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Going2BeADoctor said:
I’m going with the flow as best I can, but I just wanted to vent about this. I just can’t believe the price tag associated with this six weeks of seemingly useless content.
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That’s fair! My biggest frustrations with medical school are when I feel like my time is being wasted so I completely sympathize. i can say one thing for certain though, it is extremely difficult to separate the science from the person. So their community, insurance, etc., all that jazz will be at play in ways you would be surprised by. Recently had a patient we couldn’t discharge to SNF because he had 1 expensive med that no facility wanted to deal with. Things like that, so being aware for better or worse is necessary.
 
There are things you'll learn about kidney physiology you may never use again. But that info will be important for the future nephrologists to build off of.

Similarly, you may have colleagues who will engage in public health initiatives and/or research and need to understand concepts of engaging populations. (Just TRY going cold straight into a predominantly black community trying to do even a totally legit study on syphilis).

The information very well could be not that useful to your future, so you are valid in feeling the way you do. I just mention those things above to hopefully help you feel a bit better about it. Try to reframe it and think of it as helpful to some colleagues just how there will be things you learn over the next few years that will be a lot more relevant to your future but maybe not as much to others.

I admit, that seems like an excessive amount of time to spend on those topics at the beginning, but it sounds like the floodgates are about to open. 🙂
 
I had a similar experience with 'soft skills' in a course I took during an MPH on project planning. I even at one point at the beginning of the course had the hubris to raise my hand and ask why any of this planning stuff was important and why we had to know it.

Years down the line I use the skills and knowledge I got from that course more than any other MPH course I took.
 
Going2BeADoctor said:
I started med school about six weeks ago, and we have yet to start learning basic sciences. Most of the things we have gone over are irrelevant to practicing medicine (at least in my opinion, but what do I know) or just plain common sense. We’ve spent weeks learning about culture, how to engage communities, discussing professionalism, etc. We’re finally starting sciences next week, but this has just been a very frustrating month and a half. It feels like wasted time, effort, and money (cause tuition ain’t cheap).

Does anyone else feel similarly?
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In reality, the stuff you're learning right now will likely be more important to you in day-to-day practice than the steps of the Krebs cycle. Medicine is about people, the things that affect their health (some internal, some external) and how you can help improve it. All the biochem knowledge in the world is irrelevant if you can't understand why your patient isn't taking their medications and as a result you can't help to find a solution that makes it easier for them to do so.

 
sad but true statement, get out now before you're too deep because the bs never ends and you will always have to deal with this sort of thing
 
hopefully they are frontloading it and P/F step hasn't made curriculums go off the deep end

i always find ethics and professionalism stuff is too touchy feely and not really enough "do this not that". some people just need to be told how to read the room, or not to crack jokes when rounding right outside a really sick person's room, not to awkwardly crowd in the room when a patient is sundowning, or to shut up when a resident has 20 notes to write and doesn't want to small talk

i remember this awful seminar we had on like religious preferences in medicine with a priest, rabbi, and an imam. nonsense. as if instead of asking the patient and their family for preferences we are going to think back to this seminar and do what the rabbi said for someone with a jewish surname?

That being said a few techniques at diffusing upset patients, SPIKES, etc. are definitely useful.
 
Going2BeADoctor said:
I started med school about six weeks ago, and we have yet to start learning basic sciences. Most of the things we have gone over are irrelevant to practicing medicine (at least in my opinion, but what do I know) or just plain common sense. We’ve spent weeks learning about culture, how to engage communities, discussing professionalism, etc. We’re finally starting sciences next week, but this has just been a very frustrating month and a half. It feels like wasted time, effort, and money (cause tuition ain’t cheap).

Does anyone else feel similarly?
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Academia is quite “woke” now.
 
I hate professionalism classes… it’s like they assume we haven’t been human beings for the past 20+ (in my case 30+) years of our lives. Oh we’re not supposed to be jerks to other healthcare professionals? I had no idea!
 
Going2BeADoctor said:
Indeed! We actually did have a lecture on how insurance works, and I thought that was pretty useful. I’m more just referring to the soft skills lectures, because I don’t really think those are things that can be taught in lectures. They’re important, but they need to be learned by interacting with patients/simulated patients, ya know? Being lectured on the definition of culture isn’t gonna do it.
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Yeah I can see this being frustrating and I completely agree with the bolded and I'd vent too. Just wait it out I guess.
 
Professionalism classes are important. I once did not bring my own whiteboard to an NBME final and asked if I can have/use a school’s one (they have a small number at hand). They wrote down my name and told me that if this happens again they will write me up for professionalism concern. I am sooo unprofessional. I need those classes.
 
Osteosaur said:
do what the rabbi said for someone with a jewish surname?
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Especially since there’s really no such thing as a Jewish surname, and lots of people with Jewish sounding names are, in fact, not Jewish.
 
Lawpy said:
Eh those things aren't really bs and have long term value.
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six weeks of it is. Also sitting in a lecture about professionalism is a waste as it really can't be learned in the classroom. Also professionalism is blown way out of proportion in medical school, they use that term as a catch all threat in the event you do the slightest thing the school isn't a fan of.
 
Going2BeADoctor said:
I started med school about six weeks ago, and we have yet to start learning basic sciences. Most of the things we have gone over are irrelevant to practicing medicine (at least in my opinion, but what do I know) or just plain common sense. We’ve spent weeks learning about culture, how to engage communities, discussing professionalism, etc. We’re finally starting sciences next week, but this has just been a very frustrating month and a half. It feels like wasted time, effort, and money (cause tuition ain’t cheap).

Does anyone else feel similarly?
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You don't think these are important??????
 
Cornfed101 said:
I hate professionalism classes… it’s like they assume we haven’t been human beings for the past 20+ (in my case 30+) years of our lives. Oh we’re not supposed to be jerks to other healthcare professionals? I had no idea!
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The very fact that they're giving you professionalism courses is evidence that some students need professionalism courses.
 
Cornfed101 said:
I hate professionalism classes… it’s like they assume we haven’t been human beings for the past 20+ (in my case 30+) years of our lives. Oh we’re not supposed to be jerks to other healthcare professionals? I had no idea!
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You haven't met many doctors, have you?
 
Goro said:
You don't think these are important??????
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I'm always torn on these things. On the one hand, much of what they try to teach you is not really stuff that can be taught. See my post above this one about jerk doctors. Plus, most of the cultural competency stuff that I was taught in med school is not applicable to practice that I've noticed. I've never had to involve someone's community leader to perform an exorcism while I also prescribe medicine to truly fix the problem. Yes, this was a test question in one of my professionalism type classes.

But, there is a lot to be said about at least exposing people to all the different viewpoints that are out there. I think I'd prefer it to be a much more general overview compared to some of the more weirdly specific stuff I remember learning, and that's been almost 15 years and it seems like it has gotten even more detailed in that time.
 
Cornfed101 said:
I hate professionalism classes… it’s like they assume we haven’t been human beings for the past 20+ (in my case 30+) years of our lives. Oh we’re not supposed to be jerks to other healthcare professionals? I had no idea!
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You say that, but I have seen medical students post antisemitic rants on Facebook and use antisemitic slurs in person, create cheating circles for low stakes tests, talk about patients with super insulting terms and descriptions, and more (not all of these were people from my school). Clearly some people need to be told.
 
gyngyn said:
The Medical Board has not yet revoked a license for failure to understand the Krebs cycle.
Almost all revocations are for failure to meet professional standards.
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And almost all of those are some combination of having sex with patients and illegally obtaining prescription controlled substances. I'd like to teach a class where all I do for an hour is walk around the room smack every student on the head with a rubber mallet and just yell at them to not have sex with patients and not do drugs
 
gyngyn said:
The Medical Board has not yet revoked a license for failure to understand the Krebs cycle.
Almost all revocations are for failure to meet professional standards.
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can't get a license to revoke if you don't understand the basic sciences well enough to pass boards. Also funny how all of the unprofessional, rude, racist, whatever you want to call bad behavior has occurred despite there being a class telling you not to do these things, almost as if they aren't very effective at teaching it in the classroom. Now a good talking to in the clinic, that may hit a little closer to home
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You say that, but I have seen medical students post antisemitic rants on Facebook and use antisemitic slurs in person, create cheating circles for low stakes tests, talk about patients with super insulting terms and descriptions, and more (not all of these were people from my school). Clearly some people need to be told.
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I agree, but my big concern here is does a class change behavior? If someone is really anti-semitic, will a professionalism class change anything?

I still think it's worth doing even if it only changes one person out of a thousand, FWIW.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I agree, but my big concern here is does a class change behavior? If someone is really anti-semitic, will a professionalism class change anything?

I still think it's worth doing even if it only changes one person out of a thousand, FWIW.
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No, I don’t think it will. Because that happened like a year into med school, so clearly none of our professionalism sessions got through.

I had a friend use an antisemitic slur in front of me and apologized after being educated. Maybe he says it still when I’m not around, but I haven’t heard it since.
 
It's funny reading posts like this now. I'm trying to think of think of things that are more important and there really aren't that many. The fact that they are exceptionally challenging to teach and frequently taught poorly doesn't mean we shouldn't try. There's simply no lecture that's going to make you a culturally competent physician, but a few lectures and a seminar may at least make you aware enough that down the road you consider it as you're building your own practice. I'm about to start a new job in a very different location from where I trained and would give my left testicle for a good lecture on local cultures and customs as it relates to healthcare!

Professionalism is also of vital importance despite the bad rap it gets from some students. There's something to be said for giving some instruction in this area if for no other reason than the school can later say to those who break the rules that they were warned. A good leader always sets expectations and I appreciate the faculty taking the time to make their own expectations of professionalism explicitly clear. Sure, it's common sense for most, but the true meaning of it goes much deeper. At its core, a medical school could simply have one rule: be professional at all times. The fact they have to spell out any additional rules and regulations beyond this says that too many people aren't upholding the standard.

Frontloading all of them has its pros and cons. The biggest con is that there may be value in hearing such stuff closer to your clinical years, though I'm sure there will be some refreshers down the road. The biggest pro is that you get all of this out of the way so you aren't spending 2 hours of prime study time in a mandatory lecture a few days before a big anatomy exam.
 
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I should have gone into medical education.

"Welcome med students! Do NOT have sex with your patients. Feel free to have sex with each other though. Also don't steal, lie, or cheat. If you are a racist or anti-semite it is obviously too late to change your mind so just please keep to yourself. Now onto the Krebs cycle!"
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You say that, but I have seen medical students post antisemitic rants on Facebook and use antisemitic slurs in person, create cheating circles for low stakes tests, talk about patients with super insulting terms and descriptions, and more (not all of these were people from my school). Clearly some people need to be told.
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Maybe 6 weeks of up-front training is meant to weed out some of those people right at the beginning! “Can’t deal with professionalism training? Drop out now!”
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
And almost all of those are some combination of having sex with patients and illegally obtaining prescription controlled substances. I'd like to teach a class where all I do for an hour is walk around the room smack every student on the head with a rubber mallet and just yell at them to not have sex with patients and not do drugs
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Don’t forget Medicare fraud and sham billing!
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I've never had to involve someone's community leader to perform an exorcism while I also prescribe medicine to truly fix the problem. Yes, this was a test question in one of my professionalism type classes.
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No exorcisms so far, but I will say that getting our pastoral care team involved in tough family situations has actually been hugely important on several occasions. I used to attend our monthly peds ethics meetings where cases frequently involve rifts between parents/family and the medical team, and having a cultural/religious leader build the bridge between them can be pretty successful
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You say that, but I have seen medical students post antisemitic rants on Facebook and use antisemitic slurs in person, create cheating circles for low stakes tests, talk about patients with super insulting terms and descriptions, and more (not all of these were people from my school). Clearly some people need to be told.
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But are those people really gonna change after a few hours of lecture? If you’re a jerk when you get into med school you’ll likely leave a jerk
 
Whenever I have a moment where I question why am I learning this or wouldn’t my time be better spent doing something else…My boyfriend reminds me that this should be the response.



You just have to trust that they know what they are doing even if you may not agree with all of it.
 
Cornfed101 said:
But are those people really gonna change after a few hours of lecture? If you’re a jerk when you get into med school you’ll likely leave a jerk
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Probably not but you can see why they feel like they need to at least try.
 
Cornfed101 said:
But are those people really gonna change after a few hours of lecture? If you’re a jerk when you get into med school you’ll likely leave a jerk
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Probably not, but it eliminates the "I didn't know" defense when the student ends up in a dean's office or before a faculty committee.
 
I’m with everybody that the values they are trying to teach us are important, but required professionalism lectures are such bs. It’s behavioral stuff your parents should’ve taught you long ago, 25 years old is too late if you don’t already know how to interact with your peers or treat people professionally, etc. unless you’re just insanely immature/were spoiled in which case you might eventually grow up (lots of these types in med school). Plus, 90% of the people in the class know how to act and know whats right or wrong (as do 90% of all adults), and it’s the 10% who are immature, cause the problems, etc, that could actually use the teachings but then don’t change their behavior anyway.

I think the lectures are bs because it’s usually just a dean or social worker saying “you guys, empathy, EMPATHY, is soOooOO important! *next slide* Ok guys, now let’s talk about respect. respect is sOOoOo ImpORtAnT!” Like if you think people in the class need to hear that then I’m sorry you accepted those people in the first place. You just can‘t expect any number of required professionalism lecture hours to change people in any way. In fact I believe its main purpose is in the school’s interest to have something to point to when inevitably a student goofs up big time—“well, at least we told them not to do that when they were an M1.“

Why did I go through all of the trouble to get letters of recommendation for character reference and write a personal statement that demonstrates my beliefs and scruples and interview with 3 people who were note-taking and micro judging what I say, just for it not to matter because they’re going to lecture to me like I’m a psychopath anyway. OP I feel you, stuff is a massive waste of time.
 
A-Fib said:
Maybe it's the same school
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Nope. At our school professionalism is mixed in with the clinical medicine courses, and we start the basic Sciences right away.

I'm a firm believer in getting the students up front and personal with the cadavers immediately.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I agree, but my big concern here is does a class change behavior? If someone is really anti-semitic, will a professionalism class change anything?

I still think it's worth doing even if it only changes one person out of a thousand, FWIW.
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Now let us try to teach this to a larger class.. " SOCIETY " !!
 
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