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Burrell College of Osteopathic Medicine
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Looks pretty accurate to me having just been on the job market. I couldnt find whether those numbers are salary or total compensation so that may be part of the slight difference from other surveys.

Don’t forget that the multiple compensation models and geographic differences out there are greatly oversimplified when we think in terms of average compensation. I looked at jobs that were $200k above and below the average on this survey, so things can vary a lot.
 
Anakinmemer said:
Doximity recently came out with their 2021 report and the numbers honestly seem pretty high compared to other surveys...can any physicians comment on its accuracy?

Something that always surprises me is that anesthesia is right with derm and ophtho yet is far less competitive, and from what I understand the lifestyle is almost as good.

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I can verify that compensation is accurate for radiology.
 
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why is psych not there at all, also luckily midlevel pay is finally going down (esp considering inflation)
 
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This gives me reassurance to know it will be feasible to pay off my 300k+ loans lol. Its scary to think I will owe over a quarter million to the government.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Seems about right for FM.
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I’ve been interested in psych but FM might be the better choice financially to be honest, especially when you consider the 3y residency. Psych I feel might need to “catch up” to that extra year of physician income that FM has. In addition, FM has less of a ceiling than psych.

Another thing for M3s and M4s to consider is what could the market possibly look like 5-6 years from present day. Because the current market (such as the current anesthesia boom) has absolutely no immediate affect on med students or early residents who still have years of training left.
 
Anakinmemer said:
Doximity recently came out with their 2021 report and the numbers honestly seem pretty high compared to other surveys...can any physicians comment on its accuracy?

Something that always surprises me is that anesthesia is right with derm and ophtho yet is far less competitive, and from what I understand the lifestyle is almost as good.

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For ENT 500K avg looks high to me. It was ~440K pre-covid and as far as I know compensation dropped during the pandemic.
 
psyspy said:
I’ve been interested in psych but FM might be the better choice financially to be honest, especially when you consider the 3y residency. Psych I feel might need to “catch up” to that extra year of physician income that FM has. In addition, FM has less of a ceiling than psych.

Another thing for M3s and M4s to consider is what could the market possibly look like 5-6 years from present day. Because the current market (such as the current anesthesia boom) has absolutely no immediate affect on med students or early residents who still have years of training left.
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Psych has zero ceiling if you own your own practice
 
Some of our Rads fellows take starting pay for associate jobs or academics/VA on the west coast for X and a couple others with 1-year-to-partnership tracks in the south/midwest with the partners making around 2.25X. When taken together the average is probably around what is listed. But the difference in lifestyle and purchasing power between hypothetical $800k in Indy and $300-$350k in LA is enormous. One is genuinely wealthy while the other is upper middle class. Not saying one isn't better than the other or that living somewhere with a paycut isn't worth it for some folks, but these reports should be taken with a huge grain of salt and really should only be used for ballpark estimates. Too often you hear of this stuff influencing career decisions when the variability between jobs even in the same city can easily be multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars a year.
 
psyspy said:
I’ve been interested in psych but FM might be the better choice financially to be honest, especially when you consider the 3y residency. Psych I feel might need to “catch up” to that extra year of physician income that FM has. In addition, FM has less of a ceiling than psych.
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Pick a specialty based on your preferences, not money. That said, avg for 35-40 hours employed/non-owner psych is $275k, with $300-$450k total possible depending on efficiency/productivity. Psychologists and social workers(!!!) in my community who own large clinics and employ psychiatrists make $500k-$1 mil.
 
psyspy said:
I’ve been interested in psych but FM might be the better choice financially to be honest, especially when you consider the 3y residency. Psych I feel might need to “catch up” to that extra year of physician income that FM has. In addition, FM has less of a ceiling than psych.

Another thing for M3s and M4s to consider is what could the market possibly look like 5-6 years from present day. Because the current market (such as the current anesthesia boom) has absolutely no immediate affect on med students or early residents who still have years of training left.
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Agree with others that interest in the field should trump potential earning. That said, psych arguably has less of ceiling relative to other areas of medicine and the lowest overhead for private practice. There are also plenty of opportunities for side gigs to supplement your income beyond clinical practice that aren’t terribly time consuming and can be increasingly lucrative with experience (e.g., insurance review, IME work, forensic work - though I’d argue that the latter is more appropriate for individuals who have done a forensic fellowship or had more supervised forensic experience and know their limits within the field, but that’s my opinion and going off on a tangent). It also offers the most flexibility in how you structure your work/income over the course of your career. As far as “lost income” with being a 4 year residency v. 3, depending on the state and program it’s pretty easy to find moonlighting opportunities beginning PGY-2, and definitely PGY-3, and be within the range of typical attending pay with residency salary + moonlighting income.
 
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psyspy said:
I’ve been interested in psych but FM might be the better choice financially to be honest, especially when you consider the 3y residency. Psych I feel might need to “catch up” to that extra year of physician income that FM has. In addition, FM has less of a ceiling than psych.

Another thing for M3s and M4s to consider is what could the market possibly look like 5-6 years from present day. Because the current market (such as the current anesthesia boom) has absolutely no immediate affect on med students or early residents who still have years of training left.
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I think you might be misinformed about psych. There is no ceiling in private practice. Due to the hours, many psychiatrists also cobble together many different jobs (inpatient gig in the morning and private practice in the afternoon is the most common). There are psychiatrists in NY and CA in an all cash practice charging $500 - $600 an hour and have no trouble filling their slots. Weekend moonlighting rates in psych are between $4K - 10K per weekend depending on whether or not you sleep in a call room or go home on Saturday night. Outright salaries are approaching 300K for newly minted psychiatrists and many with a year or more of experience and/or board certification are making over 300K in salary alone, not counting bonus. Can also find lots of 20-30 hour work weeks and a lot of telepsych if you don't want to go in to the office.

Currently there's a thread on the psych forum about prison psychiatry in CA for $500K a year for a 40 hour work week. No such thing as a ceiling in psych.
 
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Radonc still raking in that much? I thought the field is super saturated.
 
Wordead said:
For ENT 500K avg looks high to me. It was ~440K pre-covid and as far as I know compensation dropped during the pandemic.
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Is it really? I thought it would be higher around like urology but not quite at ortho at 500-600. But I freely admit I know nothing about ENT salaries.
 
Another fact to remember is that there is a lot of downward pressure on compensation for many specialties going forward. Compensation in most fields is also not increasing to match inflation.
 
Lem0nz said:
Is it really? I thought it would be higher around like urology but not quite at ortho at 500-600. But I freely admit I know nothing about ENT salaries.
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It's hard to be sure but when I interviewed in 2019 I had updated MGMA numbers from my contract lawyer and it was nowhere near that high. I also interviewed all over the country and though I had a couple offers around 500-600 majority were ~400. And that was before the pandemic hit and the recent grads Ive spoken to haven't been seeing as high of offers. But who knows.
 
Mass Effect said:
I think you might be misinformed about psych. There is no ceiling in private practice. Due to the hours, many psychiatrists also cobble together many different jobs (inpatient gig in the morning and private practice in the afternoon is the most common). There are psychiatrists in NY and CA in an all cash practice charging $500 - $600 an hour and have no trouble filling their slots. Weekend moonlighting rates in psych are between $4K - 10K per weekend depending on whether or not you sleep in a call room or go home on Saturday night. Outright salaries are approaching 300K for newly minted psychiatrists and many with a year or more of experience and/or board certification are making over 300K in salary alone, not counting bonus. Can also find lots of 20-30 hour work weeks and a lot of telepsych if you don't want to go in to the office.

Currently there's a thread on the psych forum about prison psychiatry in CA for $500K a year for a 40 hour work week. No such thing as a ceiling in psych.
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Yeah prison for some reason seems to have handsome pay. I am quite curious as to why. I speculate that it's a security risk.
 
Wordead said:
It's hard to be sure but when I interviewed in 2019 I had updated MGMA numbers from my contract lawyer and it was nowhere near that high. I also interviewed all over the country and though I had a couple offers around 500-600 majority were ~400. And that was before the pandemic hit and the recent grads Ive spoken to haven't been seeing as high of offers. But who knows.
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That would be quite sad if ENT is generally that low (ie the latter 400 figure) for how competitive the field is AND how rigorous the training is.
 
psyspy said:
That would be quite sad if ENT is generally that low (ie the latter 400 figure) for how competitive the field is AND how rigorous the training is.
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There is minimal correlation between those things and compensation.

And it's a field with much better lifestyle than most of the other surgical subs and ability to adapt your practice. And you CAN make much more. But I think going out expecting 500-600 as your baseline is not realistic I think.
 
Wordead said:
It's hard to be sure but when I interviewed in 2019 I had updated MGMA numbers from my contract lawyer and it was nowhere near that high. I also interviewed all over the country and though I had a couple offers around 500-600 majority were ~400. And that was before the pandemic hit and the recent grads Ive spoken to haven't been seeing as high of offers. But who knows.
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Also important to keep in mind that your starting job in most specialties may very well be lower than what you make 2-3 years down the road in practice. 400k starting sounds pretty on par for a field that averages around 500k. It can often take time to ramp up patient volume, make partner, hit productivity bonuses, or just move up from your starter job etc. And as you recounted there were a few offers in the 500-600k range even as a new grad. So I do believe these averages, just that they may be hard to obtain on your first job depending or in your an ideal location.

I would expect to be below MGMA average in most desirable cities fresh out of residency, and then average or higher if you're working in an undesirable location. Bottom line is that it's pretty unrealistic to expect to walk into an MGMA average salary job in a desirable area fresh out of residency or fellowship.
 
Lem0nz said:
Is it really? I thought it would be higher around like urology but not quite at ortho at 500-600. But I freely admit I know nothing about ENT salaries.
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I think it’s hard to compare apples to apples between some surveys. You can see some big swings between those reporting salary and those reporting total compensation. You’ll also see differences between starting salaries and average comp across a population at multiple career points. Also a lot of sampling bias in some surveys.

Outside things like the VA and lower paying academic shops, numbers I saw this past year were pretty close to this survey if we’re talking total compensation. Some were well above. I wasn’t looking at them, but some private jobs start way under (<200) as a sweat Equity buy in toward partnership where partners are pulling in 700-1M.
 
What a lot of these surveys do not take into account are physician owned practices. Yes it is getting more difficult but there are still a TON of fields that can open up their own shop, run it the way they want, and make very generous compensation (not mentioning the 1099 benefits).
 
aduuubacsi said:
Radonc still raking in that much? I thought the field is super saturated.
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Not accurate. Biased towards academic chairs and system heads. Super saturated field. Doesn't account for massive exploitation of underpaid grads making 220K/yr and being told how to practice by their paymasters that were certainly not included in this ridiculous survey. Categorically false survey results. A truthful survey wouldn't have even put it in the top 10.
 
SurfingDoctor said:
I find these discussions all hilarious. Being a physician in general makes you at least a top 10% earner, probably close to top 5%. If you cant live and retire comfortably on that, you need to find a financial planner, not a different specialty.
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Truer words were never spoken. 👍
 
SurfingDoctor said:
I find these discussions all hilarious. Being a physician in general makes you at least a top 10% earner, probably close to top 5%. If you cant live and retire comfortably on that, you need to find a financial planner, not a different specialty.
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A point worth considering in this is the massive increase in student loan debt compared to when we finished school. In the last 10 years at my SC state school tuition for instate students has literally doubled. Back then if you had no help from parents/scholarships/whatever you'd graduate with around 160k or so in debt. Now it's more like 300k. For context, starting salary for FM in SC back then was around 160k. Now it's more like 225k.

Not saying this invalidates your point, but I do have more sympathy with current students being more concerned with money.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
A point worth considering in this is the massive increase in student loan debt compared to when we finished school. In the last 10 years at my SC state school tuition for instate students has literally doubled. Back then if you had no help from parents/scholarships/whatever you'd graduate with around 160k or so in debt. Now it's more like 300k. For context, starting salary for FM in SC back then was around 160k. Now it's more like 225k.

Not saying this invalidates your point, but I do have more sympathy with current students being more concerned with money.
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While large parts of higher education in the US are essentially Ponzi schemes, I’ve never seen a physician for lack of want. Physicians are some of highest paid professions in this country. So far, I’ve haven’t debt impair most physicians ability to retire with millions of dollars. Usually, physicians who end up with less cumulative wealth are due to 1) speculative financial decisions and 2) divorce(s).
 
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SurfingDoctor said:
While large parts of higher education in the US are essentially Ponzi schemes, I’ve never seen a physician for lack of want. Physicians are some of highest paid professions in this country. So far, I’ve haven’t debt impair most physicians ability to retire with millions of dollars. Usually, physicians who end up with less cumulative wealth are due to 1) speculative financial decisions and 2) divorce(s).
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Sure, because the crazy high debt is a fairly new thing.
 
"Physicians are top 10% earners" is quite a moot point. I guess the insistence on bringing this up explains a thing or two about how this profession has been relatively eroded in the past 2 decades. What matters is the opportunity cost people incur by becoming a doctor. And you won't understand all of it until its too late. If you're that much more astute and less naive than your classmates, you'll understand some of it while they'll understand nearly none.

And the "crazy high debt" actually doesn't negate this "top 10% earner point". The whole point is that you're eventually a top 10% earner, you'll eventually retire with lots of $$, so why should the debt when you're young even matter?
 
operaman said:
Outside things like the VA and lower paying academic shops, numbers I saw this past year were pretty close to this survey if we’re talking total compensation. Some were well above. I wasn’t looking at them, but some private jobs start way under (<200) as a sweat Equity buy in toward partnership where partners are pulling in 700-1M.
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I agree, the IM salary listed is sadly not representative of academic medicine. For IM, most academic institutions are offering low-$200's as the base and maybe mid-$200's with bonuses factored in. It's not uncommon to see some academic institutions paying <$200k - though to be fair, those jobs tend to be fairly cushy.
 
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