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[Carti]

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[renacuaja]

Depends on what school they are looking into. Some schools require that classes beyond the introductory level be taken at a 4-year institution. For some students that means only 1 year can be taken at a CC.

Some schools don't even require a 4-year degree.

Honestly, it's not like having a biology major is required (I don't have one, I studied Compsci and Stats) but I don't think it's fair to assume that history or music is automatically easier than biology. For one, the prerequisite classes already include a lot of the hardest classes within the Biology major (Genetics, Biochem, Orgo, +/- Physiology, +/- Microbiology). Also, n=1 but what dragged my GPA down the most wasn't science classes, it was English, Philosophy, Religion... etc. I would say that in many instances they require substantially more work than a class like Ecology or Evolution. Don't even get me started on Music majors-- I never took a class in it but they work HARD those classes are often a lot more effort per credit hour than the average class in college.

 

[genny]

So an undergrad degree is not a requirement for all schools, just completion of prerequisite science courses. It may be a waste of time to pursue a full 120-credit bachelor's degree. If she struggles with upper-level science courses and you're worried she would get Fs, how is she going to complete the prereqs?

Completing basic science courses at a community college as a non-degree student and then completing the upper-level science courses at a 4-year institution is a good strategy if your goal is to save money. If you're looking for the best strategy to get admitted to vet school, then you need to know which school she's targeting. Different schools have different criteria, so optimizing the application for her in-state school would be the best course of action.

 

[supershorty]

Biology/Chem/Physics 1 and upper division courses like molecular biology are on different planets (I know bc I was a biochem major and the upper division science courses were unnecessarily difficult imo.)

If someone is struggling in upper division science courses to the point of failing being a possibility, that’s an issue that needs to be addressed and a solution identified BEFORE making the main focus veterinary school. Vet school is like those courses, but 24-30 credits of them at a time. It is much too expensive of a venture to go “I’ll figure that out later” and then get there with no idea of how to study for success in those courses. Everyone has an adjustment when they start vet school and they learn how to be successful learning that amount of material, but that’s a different ball game than struggling to succeed in those types of courses when they are being taken as part of a lower credit load.

Reprioritize. She needs to focus first on figuring out how she learns and how she can succeed in the challenging science courses. Getting accepted to vet school is only one part of becoming a veterinarian. You have to be able to make it through the program, too.

 

[JaynaAli]

I know this isn’t your question, but I also feel a need to point out that being a vet isn’t necessarily the only avenue to help underserved animals. If your friend is wealthy enough to pay for vet school and not worry about the costs, donating $200,000-400,000 would go a long way to fund some sort of shelter or initiative and perhaps they could find that validation helping animals in some other non-medical way. Vet med is an option but it doesn’t have to be the only option, especially if someone may struggle with science courses. Vet school is all ‘upper division sciences’ and molecular bio and stuff absolutely comes in to play in the early coursework like physiology. Just throwing that out there. I know it’s hard to give up the dream of being a vet, but reality is often different than what you romanticize it to be and there are many ways to help animals besides being their DVM. I’m not necessarily discouraging them from pursuing a DVM, but rather encouraging them to really think about all the options and how they may be fulfilled.

 

[MBTDG]

I took all of my prerequisites at community college and an extension campus. It hasn’t impacted my application cycle but I wasn’t worried about applying to the schools that required specific upper division courses!

I know she might be worried about the material but she will get better at studying and preparing for classes. Imposter syndrome can sometimes still creep in before important exams for myself. It is all about practice and she will get in a flow as she takes more prerequisites!

I know it wasn’t asked… but I think the possibility of being a veterinary technician could also fulfill what you mentioned. I know city and county shelters around the country are expanding outreach programs to the unhoused and those on the brink of homelessness. I work/volunteer with these organizations and the technicians LOVE their jobs. It is usually a combination of pure shelter medicine and outreach. This would also (almost) guarantee she could stay in her same location. Just a thought but if she goes for it tell her good luck!

 

[genny]

If you were to optimize an acceptance to Texas A&M, any ideas on how she could approach this?

you're in luck, TAMU is one of the more transparent schools and put their criteria online: DVM Admissions

Their published minimums are a good starting point - if she's not exceeding those numbers, don't waste money applying. They even have a page with recent admissions stats: Admissions Statistics
I hope she's in-state, since for the class starting Fall 2022, there were 222 qualified out-of-state applicants, and only 8 matriculated.

 

[StartingoverVet]

The problem is, she struggles with higher level science and math. I know GPA is king, so I don't want her dreams to be ruined by two F's in third-year advanced science courses that are irrelevant to her interests. I know vet school will be much harder, but our first priority is getting her accep

Do you really think you should encourage this? If she has trouble with higher level science how can she possibly get through vet school. Meeting the requirements shouldn’t even be the issue at this point. Vet school is super hard even for people who are good at the stuff. The age and monetary situation are irrelevant (I was a similar demographic), but I can’t imagine anyone with those issues surviving. Got To be realistic.

 

[supershorty]

that's fair, but a bit premature to tell her to give up before she even begins Bio/Gen Chem 1 no? @supershorty, this would be like telling a high schooler who struggled in hs chem to avoid medical school bc they might fail analytical chemistry (i.e. an irrelevant course in the grand scheme of things). Might be better to let them take the first few courses on the track before we make a judgement here.

Obviously if she's failing intro bio we'll reconsider, but I feel if she can establish strong study habits, avoid unnecessarily difficult courses to protect her GPA, and keep her focus, she'll be fine.

That isn't what I said, and I think you know that.

You seem to be operating on the assumption that introductory level pre-requisite courses are sufficient measure of the rigor of veterinary school. They are not. You indicated that your spouse either has, or you anticipate she will, struggle in the upper division courses. It takes a lot more than passing an introductory course to set oneself up for success in vet school, which is nearly entirely composed of upper level sciences at credit levels that are far higher than any undergraduate course of study.

Your spouse needs to first figure out how she can study effectively in those difficult science courses before thinking about entering a program as rigorous as vet school. You can't run before you learn to walk, and succeeding in those science courses is the walking I'm referring to.

 

[renacuaja]

Very good point on the opportunity cost. I'll speak to her on this. I suppose the debate she'll have is which option would help the most animals. Would funding a new shelter help more animals than being a veterinarian? An interesting though for sure.

If she wants to directly help as many animals as possible then the money/opening a shelter would be a lot more useful. Or even volunteering.

 

[supershorty]

Do you see how that's a premature statement to make with the only information to go on being that she might struggle with upper division science courses?

There is nowhere in this thread where that was said.
Telling someone to focus on building up their ability to walk before they try their hand at tower running* is simply logic.

You're focused on step 6 when steps 1-5 haven't even been attempted yet, and then reading malice into posts telling you that steps 1-5 are essential for completing step 6. Essential for successfully completing step 6.

If a high schooler said "I want to go to [x advanced medical training]," my advice would be the same. Complete the necessary steps to ensure you are ready. That includes upper division science courses, whether you think that they are not applicable or not. It's not always about the material within the course, it's about learning to synthesize complex information, critically think and problem solve, which are skills you absolutely need to be successful in any professional program. That is where your friend needs to focus first.

*Also called vertical running, according to google.

 

[JaynaAli]

I am starting to think that some of the disconnect is what everyone is considering “upper division sciences” to mean. I’d consider courses to include cell and molecular bio and biochem (which are usually pre-reqs but can vary from school to school) upper sciences. So you saying you think this person can’t handle upper division sciences was telling me/us you think she won’t be successful in the prereqs. And from my perspective, why would you encourage someone to try something you think they’ll fail at? But from your last post it seems like you’re talking about taking other random high level science classes that aren’t required just for fun…and I don’t suggest anyone do that especially a non-traditional student going back to school. Take the prereqs and only the prereqs and move on if vet school is your absolute goal. Don’t waste time and money taking courses you don’t need. I think only UC Davis requires an actual degree for admission (and idk if that is even still a requirement). They don’t usually care about all those extra classes. The school I went to actually just used a prereq-only GPA as their main GPA they considered. I’d probably tell a traditional student to take other courses and get a degree as a backup plan, but the rules change a little when you’re talking about a nontrad going back to school. Just take the prereqs. Rigor, if considered at all, is likely a very small part of the overall applications formula.

You haven’t mentioned whether this person has any actual experience in the field. While GPA is very important, vet med has a MUCH bigger focus on experience hours in the field than medical school. I’d say you really need 500+ hours to truly be competitive and many, many applicants will have literally thousands of volunteer shadowing or paid employment hours in the field. Do people get in with less? Sometimes, but in vet med more hours is better and I’d argue that vet hours are equally as important as GPA in the grand scheme of admissions. If I was given applicant A who has a 4.0 with only a handful of hours and applicant B who has a 3.8 but has lots of experience in different areas of the field, the 4.0 applicant might not win. Reality of vet med is not like the idealized version starry eyed prevets and children often have so we want to be sure people know what reality is like day to day. I would strongly recommend your friend get experience in the field (and not just in shelter med, spend time in GP and in non-small animal practice) and make sure this is what she wants to do before wasting lots of time and money taking courses. And I stand by my statements of really thinking if this will fulfill that need to help animals or if it could be done another way.

 

[battie]

1) I highly recommend your friend start doing this leg work themselves. You mentioned earlier in the thread about you contacting TAMU. At this point, your friend is completely capable of posting here, doing her own research into schools, etc.

2) Being a parent is not a substitute for upper division science courses. Vet school and being a vet are infinitely easier than being a mom. Nothing has been more difficult in my life. This gets its own point just due to the absurdity of a 21 year old whom I assume is not a parent making this comparison.

3) In general, this point:

1) Are you disciplined? 2) Are you committed? 3) Are you invested?

Is true for succeeding in a professional program. However, this generalization:

Upper division science courses are an easy proxy to these questions, but almost anything else could serve just as well (industry experience, being a parent, deep ideological drive, personal ambition etc.)

Is not. This is because of the vastly different requirements each of these take to be successful compared to the details of professional school. While being a mom is the hardest thing I've ever done, I am also a much better mom than I ever was a vet student. Not because my dedication, discipline, or commitment (redundant?) are any less. It's because the skill sets are different at their cores. I'm a better vet than I ever was a student because being a doctor and being a student doctor are two completely different things. Which leads to....

4) Nearly everyone who has replied to this thread are doctors, graduated veterinarians who have all played this game, got the t-shirts, and now spend time on this forum to share our wisdom of experience. We already know the effects and influences of upper division courses because we, like you, have taken them. However, unlike you, we have completed our professional programs. Some who have replied are PhD/DVMs and some are board certified specialists as well. And while it may feel like X class has zero bearing on being a student doctor or a doctor, they're a prerequisite for a reason (which you pointed out yourself). And that reason (besides those classes laying the groundwork for more complicated or indepth information) are to *teach* the dedication. The reason these are weed out courses is not because the information is difficult in general; it's because the soft skills they teach have a steep learning curve. And while your friend in particular may have those skills in her current field, those skills are not 100% transferable from one profession to another in all people. She will have the learning curve. How steep it is depends on her as a person. Age and experience in one are don't necessarily automatically equate skill in another.

5) I am that person who struggled in upper division courses, depending on the class (F in o chem 1 and a D in dev bio, plenty of Cs too), who winged it first year of vet school. And I failed out due to academics. My level of dedication was not any less than any of my friends, and no one at work believes me when I tell them I ended last in my class when I repeated. My point here is that "figuring it out later" is a bad plan. I missed a year of graduated doctor salary, paid for another year of school, and had to repeat subjects that I hated. The consequences of not setting ones self up for success early can be devastating. I'm fortunate to have attended a school where it's easy to appeal and repeat; there are some vet schools set up where you essentially cannot repeat and are permanently dismissed.

 

[dyachei]

I urge you to consider the fact that some of the science courses you think aren't necessary (like biochem) are absolutely necessary in veterinary school which is a higher level science based course load.

I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding about what courses are necessary to practice medicine and which aren't. Critical thinking skills are great but you need to have the foundation to think through problems and that foundation is laid by upper level science courses.

Good luck to your friend

 

[genny]

If they believed their students need to take upper division biology/chemistry/physics courses to succeed in their school, they would make them required.

They are required. Texas A&M requires upper level biochem, genetics, and animal nutrition. They specify jr/sr level courses.