18D vs Masters

[noquarter1]

I was hoping I could get your opinion on this subject. I'm currently in the military, and have plans to apply to med school at the end of my enlistment in a few years. My GPA is weaker (3.2), and so I'm looking for ways to make myself more competitive. Two options I'm considering are either becoming an 18D to show a passion and certain level of capability for medicine , or going and getting a biology graduate degree through Green to Gold to show competency in graduate level courses and hopefully bump the GPA a bit. I already attended selection and was selected as an 18D, but now I'm doubting how much being an 18D would really compensate for a weak GPA (I've got a 31 MCAT, if that matters). I could try and do both, but I'm not getting any younger and that would push med school back even further. Any advice, or suggestions for paths I've not thought of are greatly appreciated. Thanks.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Gastrapathy]

Neither plan. You need to get out and do a post-bacc. Then use your GI bill for med school.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

 

[noquarter1]

Neither plan. You need to get out and do a post-bacc. Then use your GI bill for med school.


Sent from my iPhone 6 using Tapatalk

Thanks for the quick reply. I've thought about that, and if I don't do the masters, I'll use the bill to help pay for med school. That just pushes med school back even further (but may be necessary, not arguing that) due to waiting to fulfill my contract, and then doing the post-bacc. I'm hoping to try and use my remaining time to further my cause. If the army would ever post their application for the post-bacc at USUHS I'd be all over that, but in the meantime, my contract is severely limiting my options.

 

[Shikima]

Don't worry about the age part, plenty of "later in life" guys go back and get into med school. Enjoy your selection for 18D and rock it - this is the time in your life to do this kind of work and medicine will always be there! You can do a post-bac/masters program later on and use your GI Bill to pay for schooling.

 

[Intrstd Party]

How about the Enlisted to Medicine program? www.usuhs.mil/vpe/releases/Release14-06-26.docx and http://www.usuhs.edu/adm/emdp2.html

 

[pgg]

There are a lot of applicants to medical school each year. The admission process is therefore very much a numbers game. Showing interest / passion for medicine is nebulous and vague; adcoms care very very little about so-called extracurricular things like that. If you want to do the 18D path because you want to be an 18D, great. However, be wary of dedicating a big chunk of your life to a task that realistically won't improve your odds for admission much.


You need a degree from a reputable university. Patchwork degrees from multiple sources put together while enlisted aren't always a dealkiller but they are a disadvantage, especially if the gpa is borderline.

You need a competive gpa and MCAT. The best way to boost a gpa may be a postbac or masters program.

EMDP2 may be a reasonable option for you. Give the very, very long service commitment some thought though.

 

[narcusprince]

I would suggest applying broadly loosely to MD programs but hit all the DO programs. I know plenty of folks with weaker numbers that made it. Get out go DO and work HARD in medical school.

 

[UltimateDO]

I have one of my 18D who is in the application cycle for Campbell and know another one at the Group level who is doing the same. Campbell appears that it is going to be pretty 18D friendly since they know what is entailed in the training. That said you will still need to meet criteria but SF extracurriculars are understood and credited. If you do go down the SOCM / 18D path, understand that you will be delaying your med school plans as you will be expected to get your team time in before continuing to school.

PM me with questions that myself or my D can help you with.

 

[noquarter1]

Thanks for all the input. I think I'm going to apply to the EMDP2 at USUHS. The army posted today the requirements and application procedure (with one week to submit, naturally), and I think that program fits me best. After some input here and calling some schools, it makes sense because my grades will hold me back more than clinical/volunteer/medical experience, as those can be made up in other ways which don't involve two years of suck out at MacKall. Also, after some soul searching I realized, that as cool as being an 18D would be, I'd rather be a doctor a few years sooner. The EMDP2 is a bit of a long shot, I know the AF only have 5 in their first class, but if I don't apply the answer's already no. I'll update the post when I get an answer. If accepted, I'll keep a running log so any future enlisted guys can know more details about the program.

 

[Shikima]

If EMDP2 doesn't work out, can you still go the 18D route retroactively?

 

[noquarter1]

To the best of my knowledge, yes. Once selected, your selection is 'good' for two years, meaning I could reapply for the Q without having to go through selection again. That's why I'm trying this first, because if it doesn't work out, I can still go back and try and do that route. I guess it works the other way too; I could try to become an 18D, and if that doesn't work out (or even if it does), do post-bacc later, but I like this more, because it allows me to (hopefully) become a doctor sooner. As UltimateDO mentioned, I'd owe SF more time before being able to go back to school if I went SF.

 

[joshuak172]

Hey no Quarter, my name is Josh. I am in the military and also submitted a packet on Wednesday. have you heard anything back yet? I was under the impression we would hear something by today but of course in usual I'm army fashion I would expect it to take a few more days.

 

[noquarter1]

From the EMDP2 Facebook page...

"Update for all of you who are anxiously waiting on the Army application selection process.

The Army board was held yesterday. The USU board is scheduled for Monday morning. Based on the number of fully qualified candidates, they will send USU at least five from which we will select up to five.

Army leadership will notify the selectees shortly after the USU board adjourns. We expect the Army will also notify the non-selects at this time. Report date for selectees is NLT 10 August."

I'm hoping for Monday. How was getting that application for you? It was like pulling teeth in my unit. Most everyone wanted to dismiss me, saying it was impossible to get all that in such a short time frame. It definitely wasn't my strongest packet I've ever put together, so we'll see. In the meantime, I'll just sit over here and twiddle my thumbs anxiously while I wait to hear back. Good luck to you.

 

[joshuak172]

From the EMDP2 Facebook page...

"Update for all of you who are anxiously waiting on the Army application selection process.

The Army board was held yesterday. The USU board is scheduled for Monday morning. Based on the number of fully qualified candidates, they will send USU at least five from which we will select up to five.

Army leadership will notify the selectees shortly after the USU board adjourns. We expect the Army will also notify the non-selects at this time. Report date for selectees is NLT 10 August."

I'm hoping for Monday. How was getting that application for you? It was like pulling teeth in my unit. Most everyone wanted to dismiss me, saying it was impossible to get all that in such a short time frame. It definitely wasn't my strongest packet I've ever put together, so we'll see. In the meantime, I'll just sit over here and twiddle my thumbs anxiously while I wait to hear back. Good luck to you.

Hey, thanks for the quick reply. It certainly was a struggle to get that packet together in very short order. How did you go about getting your letters of recommendation?. I am very curious how many qualified applicants made it in by the deadline. Either way, it is an incredibly good program.

What unit are you in and what's your background if you don't mind me asking? I wish you the best of luck as well.!

 

[noquarter1]

PM sent.

 

[Package Guy]

I am interested in pursuing the 18D option based on some recent life changes. Does anybody have connections to or served personally as an 18D?

I want to enlist in the Army as an E-4 and get an 18X contract. I have a postbacc masters degree from a competitive program at an academic medical center. I did research and got good grades in my postbacc but I have put my medical school plans on hold. I don’t mind playing the long game and getting time on the teams. I am not looking at being an 18D just to look good for med school admissions. I really don’t need it.

I realize that I want to be an 18D and get time down range, more than I want to be a doctor right now.

 

[DMBandFan86]

So what’s that have to do with a physician forum? I would look to an enlisted SF forum.

 

[Just Call Me Doc]

I am interested in pursuing the 18D option based on some recent life changes. Does anybody have connections to or served personally as an 18D?

I want to enlist in the Army as an E-4 and get an 18X contract. I have a postbacc masters degree from a competitive program at an academic medical center. I did research and got good grades in my postbacc but I have put my medical school plans on hold. I don’t mind playing the long game and getting time on the teams. I am not looking at being an 18D just to look good for med school admissions. I really don’t need it.

I realize that I want to be an 18D and get time down range, more than I want to be a doctor right now.

I am familiar with the 18D process. You can DM me with questions if you'd like.

The big thing is that you have to remember is to keep your expectations low. Everyone wants to be a SEAL/SF/insert-other-SOF-operator but the reality of the selection process is that most people get weeded out, even Olympic level athletes. So I'd make sure you'd be okay with having to finish your enlistment with a less cool-guy MOS. If you know you'd regret not trying and can live with the worst-case scenario, then go for it.

So what’s that have to do with a physician forum? I would look to an enlisted SF forum.

Most of the posters on the enlisted SF forum are in high school and don't have the additional aspiration of becoming a doctor. This is actually probably the more appropriate forum given there are at least a few of us with both experiences. Hard to find this unique combination elsewhere.

 

[Package Guy]

I am interested in pursuing the 18D option based on some recent life changes. Does anybody have connections to or served personally as an 18D?

I want to enlist in the Army as an E-4 and get an 18X contract. I have a postbacc masters degree from a competitive program at an academic medical center. I did research and got good grades in my postbacc but I have put my medical school plans on hold. I don’t mind playing the long game and getting time on the teams. I am not looking at being an 18D just to look good for med school admissions. I really don’t need it.

I realize that I want to be an 18D and get time down range, more than I want to be a doctor right now.

I have people that are older than me and smarter than me telling me that it would be a mistake to enlist. Maybe they are right. I don’t know.

What I do know is that the pipeline to 18D is no walk in the park and it is not guaranteed that I will get selected.

I also know that I did not just do any ordinary postbacc. It was at a top 50 in the nation medical school/academic med center. I took systems physiology, pharmacology, gross anatomy, neuroanatomy, medical ethics, case based learning, and medical genetics. I did research in Emergency Medicine and Trauma Surgery. I check all the boxes for med school except the MCAT.

Stats

Undergrad overall GPA: 3.1
Undergrad science GPA: 2.9
Grad overall GPA: 3.6
Grad science GPA: 3.4

Shadowing: 110 hours
Volunteering: 200 hours
Patient care: 1400 hours
Non-traditional student
Compelling personal statement (back-story)
Bilingual (Spanish)
Research

MCAT
1st attempt: 492 (21%)
2nd attempt: 497 (32%)

GRE: 306 (+50%)

The MCAT is what is holding me back. Last I checked on the AAMC MCAT acceptance data with my grades I need at least a 508 (76%) to be competitive. To get into the postbacc I took the GRE which I did well in.

I have 3 dependents and just got through a divorce which will leave me better off than before (family drama, cluster B in-law, co-dependency, mental baggage, etc.) I can go IRR or active duty and my kids will be okay. If I leave the state my kids will also be okay. They just need health insurance and I need a way to pay for me to go to school full-time. 30 YO. Will need medical waivers for past surgical hx.

The allure of 18D is getting paid for top-tier medic training and experience that can be a stepping stone to med school once my kids are older.

Army HPSP or USUHS is within reach. My state school and maybe 15 other MD schools are also within reach.

Thoughts?

 

[DeadCactus]

Listen to people's advice, consider it within the context of their experience and authority on the subject, and decide if it applies to your situation. The amount of useless advise on the military, special operation, and medicine coming from people with no experience with any of it always astounds me. Considering rare paths like this are difficult because there are very few people who have done it and you end up having to consolidate information from people who have done parts it and filter out information from people who have done none of it.

The Pre-Med forum is going to be better for giving you input on how competitive your application actually is; the majority of posters here are too far removed.

I'm not in a position to give advice but here are some considerations:

1) I'm trying not to read to much into your language because the internet is bad at conveying sentiment but I don't think anyone would recommend the special operations route if that's not the primary goal. It's one thing to have a post-military plan, but it's not really the kind of thing you pursue as a stepping stone to boost a medical school application.
2) Selection rate is about 1/3 and that's out of already highly qualified and motivated people. What happens if you aren't selected and are you comfortable with that outcome?
3) You don't get to choose what flavor of 18X you are. I'd imagine someone with the desire, aptitude, and relevant background would have better than average odds on getting assigned 18D but you really need to consider how comfortable you would be making it through the whole process and ending up in another role.
4) You're looking at a year or more largely away from home for the initial training and then many months out of the year gone from home for deployments and training for the remainder of your time in service. It's challenging for any family and it sounds like you have extra challenges; no one can tell you what the right answer is for you but it needs to be seriously considered.
5) IRR is not the Reserves or Guard. IRR is mostly just means your name is on a list to get pulled back into service if the military needs it.

 

[Package Guy]

Listen to people's advice, consider it within the context of their experience and authority on the subject, and decide if it applies to your situation. The amount of useless advise on the military, special operation, and medicine coming from people with no experience with any of it always astounds me. Considering rare paths like this are difficult because there are very few people who have done it and you end up having to consolidate information from people who have done parts it and filter out information from people who have done none of it.

This is one of my problems. Those who are ignorant of the subject matter profess to be experts (Dunning-Kruger effect). Everybody and their brother likes to talk about their uncle who served or a brother who served. In reality, very few people actually do. My dad is a former Air Force pilot (20 year guy) so I have some feel for what the military is like. I'm not going into this completely cold. However he knows nothing about medicine and Spec Ops. And I do not profess to know exactly what it is like to serve.

From what I can tell Special Operations is a rarer breed than physicians. I will be seeking out a Special Operations recruiter this week to get more questions answered. The SF enlisted forum has also helped.

As far as reaching former or current Spec Ops guys, they don’t exactly shout from the rooftops what they do (did) and who they are for good reason. I have been networking through some back channels to get firsthand knowledge.

1) I'm trying not to read to much into your language because the internet is bad at conveying sentiment but I don't think anyone would recommend the special operations route if that's not the primary goal. It's one thing to have a post-military plan, but it's not really the kind of thing you pursue as a stepping stone to boost a medical school application.

I hear this a lot. I don't want to be misunderstood. I do not have plans to attend medical school. However, I have invested a lot of time and resources into pursuing it, so there are sunk costs to consider. I don't want to be a physician today. I don't think I will want to be a physician tomorrow but I cannot tell if I will want to be one in five years or ten years. I love medicine. But I need to close that chapter of my life and move on.

2) Selection rate is about 1/3 and that's out of already highly qualified and motivated people. What happens if you aren't selected and are you comfortable with that outcome?

I am comformable with that. I would be happy with 68W or another MOS. I could drop a green to gold packet (commission) once I am in and get some enlisted experience. I just want to have the opportunity to serve. I want the Green Beret or Ranger tap, or some sort of selection so I don't get killed by some private who just got out of high school and barely passed the ASVAB. It is less an ego thing for me than it is just a matter of practicality.

4) You're looking at a year or more largely away from home for the initial training and then many months out of the year gone from home for deployments and training for the remainder of your time in service. It's challenging for any family and it sounds like you have extra challenges; no one can tell you what the right answer is for you but it needs to be seriously considered.

No easy answers here. The way I am looking at it I am in a better situation than I was in before but with kids involved it gets messy. I don't know what it will be like for them if I am away for training or deployments. Their mom got remarried right after the divorce, so she has a stable living situation with her now husband and his kids.

 

[DMBandFan86]

Maybe I am reading this wrong, but again, you are asking physicians about SF training and also say you don't want to go to medical school. I don't really think this is the best resource to help you. But, I'll add things to my answers below for some advice about medical school (if you ever change your mind). Your test scores are pretty underwhelming. If you do ever decide to go to medical school you would probably be better off applying to a lot of DO schools as well and will need to get your MCAT up (which will just get harder as you distance yourself from academics).

Everyone’s path on life is different. But typically, if you wanted to be AD enlisted, you would have joined out of high school, served 4 years+, then gone to college / med school. Or just stayed in and tried your chances at SF. Alternatively, you would join after acceptance to medical school, during residency or after residency. If you joined out of high school you could already be almost half-way to retirement.

Many people join the military after some 'life event.' I suspected this was the case in your first post and you confirmed it later. However, I would not recommend joining because of some difficulty you are having. A lot of times, peoples' issues pass before they ship off to training and they wish they didn't join. Then they dislike the military because it wasn't what they thought it would be. The military is not going to fix your life or 'close the chapter on your life;' it will just add another issue. Especially when you realize how disorganized the military actually is. If you ever want to go to medical school, the admissions-team might see someone who is slightly reckless (completed master's degree, went through divorce, then jumped straight into SF/ranger). You'd be better going the reserve option at this point if you every wanted to go to medical school.

Financially, you are taking a huge hit on your expected future income by not going to medical school. I don't know if you really fully grasp that. If you really want to join the military, I think you would be much better off enlisting in the AR or NG. Do a year of AD training and then get back into whatever you need to do to get a career started.


As someone who did 68W training (this was mentioned as an option in your last post), I don’t really know if you are sure what you are signing up for. You will be learning the basics of the basics of trauma care. Someone with a masters degree and your level of education is not going to be satisfied. I can tell you first hand, it is boring. Most of your time will be laying around not doing anything. Sure, if you make SF, you will function eventually like a paramedic. But that is not a normal route for soldier.

BTW, What is your current SF home training? Are you running 10 miles a day with rocks on you back in combat boots and then swimming in a freezing lake for an hour before breakfast? Just curious how dedicated you are to this and what your prep has been. Maybe it doesn't matter too much, in basic training you will just get out of shape - if you were already fit to begin with.

Edit: also at your age, you should really have a solid 5 year plan and a solid 10 year plan with this kind of move. Please say you have one and that this is working to achieve something that will help you in the future as well.

 

[Package Guy]

As someone who did 68W training (this was mentioned as an option in your last post), I don’t really know if you are sure what you are signing up for. You will be learning the basics of the basics of trauma care. Someone with a masters degree and your level of education is not going to be satisfied. I can tell you first hand, it is boring. Most of your time will be laying around not doing anything. Sure, if you make SF, you will function eventually like a paramedic. But that is not a normal route for soldier.

I am ignorant on what the depth of the training is like. This is useful for me to know.

BTW, What is your current SF home training? Are you running 10 miles a day with rocks on you back in combat boots and then swimming in a freezing lake for an hour before breakfast? Just curious how dedicated you are to this and what your prep has been. Maybe it doesn't matter too much, in basic training you will just get out of shape - if you were already fit to begin with.

I am working to get my 5 mile run time down to 40 minutes. I will be adding weight once I get more miles in my legs.

Edit: also at your age, you should really have a solid 5 year plan and a solid 10 year plan with this kind of move. Please say you have one and that this is working to achieve something that will help you in the future as well.

I had a solid 5 year plan for my mid-20s. Now I am going back to the drawing board and rethinking some things for the next 5 year and 10 year plan.