2 IA - Now what?

[zoyabrekker]

Hello everyone!
I'm new to SDN so here's my situation:

I am currently a junior biomedical engineering major applying next cycle (taking a gap year), with a GPA about 3.9 and planning to take MCAT in August (hoping to score over 515). ECs including leadership in clubs + sorority, on campus peer leadership job, research in my undergrad (and recently got accepted to a research position at a neighboring medical school), hospital volunteering, scribing (recently got promoted to Chief!), and during my gap year I'm planning to take a full time research position at the medical school and also try EMT training + volunteering over that year as well. I should also hopefully have good LOR writers Lots of personal hobbies as well

Now here's the problem:

My freshman year, I was issued a warning for an alcohol IA. I took responsibility for my actions (underage drinking) and I did not engage in that behavior again.
My sophomore year, (this is more serious), I was writing an essay for a class and used some of my notes that I had taken on the assigned topic when writing the essay. I had written the notes quite a while before writing the essay and I was also writing the essay while I had guests over, and I allowed myself to become distracted and careless. As a result, I didn't realize that some of my notes were word for word from textbook, medical websites, and other resources. When I submitted the essay and it was put through Turnitin, it obviously showed an extent of plagiarism, and my professor notified me on a comment on my Canvas submission that she was disappointed in me and sending it to the dean. I emailed her with a revised version of the essay and stated it was unintentional, but she said it was already at the discretion of the dean so she couldn't do anything.
I had a meeting with the dean and explained my situation, and took full responsibility for my carelessness. He indicated in the report that is on file that I said it was unintentional etc. Obviously, there can be no real proof if it is really unintentional or not, and regardless a portion of the essay was not in my own words, so I ended up with a 0 on my assignment, no mark on my transcript, and I pass/failed the class (because it was during COVID that was an option). I recently met with the Dean who is very kind and helpful and he said that he would be able to write a LOR indicating that I was cooperative and took responsibility for my actions, etc.

The Dean's note on the document for the case on file is as follows:

"Specific to this case, you were alleged to have plagiarized the work of another author without appropriate citation. In response,
you took responsibility for the behavior, although you indicated it was not intentional. You described your preparation process including the creation of a note sheet which you inadvertently, per your statement, submitted as your work. It was not until you were flagged that you looked back to see your error. Moving forward we discussed actions you can take to reduce the risk of such behavior including a thorough review of the academic conduct code."

I'm taking a gap year after college because I need more time to get my application together, but also because I want to distance myself from these incidents. I allowed myself make careless mistakes and did not pay attention to what I was doing, and I was immature. Both of these incidents were during lockdown, and I know this is an excuse heard often, but I feel as though during the pandemic my life stayed stagnant and I did not really experience anything or grow from the 17 year old I was when I graduated high school. After my life started moving forward at 19 years old, after these incidents, I started really paying attention to myself and my surroundings, and making sure that I essentially don't half-ass anything or assume I'm doing something right like I did with the essay. I got my first two jobs and volunteering positions and definitely started being much more independent and careful after these incidents.

I spoke to the Dean and he said that if asked, both incidences would be reported as they are on file, even if they are just warnings or not indicated on my transcript.
I would greatly appreciate any advice or input from @Goro @LizzyM @gyngyn @gonnif @Catalystik @Angus Avagadro @lord999 @Mr.Smile12

What are my chances??

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[Goro]

My sophomore year, (this is more serious), I was writing an essay for a class and used some of my notes that I had taken on the assigned topic when writing the essay. I had written the notes quite a while before writing the essay and I was also writing the essay while I had guests over, and I allowed myself to become distracted and careless. As a result, I didn't realize that some of my notes were word for word from textbook, medical websites, and other resources.

What I read between the lines is "I was distracted by my guests and instead of being responsible, I panicked just plagiarized so I could have something to submit."

The first IA can be blown off, we were all young and stupid once. But the second puts your judgement into question, and Adcoms tend to shy away from people with poor judgement.

 

[zoyabrekker]

My sophomore year, (this is more serious), I was writing an essay for a class and used some of my notes that I had taken on the assigned topic when writing the essay. I had written the notes quite a while before writing the essay and I was also writing the essay while I had guests over, and I allowed myself to become distracted and careless. As a result, I didn't realize that some of my notes were word for word from textbook, medical websites, and other resources.

What I read between the lines is "I was distracted by my guests and instead of being responsible, I panicked just plagiarized so I could have something to submit."

The first IA can be blown off, we were all young and stupid once. But the second puts your judgement into question, and Adcoms tend to shy away from people with poor judgement.

Thank you for your input. Truly, that's not what happened for the second one - I knew the assignment was going to go through Turnitin so plagiarizing would have been dumb regardless. Is there any way to phrase that better? If I panicked and plagiarized, it wouldn't have made sense for me to check the box on Canvas that indicates there will be a plagiarism checker. It's more like I got used to writing essays and getting As so I didn't really think that it would be a big deal if I just copy pasted from my old notes - I didn't think to go back and make sure my notes were not from an alternate source because I wasn't really focused. It was a lapse in judgment, but not one of honesty.

For context, the guests over were my cousin (a surgeon) and his fiancee (also a doctor). In their presence I was not really swayed to cheat LOL.

 

[zoyabrekker]

My sophomore year, (this is more serious), I was writing an essay for a class and used some of my notes that I had taken on the assigned topic when writing the essay. I had written the notes quite a while before writing the essay and I was also writing the essay while I had guests over, and I allowed myself to become distracted and careless. As a result, I didn't realize that some of my notes were word for word from textbook, medical websites, and other resources.

What I read between the lines is "I was distracted by my guests and instead of being responsible, I panicked just plagiarized so I could have something to submit."

The first IA can be blown off, we were all young and stupid once. But the second puts your judgement into question, and Adcoms tend to shy away from people with poor judgement.

The way you put it is sort of accurate - yes, I was thinking "Hey, let's just copy paste these old notes I wrote a few months ago so I can submit this essay and be done". The only difference is that I thought that I was copy pasting things I wrote, not stuff from other sources. I didn't read through it properly and in the end there were pieces that I had not written myself whenever I created that note-sheet. I hope that clarifies some things.

 

[LeeSin]

The way you put it is sort of accurate - yes, I was thinking "Hey, let's just copy paste these old notes I wrote a few months ago so I can submit this essay and be done". The only difference is that I thought that I was copy pasting things I wrote, not stuff from other sources. I didn't read through it properly and in the end there were pieces that I had not written myself whenever I created that note-sheet. I hope that clarifies some things.

I have an IA similar to your second one. I think what you should take from Goro's response is that you have to own it. The #1 piece of advice everyone gives is that when you report it, don't make excuses. Having guests over doesn't change how you plagiarized, and adcoms won't care about that extra tidbit. It really is a long process of recovery and growth. My #1 piece of advice to you looking back is don't take the MCAT "hoping to score X". Study for a year (shoot I mean you're gonna take one off at least right?) and absolutely destroy it.

Please PM me if you want to talk more

 

[zoyabrekker]

I have an IA similar to your second one. I think what you should take from Goro's response is that you have to own it. The #1 piece of advice everyone gives is that when you report it, don't make excuses. Having guests over doesn't change how you plagiarized, and adcoms won't care about that extra tidbit. It really is a long process of recovery and growth. My #1 piece of advice to you looking back is don't take the MCAT "hoping to score X". Study for a year (shoot I mean you're gonna take one off at least right?) and absolutely destroy it.

Please PM me if you want to talk more

Thank you! Yes you're right, I included the guests part here just for context of the situation, but in the end it's not something that adcoms need to know or would care about. Would it matter that it was unintentional - more of a carelessness thing than an honesty thing? And yes, I've been studying for quite a while now, and I am taking one year off as of right now.

 

[candbgirl]

Thank you! Yes you're right, I included the guests part here just for context of the situation, but in the end it's not something that adcoms need to know or would care about. Would it matter that it was unintentional - more of a carelessness thing than an honesty thing? And yes, I've been studying for quite a while now, and I am taking one year off as of right now.

Why would it matter? It’s only your word. And you haven’t even begun to accept responsibility for the mess. Academic dishonesty is a tough thing to overcome and it can take awhile. So take a deep breath and figure out how to proceed. But you have to start by accepting that this is serious and you aren’t going to be able to explain it away by saying your doctor cousin and his wife, also a doctor were witnesses(unknowing).
Even the Dean’s letter or notes or whatever they are don’t exonerate you at all. He repeats everything you said and credits you for the statements. At no point does he declare you just confused and innocent.

And @Goro is right. Your first IA is nothing to worry about in most circumstances.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

It will be extremely difficult. I had a top gpa (highest Latin honors plus other awards) at an Ivy and a 521. The red flag in my app led me to only get 2 acceptances at low tier schools.

Based on previous results without the red flag, I was probably a shoe in for T20

My red flag was worse but I think application strength equalizes the situation in this case.

Tldr: it will hurt and you will need to apply extremely broadly to have any chance. By broadly, I mean 50+ schools

 

[zoyabrekker]

Why would it matter? It’s only your word. And you haven’t even begun to accept responsibility for the mess. Academic dishonesty is a tough thing to overcome and it can take awhile. So take a deep breath and figure out how to proceed. But you have to start by accepting that this is serious and you aren’t going to be able to explain it away by saying your doctor cousin and his wife, also a doctor were witnesses(unknowing).
Even the Dean’s letter or notes or whatever they are don’t exonerate you at all. He repeats everything you said and credits you for the statements. At no point does he declare you just confused and innocent.

And @Goro is right. Your first IA is nothing to worry about in most circumstances.

Thank you for your take. I know it was my actions that led to this situation, and I have taken steps in my academic career to make sure this never happens again, double and triple checking every action that I take and staying extremely organized. There are many ways I could have avoided this situation but I chose to take the easy way out instead of really trying, because I was used to getting As without trying and I thought nothing would change. It was an immature way of thinking that I have tried my best to grow from.

I definitely do not want to explain this away - it's not something I am trying to hide, as it happened and there is nothing I can do about it except to try to move forward with it. I am just not sure how to proceed.

 

[zoyabrekker]

It will be extremely difficult. I had a top gpa (highest Latin honors plus other awards) at an Ivy and a 521. The red flag in my app led me to only get 2 acceptances at low tier schools.

Based on previous results without the red flag, I was probably a shoe in for T20

My red flag was worse but I think application strength equalizes the situation in this case.

Tldr: it will hurt and you will need to apply extremely broadly to have any chance. By broadly, I mean 50+ schools

Thanks for the input! What would you consider a "low tier" school? Also, how broadly did you apply?

 

[zoyabrekker]

Why would it matter? It’s only your word. And you haven’t even begun to accept responsibility for the mess. Academic dishonesty is a tough thing to overcome and it can take awhile. So take a deep breath and figure out how to proceed. But you have to start by accepting that this is serious and you aren’t going to be able to explain it away by saying your doctor cousin and his wife, also a doctor were witnesses(unknowing).
Even the Dean’s letter or notes or whatever they are don’t exonerate you at all. He repeats everything you said and credits you for the statements. At no point does he declare you just confused and innocent.

And @Goro is right. Your first IA is nothing to worry about in most circumstances.

I also understand it's only my word, but would you say it's better to say I was intentionally being dishonest when that's not the truth? I would believe that it's better to tell the truth regardless of how it may seem to others. At what point does "I used notes that I did not properly read through before using, and consequently assumed they were entirely composed of my own words when that was not the case; If I had, I would have realized the mistake I was about to make," become an excuse? Genuine question - I want to take responsibility, accept my actions, and move forward without making excuses. I also don't want to lie and say I had intentions that I did not. The actions, of course, regardless of my intentions, were my fault. Plagiarism is plagiarism, and the act of submitting the paper, unknowningly or not, was dishonest.

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

A school that people on sdn would say is “low tier”

USMD but unlikely to lead to a fancy, prestigious residency or anything.

I applied to 50 schools, got 15 interviews, 2 As.

Don’t get me wrong, I am very grateful that I will get to be a doctor (and plan to take advantage of the opportunities that I will have at the school) will little to no debt, but I would have received many more As post interview if not for the red flag, I am not a bad interviewer considering the acceptances I received in a previous cycle and job interview results.

 

[zoyabrekker]

A school that people on sdn would say is “low tier”

USMD but unlikely to lead to a fancy, prestigious residency or anything.

I applied to 50 schools, got 15 interviews, 2 As.

Don’t get me wrong, I am very grateful that I will get to be a doctor (and plan to take advantage of the opportunities that I will have at the school) will little to no debt, but I would have received many more As post interview if not for the red flag, I am not a bad interviewer considering the acceptances I received in a previous cycle and job interview results.

Oooh, gotcha. I would consider that perfectly fine LOL. I'm planning to apply to hopefully 30-40 schools, wide range wide net, MD/DO. Do you think I could PM you to talk?

 

[voxveritatisetlucis]

Yes, but I might not get back to you until tomorrow afternoon or night depending upon how busy I am at work

 

[LizzyM]

You will have more years between your transgressions and your application than @voxveritatisetlucis had and less serious infractions. You should be fine with 25 applications well targeted per your entire application. Submit a What are my chances post using the template after you have MCAT score and someone can help you. (I don't make lists.)

 

[wysdoc]

Here comes some tough talk.
Your quotes
"Would it matter that it was unintentional - more of a carelessness thing than an honesty thing?"
and
"it's not something I am trying to hide, as it happened"

lead me to believe you are still trying to spin this as an innocent mistake. "It happened" - something happened to me is much different from
"I admit I put off writing my paper until the last second and threw something together."

It still sounds like you are trying to spin your error with words that make you sound innocent.
Politician's non-apologies sound like this too: "Mistakes were made" instead of "I shouldn't have done this."
You need time and maturation.

 

[Mr.Smile12]

For reference: the most recent SDN article: Reporting an Institutional Action - SDN (2020).

I agree with the above. The second item, I'll agree in the end, those who review your descriptions will only be interested in the facts and not your justifications or interpretation. The Dean's letter just affirms the facts of the situation and that you were disciplined. Don't add more than what is given.

There are more facts than provided in this account that tell me the faculty member and the Dean did NOT think that this situation was trivial in spite of what the OP disclosed. Professors just do not throw out plagiarism accusations around without more than enough documentation to overcome any doubts it could be "careless mistakes." Deans don't meet with students and record their meetings just because of "careless mistakes" (or actually they probably do to allay the concerns of the professors). Having worked with clearing assignments through TurnItIn (which also includes screening PS's), significant duplication or variation is easy to detect, but we are all advised on next steps which rarely involve an immediate referral for disciplinary action outside the control of the professor. I knew when I had to prove plagiarism, I had to show which websites and textbooks were copied, and I could argue intent from the way those passages were modified when it came to submitting accusations. So "careless mistakes" is not an argument I would advance. If anything, own the facts that you carelessly failed to credit the work of others, and you were disciplined appropriately.

Are we missing a general warning to the class? Are we missing any academic integrity training that all students at the school need to take? When reviewing applications with plagiarism IA's noted, I often went to the university's website to see how academic integrity was a core value at that institution and what steps students had to take to demonstrate understanding of the concept.

Academic integrity is a BIG core value for medical education that a significant part of the PREview involves academic integrity situations, and you get dinged for what you could call "careless mistakes" of judgement.

 

[zoyabrekker]

For reference: the most recent SDN article: Reporting an Institutional Action - SDN (2020).

I agree with the above. The second item, I'll agree in the end, those who review your descriptions will only be interested in the facts and not your justifications or interpretation. The Dean's letter just affirms the facts of the situation and that you were disciplined. Don't add more than what is given.

There are more facts than provided in this account that tell me the faculty member and the Dean did NOT think that this situation was trivial in spite of what the OP disclosed. Professors just do not throw out plagiarism accusations around without more than enough documentation to overcome any doubts it could be "careless mistakes." Deans don't meet with students and record their meetings just because of "careless mistakes" (or actually they probably do to allay the concerns of the professors). Having worked with clearing assignments through TurnItIn (which also includes screening PS's), significant duplication or variation is easy to detect, but we are all advised on next steps which rarely involve an immediate referral for disciplinary action outside the control of the professor. I knew when I had to prove plagiarism, I had to show which websites and textbooks were copied, and I could argue intent from the way those passages were modified when it came to submitting accusations. So "careless mistakes" is not an argument I would advance. If anything, own the facts that you carelessly failed to credit the work of others, and you were disciplined appropriately.

Are we missing a general warning to the class? Are we missing any academic integrity training that all students at the school need to take? When reviewing applications with plagiarism IA's noted, I often went to the university's website to see how academic integrity was a core value at that institution and what steps students had to take to demonstrate understanding of the concept.

Academic integrity is a BIG core value for medical education that a significant part of the PREview involves academic integrity situations, and you get dinged for what you could call "careless mistakes" of judgement.

Thank you for your input! What I can say is that the Professor contacted the Dean before/at the same time she notified me so I did not really have a say in that part. When I spoke to the Dean, I told him that part of my notes that I copy pasted into the essay were not in my own words and therefore that I would take responsibility for the plagiarism. I didn't think to argue intent, I did explain the situation but since regardless of my intentions, plagiarism is still plagiarism, I thought that it did not really matter what my intentions were in the case of whether I was responsible or not because I still was. I put the entire Dean's note into the post so there is nothing really more I can provide as to what the Dean thought of it.

I did fail to credit the work of others, which I think is a better way to put it. Thank you so much. Also, yes I had to do an ethics and integrity quiz and got a warning as well.

 

[zoyabrekker]

Here comes some tough talk.
Your quotes
"Would it matter that it was unintentional - more of a carelessness thing than an honesty thing?"
and
"it's not something I am trying to hide, as it happened"

lead me to believe you are still trying to spin this as an innocent mistake. "It happened" - something happened to me is much different from
"I admit I put off writing my paper until the last second and threw something together."

It still sounds like you are trying to spin your error with words that make you sound innocent.
Politician's non-apologies sound like this too: "Mistakes were made" instead of "I shouldn't have done this."
You need time and maturation.

That is a good point of view, thank you. I need to face this and truly accept that it was my own fault and my mistakes led to this situation.

 

[zoyabrekker]

You will have more years between your transgressions and your application than @voxveritatisetlucis had and less serious infractions. You should be fine with 25 applications well targeted per your entire application. Submit a What are my chances post using the template after you have MCAT score and someone can help you. (I don't make lists.)

Thank you so much for your input.

 

[deleted314957]

Don’t worry about the “tier”. No place ascribes to the “ three humors” hypothesis of disease anymore. They are all on the same page now