2-year vs 3-year ortho residency programs

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evilbiologist

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Hi! Could someone shed some nuggets of wisdom on the benefits of going into a 2-year vs. 3-year ortho program? Outside of the obvious, which is 2-year programs = getting out and making money faster? Thank you!

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Not being able to complete cases from beginning to end would be one. A three year program would allow you to start your own cases and finish them within the residency. Learning opportunities with more multidisciplinary cases may also be greater with a three year program.
 
Being able to finish your cases is #1. How can you expect to learn and evaluate if what you did worked if you won’t see a case to completion? Patients may disappear for weeks/months on end.
 
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There are some people, who love going to school…..who value the education….. and don’t mind spending a lot of years in school so they can get multiple degrees. But for me, I hate going to school….hate being a poor student…hate living in poverty. If I had rich parents and high tuition fees weren’t an issue, I would do a 2+3 BS/DDS program at UOP ….and another 2 yrs for ortho. Ortho is no brain surgery. There's no reason to spend 11+ yrs in school for this. The sooner I get out and start making money, the sooner I get to enjoy the lifestyle that I dreamt of having when I was in HS…..the kind of lifestyle that I saw my rich uncle, who was a physician....whom I greatly admired, had.

Ortho residency simply gives you the “ticket” to practice ortho. You’ll learn from your job (the busier the schedule, the more you learn)…..from taking over transferred cases (if you work for the corp office)…..from other orthodontists’ mistakes….from your own mistakes. Not everything that you learn in school is ideal and correct…..some of your ortho instructors make mistakes too. The sooner you get out, the sooner you’ll learn.
 
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Late to this discussion. Depending on what your future goals are. A 2 year program is all you need to be a good clinical dentist in the real world. A 3 year program maybe ideal if your goal is academics. It is not necessary to start and finish all your patients in ortho residency. Even if you did .... you would not have enough real world knowledge to be competent. Residency provides the basics. Lots of different treatment options in the real world. I attended a residency on the east coast where extractions were the primary tx option. After residency .... I practiced on the west coast where nonextraction tx was popular. Now .... I utilize both options.

It takes YEARS of practice to really understand proper diagnosis and what works. Years of evaluating all your retention patients. That's where the REAL learning takes place.

One extra year in residency is not going to make a difference except put you further in debt.
 
Late to this discussion. Depending on what your future goals are. A 2 year program is all you need to be a good clinical dentist in the real world. A 3 year program maybe ideal if your goal is academics. It is not necessary to start and finish all your patients in ortho residency. Even if you did .... you would not have enough real world knowledge to be competent. Residency provides the basics. Lots of different treatment options in the real world. I attended a residency on the east coast where extractions were the primary tx option. After residency .... I practiced on the west coast where nonextraction tx was popular. Now .... I utilize both options.

It takes YEARS of practice to really understand proper diagnosis and what works. Years of evaluating all your retention patients. That's where the REAL learning takes place.

One extra year in residency is not going to make a difference except put you further in debt.
so so helpful, thank you!!!
 
I think most programs are ~2.5 years long and that's the perfect length imo, especially if you're also getting a MS degree (which most programs require you to enroll in anyways). I would imagine a 2-year schedule being pretty stressful, but if you don't mind the extra business to finish sooner then it's not a bad idea either.
 
No benefit to choosing 3 years over 2 years. Go to the shortest program possible and get out. I was in a 3 year program. The last 6 months were clinically unproductive. In private practice, a lot of my ongoing learning has been seeing my finished cases come back after years to learn what worked and what didn't work.
 
I went to a three year program, and I'm absolutely sure I was more prepared to enter the real world than if I would have gone to a two year program. Some ortho cases can be incredibly tough, and going to a longer residency program I was able to do way more cases than if I were at a two year program. These tough cases that you have somebody there holding your hand and walking you through. You don't get that in private practice. You better know how to do those cases. Residency is pretty much like what you put into it, you get out of it. If you just coast along the last 6 months of your residency and don't get anything out of it, that's kinda your fault. What you should be doing is going up to your faculty and picking their brain about what they do in tough situations, how they run their private practices, what equipment they like to use, etc. You should be going out and shadowing in private practices. You should be starting new cases - with the types of things that you still need practice in. You should be in the clinic learning. If you work hard in residency, you can see your finished cases and learn what worked and what didn't work.
 
I went to a three year program, and I'm absolutely sure I was more prepared to enter the real world than if I would have gone to a two year program. Some ortho cases can be incredibly tough, and going to a longer residency program I was able to do way more cases than if I were at a two year program. These tough cases that you have somebody there holding your hand and walking you through. You don't get that in private practice. You better know how to do those cases. Residency is pretty much like what you put into it, you get out of it. If you just coast along the last 6 months of your residency and don't get anything out of it, that's kinda your fault. What you should be doing is going up to your faculty and picking their brain about what they do in tough situations, how they run their private practices, what equipment they like to use, etc. You should be going out and shadowing in private practices. You should be starting new cases - with the types of things that you still need practice in. You should be in the clinic learning. If you work hard in residency, you can see your finished cases and learn what worked and what didn't work.
New Vegas, how is the new life as an orthodontist? Do you like it?
 
New Vegas, how is the new life as an orthodontist? Do you like it?
So far so good, but it has ups and downs like any job I suppose. I work two jobs, one for corporate and the other in private practice. Can you guess which of the two I hate? 😂 not because of the ortho part, I love doing ortho, but the company itself is pretty horrible and doesn't want to buy anything, not even brackets when we are low, etc.
 
If you just coast along the last 6 months of your residency and don't get anything out of it, that's kinda your fault. What you should be doing is going up to your faculty and picking their brain about what they do in tough situations, how they run their private practices, what equipment they like to use, etc. You should be going out and shadowing in private practices. You should be starting new cases - with the types of things that you still need practice in. You should be in the clinic learning. If you work hard in residency, you can see your finished cases and learn what worked and what didn't work.

I spent those last 6 months of my 36 month program learning as much as I could about sleep apnea. This was in the dark ages of sleep dentistry when a minuscule number of general dentists were delivering sleep devices.

Ten years later, turns out this gave me an excellent knowledge base in the real science behind sleep to filter out the junk science trying to infiltrate our specialty.

Programs usually will not let third years start new patients. New patients usually get assigned to first years.
 
Programs usually will not let third years start new patients. New patients usually get assigned to first years.
So you have gone to every program in the country and asked specifically whether third years can start cases? I doubt there would be few, if any, program directors that would deny a third year from starting a few cases if they said "hey I want more experience with impacted canine cases". We certainly could start cases my third year, and were even encouraged to do so.

I spent those last 6 months of my 36 month program learning as much as I could about sleep apnea. This was in the dark ages of sleep dentistry when a minuscule number of general dentists were delivering sleep devices.
Ten years later, turns out this gave me an excellent knowledge base in the real science behind sleep to filter out the junk science trying to infiltrate our specialty.

Lol ok I would agree with the junk part. There's lots of quackery out there when it comes to sleep dentistry. I just can't understand why any orthodontist would essentially give a functional appliance to a class I patient, and deal with the side effects of turning them into a class III patient, but that's just me. This is a topic for a different day, but there is a great deal of physiology involved with sleep apnea, and we are not sleep doctors. As I'm sure you're aware, one cannot accurately diagnose an airway from a pan, ceph or CBCT. I once had a sleep doctor tell me, "dentists are much better anatomists than they are physiologists". As far as I'm concerned most "airway orthodontics" is junk in general.
 
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Agreed. There is alot of adult airway orthodontics that is quackery. I have seen some success with the Herbst style removable applaince worn by adults who snore. Not a permanent solution, but helps. YOUNG GROWING patients with an extremely narrow palate, inferiorly placed tongue who are mouth breathers. Expanding the palate. Allowing the mandible to come forward is an example of "airway orthodontics" that helps.
 
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YOUNG GROWING patients with an extremely narrow palate, inferiorly placed tongue who are mouth breathers. Expanding the palate. Allowing the mandible to come forward is an example of "airway orthodontics" that helps.
I agree with this. “Airway orthodontics” only really might have a place in young patients with refractory OSA following an adenotonsillectomy. I know I don’t need to remind you that their lymphoid tissue is relatively large and very likely the source of the obstruction.

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Similar quackery exists in pediatric dentistry regarding tethered tissues. There are way too many lingual frenotomies/frenectomies being done. Why?

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Big Hoss
 
So you have gone to every program in the country and asked specifically whether third years can start cases? I doubt there would be few, if any, program directors that would deny a third year from starting a few cases if they said "hey I want more experience with impacted canine cases". We certainly could start cases my third year, and were even encouraged to do so.

It's been a long while, but I visited and interviewed at a stupidly large number of programs at one point. Most assigned the new case starts to first years back then. I had a little document after each visit where I would track this type of info. There are more programs and more residents these days so I admit I have no idea how things may have now changed. So for those reading at home, this is a great question to ask during your interview.

I can't quote the second part of your message, but my thesis to graduate residency was about how you couldn't use a ceph x-ray to diagnose airway because 3D structure on a 2D image and all that. Yet today every single "airway" dentist these days (including "airway" orthodontists) throws up a before/after ceph, fills in the airway space in red and says "WOW LOOK AT THAT INCREASE IN AIRWAY."
 
It's been a long while, but I visited and interviewed at a stupidly large number of programs at one point. Most assigned the new case starts to first years back then. I had a little document after each visit where I would track this type of info. There are more programs and more residents these days so I admit I have no idea how things may have now changed. So for those reading at home, this is a great question to ask during your interview.

I can't quote the second part of your message, but my thesis to graduate residency was about how you couldn't use a ceph x-ray to diagnose airway because 3D structure on a 2D image and all that. Yet today every single "airway" dentist these days (including "airway" orthodontists) throws up a before/after ceph, fills in the airway space in red and says "WOW LOOK AT THAT INCREASE IN AIRWAY."
Thank you for this! What other questions did you strive to ask about during your interviews?
 
Thank you for this! What other questions did you strive to ask about during your interviews?
Hey there are a couple 30 months programs. is that enough time to finish most of the cases in a residency? From visiting programs, I've been told 24 months isn't
 
Is there a list on here of 24-month programs? If anyone has a list, would really appreciate a link.
 
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