I just opened up first aid 2012 and it said that only 80% of DOs that take step 1 pass it. Is that accurate? So 20% of DOs fail? I'd think that MD schools would have slightly higher pass rates but that a much larger fail rate than I thought. Are these students screwed come residency all time?
20% DO fail step 1?!
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Outdated info. The percent has gone up. Now >90% pass.
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First Aid 2012 is bad. You really have to get the latest version of First Aid for it to be useful. I remember it was 2011 or 2012, can't remember which, but it had like over 100 errors in it.
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According to the link @Instatewaiter posted, 93% pass on the first attempt, just shy of the 94% among first-time MD test takers.
Those who don't pass can either apply AOA for residency or apply very broadly to less-competitive ACGME programs. And if that doesn't work then they can SOAP; very few end up with nowhere to go after graduation. It's not the end of the world but from what I've observed it's worse than just not taking the USMLE. We'll see how things evolve once AOA programs are no longer an option though. I suspect it will get worse for DOs with red flags.
Ya it seems like in the link posted above DOs are now at ~93%. How did things change so quickly in only 4 years?
What percentage of DOs take the USMLEs? And if the pass rate is similar to MDs why are people here always telling DOs not to take the test unless they are strong students? Or is that why the pass rate is now 93% vs 80% (the weaker are discouraged from taking it)?
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You may have answered your second question with your first.
http://www.aacom.org/docs/default-source/data-and-trends/2012-15-matprofilerpt.pdf?sfvrsn=8
http://www.usmle.org/performance-data/default.aspx#2015_step-1
The first link shows that there are 6,184 matriculated students in 2013 and only 3,222 students of those same students took it in 2015 (there might have been some attrition, but only a small amount). So less than half of DO students actually take the USLME step I.
The reason why school faculty recommend taking the COMLEX is for two reasons. The first is that most DO schools are geared to teach to the COMLEX and not the USMLE. The second (then again I don't believe some faculty would admit this) is that the COMLEX is easier than the USMLE. Most COMLEX questions are first and second order while USMLE questions are second and third. If DO students all took it, they would be facing slightly greater attrition rates than currently (I am going to get slammed for this, but this would definitely be true).
The pass rate is greater now because the crop of student are far better than studying than before. This change happened around 2011, when scores went from 80% to 88% (so the matriculating class of 2009). Kind of leaves one dumbfounded as to what made DO all of a sudden so competitive that 2009 year. However, I highly doubt the percentage of people taking it in 2011 was that much less than it is now.
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A quick search of your posts are riveting and insightful, truly demonstrating how much superior MD is compared to DO.
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Not true. I'm a DO student with a Ugrad GPA of 3.9/3.85, Grad 3.8, MCAT of 34, 5 publications and years of experience in research and EMT work. Blanketed statements like this perpetuate an unwarranted bias. After med school we will have the same responsibilities to patients and the community. Your ignorance is astounding.
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I mean there is some truth is this but I agree just staying that flat out is just being antagonistic and I'm sure that was their intention. I am a DO student and a lot of people from my class are in DO school (including me) because their gpa or mcat were not up to par. There are people who got high 30's/low 40's though. Your application is an exception when looking at numbers, did you apply to MD schools or just DO? But by looking at numbers solely you cannot gauge intelligence nor personality of an individual. So it is safe to say that matriculants to DO schools are academically, on average, weaker than their MD counterparts, but do they make better doctors...hard to say, but doubtful.
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Allow me to play the devil's advocate here.
Nearly half of my classmates elected to not take the USMLE because they didn't feel prepared enough for it. I'd assume that this is the case at most DO schools. Although there's no way for us to say with 100% certainty that those students are potential failure (some believe that having a sub 200 passing score is much more lethal), I'm compelled to believe that if every DO student were to take the USMLE this year, we'd see a drop in the pass rate.
Nearly half of my classmates elected to not take the USMLE because they didn't feel prepared enough for it. I'd assume that this is the case at most DO schools. Although there's no way for us to say with 100% certainty that those students are potential failure (some believe that having a sub 200 passing score is much more lethal), I'm compelled to believe that if every DO student were to take the USMLE this year, we'd see a drop in the pass rate.
My last statement was correct and fair. I said "DO students overall are weaker academically than their MD counterparts." I didn't say every DO student was better or worse than MD students. If you average all of the DOs and average every MD student, MD students will be shown to be academically stronger. And I never said they will be bad doctors. This is about their step 1 performance relative to MDs which shows them having a higher failure rate despite the fact that certain variables aren't being taken into account. Such as, the most competitive DOs take the step 1 which is even more revealing.
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Yes, but the reality of the matter is that pass rate evens out at a point that makes DO v.s MD academic comparison a non issue. I.e a person with a 26 on the mcat is going to pass the boards with almost a 90% chance. Regarding scores, DO scores have been going up for a while and some DO schools outperform their MD state counterparts, ex. RVU beat U Col this year.
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@MeatTornado is this your alt account?
No. I have no reason to lie.
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Aren't you the guy who feels slighted by being kept past 5 PM on rotations? Yeah, you're really swinging for the fences yourself there brah
I said a generally accepted statement and now you want to derail this thread. Please stay on topic.
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lol ok there bud. How about you excise yourself from the obviously inferior osteo forums and go somewhere a bit more fitting for your caliber?
Troll harder bro
DOs make good students. No one is inferior to anybody else. What's with this idea that someone has to be superior or inferior because of the school they went to? I have DO friends, residents, and attendings. Not trying to avoid anyone or anything. Its ok to have a discussion.
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Isn't a little late to clamber for the high horse? You posted an inflammatory statement with no intention of discussion. I'll be the first one to admit that someone should go to an MD school over a DO. I'm even willing to admit I'm not a great student. That doesn't entitle you with the right to drop into threads on the osteo forum and drop your little bull**** one liners
I just have given more context to my statement or better yet not have said at all. Note taken.
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As someone going DO, I'll be the first here to agree with twospadz that the hard numbers don't lie. No need to get feelings hurt when it's the truth, at the same time, recognize that these numbers don't determine how competent of a physician one will become.
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Wow, DOs have pass rates shockingly close to MDs these days. I'm sure the average scores are lower, but that's still impressive.
Trying to get this back on track...
Just throwing this out there - some of the top DO students elect NOT to take the USMLE because they're gunning for competitive specialties in the AOA match and want to maximize their COMLEX score. Instead of memorizing USMLE specific info, they spend their time memorizing COMLEX specific nonsense (you know, the "high yield" topics of bioterrorism and heal lift heights...). These students are typically applying for ortho, urology, ENT, optho, neuro surg - basically specialties in which they have an effective 0% chance of matching in the allopathic match. If they're only doing the AOA match, it makes little sense to take the USMLE.
The people who decide to take the USMLE are usually students that are applying to DO-friendly, but still moderately competitive specialties (EM, anesthesia, gen surg, ob/gyn).
Then there's the slew of students applying to less competitive, DO-friendly specialties (FM, community IM, peds, path, etc) that don't need a USMLE score to still end up at a good program (I still think these people should take the USMLE, but that's a separate tangent).
And of course, some students know they can't pass the USMLE and elect not to take it. Which is obviously the right choice for them.
I'm in favor of one unified set of boards for MD and DO students with an added OMM section for the DO students, but again, that's a separate issue I won't go into here.
Just throwing this out there - some of the top DO students elect NOT to take the USMLE because they're gunning for competitive specialties in the AOA match and want to maximize their COMLEX score. Instead of memorizing USMLE specific info, they spend their time memorizing COMLEX specific nonsense (you know, the "high yield" topics of bioterrorism and heal lift heights...). These students are typically applying for ortho, urology, ENT, optho, neuro surg - basically specialties in which they have an effective 0% chance of matching in the allopathic match. If they're only doing the AOA match, it makes little sense to take the USMLE.
The people who decide to take the USMLE are usually students that are applying to DO-friendly, but still moderately competitive specialties (EM, anesthesia, gen surg, ob/gyn).
Then there's the slew of students applying to less competitive, DO-friendly specialties (FM, community IM, peds, path, etc) that don't need a USMLE score to still end up at a good program (I still think these people should take the USMLE, but that's a separate tangent).
And of course, some students know they can't pass the USMLE and elect not to take it. Which is obviously the right choice for them.
I'm in favor of one unified set of boards for MD and DO students with an added OMM section for the DO students, but again, that's a separate issue I won't go into here.
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No feelings were hurt (at least not on my end), and I fully recognize the disparity in numbers between the 2 degrees. I admitted to very well being part of the problem.
That was never my issue. My issue is with this drive-by trolling nonsense, and the intent of sparking yet another MD v DO debate when that topic has been beat to death. The original discussion was about DO's and Step 1 pass rate. Dropping by to remind everyone DO's are poorer students adds nothing, and makes one wonder why they were in this area of these boards to begin with if that was all they had to contribute.
I completely agree with the point you just made, I guess I just jumped the gun when I saw the flames going back and forth.
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Every MD student has to take the USMLE.
At my school only 60% took the USMLE (old curriculum) with an average of 224. The bottom 10% are discouraged from taking it.
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Also, please keep this thread professional.
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There's a few schools that have moved to forcing all students to take the USMLE. I hope that becomes the norm in the future, so we can have a real discussion about the place of the COMLEX.
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RVU did it and they got an average comparable or better than UColorado.
Realistically if DO students with averages in the 27 to 28 range are passing the USMLE and scoring decently compared to US MDs it become more an interesting question to discuss the replace of the current standards for admission to medical school in general and whether or not we should be lowering academic standards while looking into other things.
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Or we could just, you know, get rid of the DO degree and merge the professions, because clearly DO schools are preparing people well enough to be allopathic physicians, in addition to teaching them OMM.
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Well that also goes along with the whole point. Outcomes are similar, training is the same, pass rates and board scores are similar, and outcomes are by in large not only adequate but effective.
But I suppose that's why we are legally under the law the equal of MDs. But pushing to end the major distinction in degree and seperate ourselves fully from European DOs which are not physicians is something worth working on.
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Haha if DOs demonstrably couldn't pass the allopathic licensing exam, then people would say that it's proof that osteopathic medical education is inadequate and should be abolished. This was argued in the past.
But since DOs now demonstrably can pass the USMLE, you are saying that it's evidence that DOs should become MDs and that osteopathic medical education should be abolished.
Those who advocate getting rid of DOs will always reach the same conclusion no matter the evidence.
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Exactly why I noted that- we should be MDs with a certificate in OMM, ideally.
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The pass rate hasn't been ~80% since 2010. Most likely its due to increasing DO matriculant stats, due to a number of things, and an incredible increase in the availability of extensive review material (i.e. pathoma, DIT, many other courses, etc.).
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Another factor that hadn't been mentioned:
In the past four years DOs became required to submit USMLE scores when applying ACGME.
Before this point a DO could take the USMLE, bomb it, and report only their COMLEX. It's reasonable to assume DOs taking USMLE have become more self selective
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Just an informal guess but I'd say that ~80% of my students take USMLE.
What percentage of DOs take the USMLEs?
Because the weakest students will be lucky to pass COMLEX. We teach to that exam and not USMLE, which is a different animal.
The pass rates have gone up because the quality of DO students have gone up...meaning, more qualified candidates are choosing to come to a DO school instead of either bailing on Medicine altogether, or trying their hand at the Caribbean. As an example, the LizzyM scores of a some DO schools surpass those of some MD schools.
And if the pass rate is similar to MDs why are people here always telling DOs not to take the test unless they are strong students? Or is that why the pass rate is now 93% vs 80% (the weaker are discouraged from taking it)?
Jack, I suspect that you will see this in your lifetime, but not mine.
Or we could just, you know, get rid of the DO degree and merge the professions, because clearly DO schools are preparing people well enough to be allopathic physicians, in addition to teaching them OMM.
This is incorrect. NBOME specifically bans first order questions. They get on my case all the time for writing questions that don't contain a vignette, either.
Most COMLEX questions are first and second order while USMLE questions are second and third.
What percentage of DOs take the USMLEs?
Because the weakest students will be lucky to pass COMLEX. We teach to that exam and not USMLE, which is a different animal.
The pass rates have gone up because the quality of DO students have gone up...meaning, more qualified candidates are choosing to come to a DO school instead of either bailing on Medicine altogether, or trying their hand at the Caribbean. As an example, the LizzyM scores of a some DO schools surpass those of some MD schools.
And if the pass rate is similar to MDs why are people here always telling DOs not to take the test unless they are strong students? Or is that why the pass rate is now 93% vs 80% (the weaker are discouraged from taking it)?
Jack, I suspect that you will see this in your lifetime, but not mine.
Or we could just, you know, get rid of the DO degree and merge the professions, because clearly DO schools are preparing people well enough to be allopathic physicians, in addition to teaching them OMM.
This is incorrect. NBOME specifically bans first order questions. They get on my case all the time for writing questions that don't contain a vignette, either.
Most COMLEX questions are first and second order while USMLE questions are second and third.
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80% of my school takes the USMLE.
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It is self selected, but I also don't think it necessarily reflects the top tier of the class either.
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My school heavily discourages taking the USMLE, but this may have changed recently due to the merger. Even so, 60% of my school takes it, we have usually a higher or at least equivalent USMLE pass rate as COMLEX pass rate and according to the school admins, the USMLE average was in the high 220s (i.e. approximating the national US MD average).
Also, a lot of weaker students might take it for geographic reasons. There is a clear geographic prevalence of residency programs that are "USMLE only" in some regions vs. others. A lot of stronger students may similarly not take it because they knew they were applying to the competitive AOA programs only.
A lot of my classmates chose not to take it for one of 3 reasons: (1) They bought the claims of the school when it told students that 70% of ACGME residencies "accept" the COMLEX (accept maybe, but view as equivalent definitely not) or they already know they are applying only AOA, (2) They didn't want to pay and spend extra time preparing for 2 sets of exams (these people all talk about regretting their decision come the end of 3rd year), and (3) They are truly weak students that barely pass the COMLEX (<450) to begin with.
If I were to make a guess at how many would pass and what the average would be if all had to take it, I think the vast majority would still pass, maybe more like 85%-90%, and the average would still be in the 220s, but probably the lower 220s. The student population of the average DO school is not that academically different from low/no-tier US MD schools, so it wouldn't be a surprise for the averages to be similar. That said, I'm sure there would be a significant difference between the best DO schools and the worst/newest ones.
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Mine has 60%. But we're in the midwest and the COMLEX is much more accepted even by university based programs in IM.
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I just fantasized about only having to take one board exam. It was really comfy
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Are you guys going to be required to take the USMLE?
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We're heavily encouraged to take it from my understanding. But no, we're not required as for plenty of people it is entirely unnecessary, ex. taking the usmle if you want to go for ACGME FM in the midwest.
Hell I'm still somewhat on the line about whether I need to really take the USMLE for what I want. But I'm going for it for safeties.
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Lol try taking step 1 twice, a week apart, but imagine it as two completely different styles tests. DOs have to take COMLEX. USMLE is gravy. And tbh, I'd take the USMLE any day over the comlex.
