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Does anyone have the 2004 specialist incomes from ADA for the different regions?
2004 specialists incomes
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GQ1 said:
Periodontists make $1,000,000 a year.
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OMFS's make $999,999 a year, I guess Perio WINS!
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cali05 said:And Oral Surgeons never wish they got into med school
Never applied, just got accepted with my program
"-Yah Baby! "
-austin powers
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ku06 said:
That's right...just like the famous Beatle tune says...MONEY CAN'T BUY YOU LOVE ! 😍 Nor can it buy you true friends and family.
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Smilemaker100 said:
No, but it can sure buy a nice piece of @$$.
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The ADA has this information published every year, but you have to pay for it. You can get it from www.ada.org
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ku06 said:
dont think it's gonna happen. even in canada's socialized healthcare setting, the government doesn't set price for dental care. the canadian dental association publish fee guides every year, but it's up to the dentist to charge more or less than the recommendation as he sees fit.
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ku06 said:
The government doesn't set prices for elective procedures. 🙂
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You're shopping in the wrong place 😀Smilemaker100 said:
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toofache32 said:
The ADA gives a number for specialists as a whole, but only gives income numbers broken down by specialty once every few years...1993, then 1998-9...there haven't been any since then from the ADA...
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edkNARF said:
You think it's funny? It's the darn truth!!!!If you really think money can buy you friends and love...just wait until you lose money...then you'll see who your TRUE friends are...money can buy you FALSE love but not TRUE love.
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kerrydds06 said:
I am not "shopping" here! I am just stating A truth I adamantly believe in...money CAN'T buy you love nor true friends and family. I think it takes a certain amount of maturity to "wake up to this reality" like the trajic death of a couple of friends 🙁 ( I have lost 4 friends over the past 7 years) to realize that money isn't everything.
Believe me, when you see the body of one of your close friends prematurely dead at the age of 22 (7 years ago), lying in her open casket at a funeral home , you wake up 😱 ! Once that happens to you, you realize what is more important in your life.
Fortunately, I have personally formed some true friendships with a select few over the past 10 years or so- that have proved their loyalty to me through thick and thin- I can't count more than the number of fingers on one hand ...but it's better to have a few very good friends then numerous ones who don't give a crap about you when you are swimming rough waters!
I have made many many friends of the years and believe me, when you find a TRUE friend, you better hold onto them for LIFE! It doesn't matter how far they live away from me now, they are always there for me...and I don't mind paying for those long distance phone calls because I treasure those friendships which prove the test of time. No money in the world could buy a loyal friend who will lift you when you are low and be there to cheer you on when great things are happening in your life!
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I agree wholeheartedly with what you're saying here...but I think you're shopping for a lot of frustration if you're hoping to make any converts in this thread.Smilemaker100 said:
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aphistis said:
I like to think that I "enlighten" people with my point of view...sometimes reality simply has to HIT you hard like it did to me to realize what is more important.
For all those out there who are not "converted" let me give you some "food for thought"...will you be taking your stock investments, real estate investments and other savings/luxuries with you when you die? Who will be enjoying all those things but your (if any) surviving offspring/spouses? In recent years, I like to think in terms of "how will I feel in my deathbed" if I make a certain decision...trust me, that sets your priorities straight. When you are dying, you will have flashing memories of your relationships (family and friends) NOT your money. It's the memories of your humanity which you will leave behind NOT the money which people will remember.
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i think this thread has two groups of people. those who are not serious and those that are seriously offended. am i the only one who sees this?
besides everyone knows that the public health specialists make the most 😎
besides everyone knows that the public health specialists make the most 😎
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LAZYGUY said:
kato999 said:
😉
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LAZYGUY said:
Hilarious. Your link has internists making more than dentists. Internists don't make more than the 25+ other medical specialties, much less more than dentists.
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LAZYGUY said:
If i had just one link that said "I AM KIDDING" I would give it to you. But since your a med student and not a dental student you wouldn't know that I'm kidding. I think any reasonably informed dental student would know that was a joke.
Oh and the guy that posted right below me that said Oral surgeons make $999,999 dollars,
He was kidding too.
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If a salary well in excess of the 95th percentile constitutes "not making that much," it sounds to me like someone needs their perceptions adjusted just a tid bitty.LAZYGUY said:There probably is sarcasm through some of the messages but the fact is that some students take your word at it and conveniently enough nobody bothers to correct this. That is probably why there are 2-3 threads a week on dental salaries in this forum???? Often those threads put salaries at 400-700 thousand/year, lets get the facts straight: dentists on average don't make that much and neither do physicians... Trust me, this isn't a physician vs. dentist post, I tend to have respect for dentists and the pain they can inflict.
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LAZYGUY said:
I am usually the one on here telling everyone else to get a handle on reality when talking money, but those numbers are just not accurate for dentistry.
...Self-employed persons are not included in the estimates.
This ensures that they sample only the lowest paid 5 or 10% of all dentists: military, public health, academia, government positions and associateships - positions that most people do only for a year or two until they get some experience and a little capital. The 90% of dentists who own their own practice (and make substantially more money) are left out entirely. Not really very accurate.
Not that you couldn't keep yourself fed and the car gassed up for $120,000 a year. 😀
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You mentioned yourself those numbers are the outliers, and that on average neither dentists nor physicians "make all that much." I'm just reading what's in front of me.LAZYGUY said:
"Anesthesiology
$306,964
Surgery, general
255,438
Obstetrics/gynecology
233,061
Psychiatry
163,144
Internal medicine
155,530
Pediatrics/adolescent medicine
152,690
Family practice (without obstetrics)
150,267
Footnotes:
(1) SOURCE: Medical Group Management Association, Physician Compensation and Production Report, 2003.
Self-employed physicians?those who own or are part owners of their medical practice?generally have higher median incomes than salaried physicians. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, geographic region, hours worked, and skill, personality, and professional reputation. Self-employed physicians and surgeons must provide for their own health insurance and retirement."
"Median annual earnings of salaried dentists were $123,210 in 2002. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, location, hours worked, and specialty.
Self-employed dentists in private practice tend to earn more than salaried dentists. A relatively large proportion of dentists is self-employed. Like other business owners, these dentists must provide their own health insurance, life insurance, and retirement benefits."
As noted the above incomes are for salaried dentists and physicians (Associate, hospital employee, public health, military etc..). This was all cut and pasted from the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. You can read it yourself by going to www.bls.gov
Another site took all the same statistics and ranked "all salaried jobs" in America that require a bachelors degree or higher. Heres the link http://www.acinet.org/acinet/oview5...Aplus&x=37&y=11
Many physicians are salaried and so the above numbers are probably closer to accurate. Of course most dentists are not salaried practitioners so their actual income is "General practitioners in the United States now earn an average of $173,140 yearly, according to the ADA's 2002 Survey of Dental Practice. The report, "Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry," says specialists earned an average of $275,270 in 2001. Expenses were 60.5 percent of general practitioners' total gross billings, 55.6 percent for specialists. The report includes data on dentists? income by region and years since graduation and on total billings of dentists in private practice. For a copy of the report (catalog #5102) at $75 for members, $112.50 for nonmembers or $225 for commercial firms, contact the Survey Center (2568, [email protected])."
$306,964
Surgery, general
255,438
Obstetrics/gynecology
233,061
Psychiatry
163,144
Internal medicine
155,530
Pediatrics/adolescent medicine
152,690
Family practice (without obstetrics)
150,267
Footnotes:
(1) SOURCE: Medical Group Management Association, Physician Compensation and Production Report, 2003.
Self-employed physicians?those who own or are part owners of their medical practice?generally have higher median incomes than salaried physicians. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, geographic region, hours worked, and skill, personality, and professional reputation. Self-employed physicians and surgeons must provide for their own health insurance and retirement."
"Median annual earnings of salaried dentists were $123,210 in 2002. Earnings vary according to number of years in practice, location, hours worked, and specialty.
Self-employed dentists in private practice tend to earn more than salaried dentists. A relatively large proportion of dentists is self-employed. Like other business owners, these dentists must provide their own health insurance, life insurance, and retirement benefits."
As noted the above incomes are for salaried dentists and physicians (Associate, hospital employee, public health, military etc..). This was all cut and pasted from the United States Bureau of Labor Statistics. You can read it yourself by going to www.bls.gov
Another site took all the same statistics and ranked "all salaried jobs" in America that require a bachelors degree or higher. Heres the link http://www.acinet.org/acinet/oview5...Aplus&x=37&y=11
Many physicians are salaried and so the above numbers are probably closer to accurate. Of course most dentists are not salaried practitioners so their actual income is "General practitioners in the United States now earn an average of $173,140 yearly, according to the ADA's 2002 Survey of Dental Practice. The report, "Income from the Private Practice of Dentistry," says specialists earned an average of $275,270 in 2001. Expenses were 60.5 percent of general practitioners' total gross billings, 55.6 percent for specialists. The report includes data on dentists? income by region and years since graduation and on total billings of dentists in private practice. For a copy of the report (catalog #5102) at $75 for members, $112.50 for nonmembers or $225 for commercial firms, contact the Survey Center (2568, [email protected])."
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Salaries are not standard for any medical profession. You can't just assume because a paper says you will make 150k means you will make 150k.
As a dentist with a practice, your salary can vary greatly depending on how you pay yourself. Plus, as a dentist you usually start making 70-100k right out of school which is a benefit. There isn't a required residency for 10 years to start making money. As a dentist you decide how much or how little you actually want to earn. If you can produce 300k a year with 60% overhead on 3 days a week, then thats what you want to do. Or if you can produce 1 mill./ year 5 days a week, then go for it. There is no guarantee no matter what you do and you will never be rich regardless, but you will make a good living. If your in it for the money then go to business school because it is a hell of a lot easier than dentistry.
As a dentist with a practice, your salary can vary greatly depending on how you pay yourself. Plus, as a dentist you usually start making 70-100k right out of school which is a benefit. There isn't a required residency for 10 years to start making money. As a dentist you decide how much or how little you actually want to earn. If you can produce 300k a year with 60% overhead on 3 days a week, then thats what you want to do. Or if you can produce 1 mill./ year 5 days a week, then go for it. There is no guarantee no matter what you do and you will never be rich regardless, but you will make a good living. If your in it for the money then go to business school because it is a hell of a lot easier than dentistry.
L
LSR1979
LAZYGUY said:
Okay we all understand that the average MD will have a higher annual income than the average DDS. There is simply no question about the gross numbers. However, the difference between the two fields is that a DDS will work about half the hours, will have no call, and will actually have time to enjoy his/her income and not be ass deep in paperwork and malpractice suits. We also spend much less time obtaining our DDS and getting out into the world of clinical practice. So if you break it down hour for hour, a general DDS's hourly income will rival that of nearly any MD. I do, however, have the utmost respect for all physicians and think they are, in general, very competent and respect worthy individuals. I actually got accepted into both and am in dentistry because it is more conducive with the lifestyle I want to lead. However I don't think this thread was intended to be another MD vs. DDS discussion. Can we stop the arguing?
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LAZYGUY said:
Link?? Gee whiz, here's a link if you'll pull the panties out of your @$$ and quit whining. Or you can go to the library like everyone else and look it up.
The 1999 ADA Survey of Dental Practices marked the first year that general dentists' national average income was greater than internists, family practitioners, and pediatricians. You can download the most recent document at http://www.ada.org/ada/prod/survey/order.asp if you really want to pay for it. Or many libraries have it on their electronic card catalog. Or you can see the same statistics here:
http://futurehealth.ucsf.edu/pdf_files/1-15 SF.ppt
scroll down to "Practice Reality MD vs DDS." They reference another resource I'm not familiar with.
Can we say "troll"?
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LAZYGUY said:
Sorry to have offended you! Are you saying that internists aren't the bottom rung on the pole when it comes to physician salaries?
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LSR1979 said:
Actually, that is untrue. The "average" DDS has had a higher annual income than the "average" MD.
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LAZYGUY said:
Hey, I think he's gone folks. I wouldn't have responded to him, but I thought he was actually trying to engage in conversation with us lowly dental students. Nope, just another pre-med troll. But what can you do? 🙄
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Here's a free link that works:
http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/dbguide/newdent/income.asp
In 2001, the average independent general practitioner's net income from primary private practice was $173,140. The average independent specialist?s net income was $275,270. These figures represent a 4.0 percent and a 5.4 percent increase over the 2000 average net incomes for independent general practitioners and specialists, respectively.
http://www.ada.org/prof/resources/pubs/dbguide/newdent/income.asp
In 2001, the average independent general practitioner's net income from primary private practice was $173,140. The average independent specialist?s net income was $275,270. These figures represent a 4.0 percent and a 5.4 percent increase over the 2000 average net incomes for independent general practitioners and specialists, respectively.
LAZYGUY said:
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And here's another one:
Directly from the ADEA website:
http://www.adea.org/CPPA_Materials/...At_A_Glance.pdf
Average Net Income: Among the factors contributing to increasing interest in dentistry as a career is the average net income of full-time dentists. The average net income of solo, full-time, dentists in private practice has increased over 89% since 1990, from $94,200 to $177,980 in 2000 (Survey of Dental Practice, American Dental Association, 2001). The net hourly income of dentists now exceeds that of family physicians, general internists, and pediatricians. Reported average incomes depend on length of time in practice, the number of hours spent treating patients, and the use of allied dental personnel. Reported incomes also depend on type of practice. The average net income of solo, full-time, private general practitioners was $159,550 in 2000. It was $270,790 for dental specialists. For new dentists the average net income of new dentists graduating from U.S. dental schools between 1999-2001 it was $142,461; for graduates from 1996-1998 it was $153,174; and for graduates of 1992-1995 it was $174,565 (Survey of New Dentist Financial Issues , American Dental Association, 2002). Additionally, incomes vary by region of the U.S.
Directly from the ADEA website:
http://www.adea.org/CPPA_Materials/...At_A_Glance.pdf
Average Net Income: Among the factors contributing to increasing interest in dentistry as a career is the average net income of full-time dentists. The average net income of solo, full-time, dentists in private practice has increased over 89% since 1990, from $94,200 to $177,980 in 2000 (Survey of Dental Practice, American Dental Association, 2001). The net hourly income of dentists now exceeds that of family physicians, general internists, and pediatricians. Reported average incomes depend on length of time in practice, the number of hours spent treating patients, and the use of allied dental personnel. Reported incomes also depend on type of practice. The average net income of solo, full-time, private general practitioners was $159,550 in 2000. It was $270,790 for dental specialists. For new dentists the average net income of new dentists graduating from U.S. dental schools between 1999-2001 it was $142,461; for graduates from 1996-1998 it was $153,174; and for graduates of 1992-1995 it was $174,565 (Survey of New Dentist Financial Issues , American Dental Association, 2002). Additionally, incomes vary by region of the U.S.
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"The average net income of solo, full-time, private general practitioners was $159,550 in 2000. It was $270,790 for dental specialists."
Excuse me for being naive, i have never taken a business class in my life. As i understood net income, it equals gross salary minus overhead and taxes. To equal $270,790 net salary let me run through this. Figure overhread (staff, rent, utilities lab and instrument fees etc.) runs you 55% of gross and the upper tax bracket takes 38% of your taxable income which i believe in this case would be gross minus overhead. So to net 270,790 your gross income would need to be $970,573 - minus overhead you are at $436,758 - minus taxes you get your net income of $270,790.
Can someone confirm this logic for me, or tell me I am an idiot. Thanks.
Excuse me for being naive, i have never taken a business class in my life. As i understood net income, it equals gross salary minus overhead and taxes. To equal $270,790 net salary let me run through this. Figure overhread (staff, rent, utilities lab and instrument fees etc.) runs you 55% of gross and the upper tax bracket takes 38% of your taxable income which i believe in this case would be gross minus overhead. So to net 270,790 your gross income would need to be $970,573 - minus overhead you are at $436,758 - minus taxes you get your net income of $270,790.
Can someone confirm this logic for me, or tell me I am an idiot. Thanks.
snoopdoug said:
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Who the f*** cares about this stuff? In the grand scheme of life who gives a flying crap about who makes more than the next guy?
Let me ask all of you this one, simple question:
What good is all of this back-and-forth garbage doing for anyone?
PLEASE direct your energies to something more worthy (like studying or reading).
Let me ask all of you this one, simple question:
What good is all of this back-and-forth garbage doing for anyone?
PLEASE direct your energies to something more worthy (like studying or reading).
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I agree. Unfortunately, the further you go, the more people you run into who seem to have a hard time finding validation unless they can say they're "winning" at something like paycheck size.puffy1 said:
As far as I'm concerned, those folks can have their larger paychecks; I'll have plenty of free time after work and on weekends for therapy. 😉
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THAT'S the link I was looking for. I new I had seen it somewhere.snoopdoug said:
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puffy1 said:
I agree wholeheartedly...how about solving the problem of world hunger or negociating peace agreements in war torn regions?
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Smilemaker100 said:
i'm going to control the things i can (i.e., my practice and my income) and let you guys worry about world hunger and median incomes of md's versus dentists.
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antidentite said:
Sounds correct to me. For a specialist to bring home $300k, he'd have to generate about $1 million in his practice.
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...depending on the type of specialty practice, of course.ItsGavinC said:
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aphistis said:
Of course. 🙂
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