2008 MD/PhD Match

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Doctor&Geek

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Hello folks,

I'll be collecting data again on residency appointments for this year's graduating MD/PhD students.

If you have results from your school or your intended school, please share!

2008 Matchers: best of luck on next week! :luck: :hardy:

Total collected data (5 years, 1,611 graduates)
http://www.dpo.uab.edu/~paik/match.html

Previous match results threads:
2007: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=380918
2006: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=265950
2005: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=186611
2004: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=112378

Updated: 9/13/08

41/42 MSTPs

Digest:

Top Five Specialties
Internal Medicine - 71
Pathology - 42
Pediatrics - 36
Radiation Oncology - 28
Radiology - 28
Neurology - 23

Top Five Locations
Harvard - 57
UCSF - 26
WashU - 21
Yale - 16
Stanford - 16

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I was looking through previous year's threads and couldn't find any info about UCLA. Do you have that?
 
From the early match at VCU:

Yale: Neurosurgery
UCSF: Neurosurgery
 
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Dr. P, thanks again for doing this. Every year I offer to bring the results to the discussions we have on career options and every year I get refused. I'm convinced it's because our program administrators don't want us all to know that #4 and #5 are Radiology and Dermatology.

Keep up the good work :thumbup:

PS: I'll get you our results as soon as I can, they tend to be slow about posting them.
 
I was looking through previous year's threads and couldn't find any info about UCLA. Do you have that?

No. I don't know anyone in their program and their website does not have this information, nor does UCLA release a classwide match list with names that I can compare to UCLA's student roster.
 
I'm convinced it's because our program administrators don't want us all to know that #4 and #5 are Radiology and Dermatology.

:laugh:

Seriously, I don't know what those residency programs do with all of their MD/PhDs. They want them, but on the whole, very few will support *real* research during residency.
 
very few will support *real* research during residency.

This statement echoes the sort of bias against those specialties that my program officials seem to have. So being the PITA that I am, I will challenge it.

What residencies do support *real* research during residency? Internal Medicine residency is a balls to the wall 80+ hours a week crapstorm of scut as far as I can tell. To address that a few programs let you can shave a year off the scut and put that towards research and we call that fast tracking. That is a very small minority. Residency is still mostly about clinical work.

I don't know about Dermatology, so I'll speak to Radiology. A few programs in Radiology give you a year protected time during your residency to do research. I think this is similar to fast-tracking in that it provides for more research time. Of course most residencies are most are mostly clinical because again, that's what residency is for. Residency is a clinical time to train. Just like in IM subspecialties, there are many research intensive fellowships in Radiology to go around.

The MD/PhDs are ending up at the research heavy Radiology programs however, like MGH and Penn and such and these *DO* support real research during residency during that year or this other option...

http://www.theabr.org/RO_Holman.htm

which is a very research intensive pathway funded by the American Board of Radiology.

It's up to the applicant whether or not they want to make research a part of their career. What I see happening with increased frequency is the following. Let's call them student A and student B.

Student A fast tracks into an IM residency, then does a minimal-procedural, traditionally low-paying IM fellowship. Student A then fights tooth and nail 80+ hours a week for many years fighting for funding and promotions. Maybe they're successful, maybe they aren't. Maybe their children know who they are, maybe they don't. If they're lucky they break $150k and get 2 weeks a year of vacation, which they spend revising grants anyways. The private practice options for their area isn't all that much better, so they don't really have other great options anyways.

Student B takes the research track of a Radiology residency. Sure they're interested in research at first but they're also interested in Rads. They might even be as gung ho about research as Student A. Then student B realizes around the age of 35 or so that they can take a 60 hour a week job upon graduation in the real world with 3+ months of vacation per year and make $400k/year. Meanwhile if they stay in research they face the same fate as student A, being 40 and still working 80+ hours a week fighting tooth and nail for grants.

So Student B chooses the private practice pathway. Who can blame them? In the real world you have better job stability, MUCH higher pay (2-3x), better hours, more vacation, more location flexibility... For all you early 20something applicants, you can play the I'M BETTER THAN THAT card all you want. But after year after year of busting your *** with no end in sight it's certainly nice to have a payoff to your 15 years of post-high school education. This is especially true when you have kids to see and outside interests you want to persue.

This is as much a problem for the Rads departments. They can't pay a lot because of NIH salary caps. They can't really afford it anyways. The Rads department is busy propping up the rest of the hospital so it doesn't collapse under Medicare funding cuts. Student As department is losing money and so Student B's department has to make up for it. But there's a caveat there too. Good luck recruiting the people to work there and keep the whole scheme afloat.

Maybe this won't be as much an issue in the future. If Rads gets slashed or Derm takes some kind of major ding and the job options are equalized between private practice and the clinical world. Something else will have to replace them or numerous hospitals will collapse because the profit from the lucrative subspecialties are saving many of the inner city hospitals from complete failure. Maybe NIH funding will come back on line such that a research track is almost guaranteed to be a success as long as you are competent and you don't have to spend all your time fighting well into your 40s.

I'm sorry boys and girls, but if the future really is as bleak as the one I've painted here, I'm glad I have the out if I go into a high paying specialty. I love Radiology research. I'm not willing to sacrifice the rest of my life for it. For the curious, I am a 5th year (going on 6th year) and I'm probably the most passionate about continuing to do basic science research of any of the 5th years I've talked to.
 
A few points, that I won't belabor (too much):

1) Positions for research-intensive radiology or dermatology residencies are limited, and far more limited than those that might be available for medicine or pathology. The number of PDs who would love to see applicants with research experience but won't support a real project while in residency greatly outnumber those who truly support the career development path MD/PhDs deserve. This is the reality of applying to residency, where the emphasis is on getting the best applicants in the door, but then using them as labor rather than cultivation of highly qualified researchers that will benefit their specialty as a whole, but not their clinical volume.

See http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=503072 for a further discussion in Radiation Oncology.

2) Because those positions are highly competitive, those who do apply take a great risk that one won't get that research-intensive residency position, and therefore be relegated to a program that will essentially kill your career path.

3) The flexibility for a program to support resident or fellow research is more limited by the limits placed on number of residents. While you're off doing research, which kind of program is going to place more flexibility to cover for you? The one where four residents are taken per year, or the one with forty? Flexibility and protected time is obviously key, because four 3 month nonconsecutive blocks is not conducive to research - it's four rotation projects. This is the reason why in radiology for example, many programs do not support Holman, and sometimes evening mentioning it in interviews can have a negative effect. The ones that do support it are, more often than not, those programs that have enough residents to cover for research.

In conclusion, I think if you're applying to some of these competitive residencies which highly desire research, caveat emptor. Do your homework. If research is your career, then ensure that programs that you highly rank have a history of supporting resident research successfully.

That means:
1) Support for external fellowships, K08s, or similar grants.
2) First-author publications, or at least many quality abstracts of investigative and mechanistic research (any trained monkey can do chart reviews).
3) History of placement into academic jobs (going to a program which sends all of its graduates, especially MD/PhDs, into private practice is a bad sign)
4) History of success for graduates in those jobs as indicated by R01s or strong publication record.
5) Department has mentors that have R01s, the more of either, the better.

I won't speak about money/research issues - it's another ball of wax.
 
1) Positions for research-intensive radiology or dermatology residencies are limited, and far more limited than those that might be available for medicine or pathology.

Dermatology positions nationally = 320
Radiology positions nationally = 1043

Pathology positions nationally = 513
Internal medicine positions nationally = 4798

I think I can see why they're more limited... The specialties are smaller to begin with. Though Pathology is traditionally much more research oriented. I don't see why Radiology isn't except for the financial issues I raised earlier.

2) Because those positions are highly competitive, those who do apply take a great risk that one won't get that research-intensive residency position, and therefore be relegated to a program that will essentially kill your career path.

This is as true for Radiology and Dermatology as it is for Pathology or IM. The research heavy places are always the most competitive because this generates prestige. Overall IM and Path aren't as competitive as Derm or Rads however so it's easier to get a spot regardless.

Also, does not taking a residency that is research oriented kill your career path? There's always fellowship. How crucial is your RESIDENCY to fostering a research career when its focus is primarily clinically. I've had this conversation with my assistant PD and he agrees with me on this. Radiology fellowships are generally NOT competitive these days, with a few exceptions, because it doesn't increase your earning power.

Do your homework. If research is your career, then ensure that programs that you highly rank have a history of supporting resident research successfully.

I agree with this and the rest of your post. I just don't like to hear any bias off the bat that someone going into IM, Peds, or Path is more likely to do research than someone going in Rads or Derm. I know people who have gone into all of these specialties and my personal observation of people going INTO residency is that there's no correlation between specialty picked and desire to do research in the future. I know people who have lost all interest in research who are still fast tracking in IM for the sole reason that they know pretending to be highly academic will get them a better spot in IM for a competitive program and fellowship. I've seen this in Radiology as well. I think the personal issues and funding issues I raised in my last post is by far the biggest contributor to MD/PhDs not persuing research in all specialties, but I think the drive to get out of research is even higher when you have a great career choice if you switch.

But, what we are missing is data showing that MD/PhDs that go into certain specialties are more likely to pull down R01s or other big grants someday by percentage. I'm almost certain that data doesn't exist, and until it does I don't believe the assertion that going into Rads or Derm makes one less likely to have a primary research career someday than going into IM, Peds, or Path.
 
Most neurosurg programs have protected research time with little to no call. The research years can vary from 1 year to 2 years. While many folks blow it off as a no-call vacation, someone truly interested in research could be pretty productive. Two years may be too short for a really good post-doc... I'm sure it depends on your work ethic, model system, etc.

I think many fields are seeking academic physician scientists. I just though i'd throw that out there.
 
Most neurosurg programs have protected research time with little to no call. The research years can vary from 1 year to 2 years. While many folks blow it off as a no-call vacation, someone truly interested in research could be pretty productive. Two years may be too short for a really good post-doc... I'm sure it depends on your work ethic, model system, etc.

I think many fields are seeking academic physician scientists. I just though i'd throw that out there.

I knew virtually all neurosurgery programs required at least one year of research, but I didn't realize how many allow for two years out of the seven or eight. A quick web search reveals that this is the case at programs like Cleveland Clinic, UofW Seattle, Duke, Mayo and Wash U in St. Louis, for starters. I think this helps reason out why a PhD would be decided advantage applying to one of these programs.
 
Another match result from this afternnon:

Stanford: Plastic Surgery
 
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Here is the final list:

Plastic Surgery: Stanford
Neurosurgery: UCSF
Neurosurgery: Yale
Medicine/ID combined residency: Vanderbilt
 
dermatology - NYP Hosp-Columbia
emergency medicine - UCLA
internal medicine - Harvard (MGH)
internal medicine - Harvard (Brigham & Women's)
internal medicine - Penn (HUP)
pathology - Harvard (MGH)
pathology - Harvard (MGH)
psychiatry - Penn (HUP)
radiation oncology - Mt. Sinai
radiation oncology - Harvard (Brigham & Women's)

and 1 straight to post-doc
 
TriI (source: website)

Anesthesiology - NYP Cornell
Anesthesiology - NYP Cornell
Dermatology - NYU
Ophthalmology - NYP Cornell
Neurology - NYP Cornell
Psychiatry - NYP Cornell
Psychiatry - NYP Cornell
Psychiatry - NYU
Radiation Oncology - Harvard
Radiation Oncology - Memorial Sloan-Kettering
Postdoc
Postdoc

WashU (source: website)

Internal Medicine - Brigham
Internal Medicine - MGH
Internal Medicine - Stanford
Internal Medicine - WashU
Internal Medicine - WashU
Internal Medicine - WashU
Neurology - Harvard
Neurology - UPenn
Neurology - WashU
Neurosurgery - WashU
Ophthalmology - OHSU
Ophthalmology - OHSU
Pathology - MGH
Pathology - UCSF
Pathology - UPenn
Pathology - UPenn
Pediatrics - Children's Boston
Pediatrics - Children's Boston
Pediatrics - CHOP
Pediatrics - UCSF
Pediatrics - WashU
Pediatrics - WashU
Radiation Oncology - NCI
Radiology - Johns Hopkins
Radiology - U of Washington
Radiology - WashU
Surgery - WashU
Postdoc
 
Northwestern (source: PM)

Neurosurgery - Brigham
Neurosurgery - WashU
Orthopaedic Surgery - UCIrvine
Pathology - U of Washington
Pediatrics - Duke
Surgery - Northwestern
Postdoc

Virginia (source: website)

Radiology - Johns Hopkins

UTHouston (source: correlation of match list with student listing)

Radiation Oncology - Colorado

Minnesota (source: correlation of match list with student listing)

Internal Medicine - UCLA
Radiation Oncology - UTMB
Radiation Oncology - WashU
Urology - Minnesota

Vanderbilt (source: correlation of match list with student listing)

Dermatology - Yale
Internal Medicine - MGH
Neurology - Harvard
Radiation Oncology - Vanderbilt
Prelim - New Mexico

UCLA (source: PM)

Dermatology - UCLA
Internal Medicine - Brigham
Internal Medicine - Johns Hopkins
Neurosurgery - UCLA
Orthopaedic Surgery - Rochester
Pediatrics - Colorado

UCSD (source: PM)

Anesthesiology - Mayo
Anesthesiology - UCSD
Child Neurology - UCSD
Internal Medicine - Duke
Internal Medicine - UCSD (Research)
Internal Medicine - UCSD (Research)
Radiology - UCSD
Radiology - UCSD
Radiology - UCSF
 
I'm a little skeptical of all these "post-doc" people. We had a guy in a neighboring lab go straight to work in industry after his MD/PhD. I'm don't even think he had a job lined up when he left--he just really didn't want to be in this game anymore. So he did no post-doc or residency. They still listed him as "post-doc" on the match list.
 
As far as I know from Pritzker:

Medicine - MGH
Medicine/PSTP - UChicago
Neuro - UCSF
Path - UChicago
Medicine - Stanford
Path - Brigham

I think that's it.
 
Internal med
Emory

Neuro
Mass Gen Hosp

Path
Yale

Optho
Yale

Radiology
B I Deaconess Med
 
U of Illinois - Urbana
source: website

Child Neurology - Johns Hopkins
Derm - Penn
Derm - NYU
EM - Stanford
FM - Providence Hosp. Ann Arbor
IM - Mayo
IM - Yale
IM - U of Chicago
Med/Peds - Brigham & Women's
Neurology - Beth Israel Deaconess-Harvard
Neurology - UCSF
Neurosurgery - North Carolina
OB/GYN - Sparrow Hospital, Lansing MI
OB/GYN - WashU/Barnes-Jewish
Pathology - Michigan
Pathology - Baylor
Peds - Utah
Peds - UT-Memphis
Peds - U of Wisconsin
Psych - NYU
Surgery - Thomas Jefferson
 
General Surgery - Univ of Washington
Radiation Oncology - Loma Linda University
 
Stanford - Pathology
Tufts - Radiology
Beth Israel (Harvard) - Neurology
Cincinnati Children's - Peds
OHSU - Internal Med
Wash U - Ophtho
 
Harvard (source: website)

Anesthesiology - Brigham
Child Neurology - Harvard
Dermatology - Pitt
Dermatology - Stanford
Internal Medicine - BID
Internal Medicine - BID
Internal Medicine - Brigham
Internal Medicine - Brigham
Internal Medicine - Brigham
Neurology - Stanford
Neurology - UCSF
Ophthalmology - MEEI
Orthopaedic Surgery - Pitt
Pathology - BID
Pathology - MGH
Pathology - Stanford
Pathology - Stanford
Pediatrics - Children's Boston
Pediatrics - Children's Boston
Radiation Oncology - Stanford
Radiation Oncology - USC
Radiology - BID
Surgery - UCSF
Urology - Duke
Industry
 
Neurology - Penn
Opthalmology - Michigan
Pathology - Brigham
Peds - Children's Hospital Boston
Peds - Northwestern
Peds - Rainbow Babies Children's Hospital
Peds - Vanderbilt
Psych - UCLA
Radiology - University Hospital Case Medical Center
Postdoc
 
Just to add / clarify Pritzker's list (I think this is right but we don't distinguish the MD/PhDs from MDs) -

MD/PhD (not through MSTP)
Neurology - Columbia

MSTPs
ENT - OHSU
Surgery - UChicago
Medicine - WashU
Medicine/PSTP - UChicago
Medicine - MGH
Neuro - UCSF
Path - UChicago
Medicine - Stanford
Path - Brigham
 
Radiology - UCSF
Med/Peds - University of Maryland
Pediatrics - University of Washington
Neurology - University of Washington
Child Neurology - Children's Hospital of Philadelphia
 
Radiology - Mayo
Anesthesia - Mayo
Internal Medicine - Mayo

Hmmm, quite a trend :)
 
Just to add / clarify Pritzker's list (I think this is right but we don't distinguish the MD/PhDs from MDs) -

MD/PhD (not through MSTP)
Neurology - Columbia

Was that other MD/PhD through the Developmental Biology program? Is there anyone not on the student listing on the Chicago MSTP's website that is on your list?
 
Was that other MD/PhD through the Developmental Biology program? Is there anyone not on the student listing on the Chicago MSTP's website that is on your list?

Hi... time to clarify one more time... sorry about that.

MD/PhD (not through MSTP)
Neurology – Columbia (PhD prior to med school)
Neurology – UCSF (GDTP program)

MSTPs
*Anesthesiology – NYP-Columbia
*ENT - OHSU
Medicine - WashU
Medicine/PSTP - UChicago
Medicine - MGH
Path - UChicago
Medicine - Stanford
Path - Brigham

* I didn't see these students on the MSTP website but I'm sure they were part of our official MSTP program
 
I don't think D&G is collecting data on those who have a PhD prior to med school. If so, we'd have at least 4-5 extra per year.
 
UTMB (source: PM)

Anesthesiology - WashU
Pathology - Cleveland Clinic
Pathology - Methodist/TX

Temple
removed at contributor request

Baylor (source: PM)

Child Neurology - WashU
Ophthalmology - Duke
Pathology - MGH
Pathology - WashU
Radiation Oncology - Baylor
Radiation Oncology - Vanderbilt

Tufts (source: website)

Dermatology - UCDavis
Emergency Medicine - BID
Internal Medicine - Mt. Sinai (Research)
Neurology - Harvard
Ophthalmology - Utah

Michigan (source: correlated match list to student listing)

Anesthesiology - UCSD
Anesthesiology - UCSF
Dermatology - Michigan
Internal Medicine - Central Iowa
Internal Medicine - Michigan
Pathology - Brigham
Pathology - UCSF
Radiation Oncology - Harvard
Radiation Oncology - Penn

Stanford (source: correlated match list to student listing)

Dermatology - Stanford
Internal Medicine - Chicago (Research)
Internal Medicine - Stanford
Radiology - MGH
Radiology - Penn
Radiology - Stanford
Radiology - UCSF
 
Hopkins MD/PhD Match List:


Internal Medicine - UCSF
Internal Medicine - MGH
Internal Medicine - MGH
Opthalmology - USC
Neurology - Univ Washington
ENT - Hopkins
Radiation Oncology - UCSF
 
Medicine-Preliminary, Lenox Hill
Phys Medicine & Rehab, NYU School of Medicine

Pathology, NYP Hosp-Columbia Univ Med Ctr-NY

Internal Medicine, U Alabama Med Ctr-Birmingham

Pathology, Hosp of the Univ of PA

Medicine-Preliminary, Duke Univ Med Ctr-NC
Neurology, UCLA Medical Center

Transitional, Georgetown Univ Hosp-DC

Radiation Oncology, Yale-New Haven Hospital

Research Medicine, Mt Sinai Hospital-NY

Pathology, Duke Univ Med Ctr-NC

Research Medicine, Mt Sinai Hospital-NY
 
Hopkins MD/PhD Match List:


Internal Medicine - UCSF
Internal Medicine - MGH
Internal Medicine - MGH
Opthalmology - USC
Neurology - Univ Washington
ENT - Hopkins
Radiation Oncology - UCSF

I believe we also had a person match into Family Practice at NYP/Columbia Univ. Med Center. Two years in a row now we've had a person decide to go into family medicine.
 
Hi... time to clarify one more time... sorry about that.

MD/PhD (not through MSTP)
Neurology – Columbia (PhD prior to med school)
Neurology – UCSF (GDTP program)

MSTPs
*Anesthesiology – NYP-Columbia
*ENT - OHSU
Medicine - WashU
Medicine/PSTP - UChicago
Medicine - MGH
Path - UChicago
Medicine - Stanford
Path - Brigham

* I didn't see these students on the MSTP website but I'm sure they were part of our official MSTP program

The starred people didn't quit in the middle of the program, right?
 
Radiology - MGH
Ophthamology - UPenn
Urology - Baylor
Pathology - UCSF
Neurosurgery - UT Houston
Neurology - Harvard
Psychiatry - UCLA
 
Medicine - Pitt
Medicine - U Wisconsin
Psychiatry - Duke
Psychiatry - UCSF
Radiology - Michigan
 
I always wondered what the match rate is for MD/PhD's.. I can't imagine that 100% of MD/PhD applicants who apply for residencies actually match... Anyone can provide some insight into this?
 
I always wondered what the match rate is for MD/PhD's.. I can't imagine that 100% of MD/PhD applicants who apply for residencies actually match... Anyone can provide some insight into this?

Charting the Match partially addresses this question.

*see below
 
I am most curious personally about the application vs match issue personally. My program loudly touts how everyone gets their #1 choice (well, most everyone) and people match at great places. On the other hand, no one would rank a place that didn't grant them an interview.

So, I wonder if there is a pre-season #1/post-season #1 disconnect?

I mean, the graduates must be reasonably solid but I highly doubt all graduating combined degree-ers are AOA with 270 on Step I. Speaks to the whole relative advantage of a PhD for residency debate...
 
There is a program this year that had 2/5 go unmatched...I would call this a problem with the program and/or PD. Compare the match lists above with the lists of current final year students at the program...
 
There is a program this year that had 2/5 go unmatched...I would call this a problem with the program and/or PD. Compare the match lists above with the lists of current final year students at the program...

What program? Do you know what they were applying for? That blows...
 
UTSW:

Pathology (UTSW)
Path (Columbia)
Path (Baylor)
Peds (Cincinnati Childrens Hosp MC-OH)
Peds (UCSF)
Medicine (Mt. Sinai-Research track)
Medicine (VCU)
Neurology (Hopkins)
Prelim (UT) / Derm (Oklahoma)
 
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