WIll I make 200K as a Neurologist? (in private practice) I like the time spent with patients and the office based diagnostic work. The only thing keeping me OUT of neurology is the fear of not making enough money. Everyone has seen the salary surveys which seem to conflict, can anyone tell me anything more to help me make my decision? I know that money should not be a HUGE factor, but being unable to make 200K is unnacceptable for me. Any personal experiences or second hand knowledge appreciated... thanks everyone
200K Yes or No in Private Practice
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Some of you (in residency) may be told by some of your mentors that economics should not drive you career choices. Well, in my opinion, earning potential is always important. After waiting until your early 30's to finally apply for attending positions - school loans, family needs, and personal needs do add up; everyone knows this, and it would be falsely idealistic to not acknowledge the importance of one's income. Although many people may scorn the boon of applicants into "lifestyle" fields such as anesthesiology and radiology, I believe that it is important to weigh all factors (academic interests, personal life, income) into the best decision for yourselves; there is absolutely nothing wrong with going into a so-called lifestyle field. If you have interest in private practice neurology and do wish to make > $200k/year, in the today's economic climate, you may be in luck (although things may change in future years).
FYI, I am in the midst of looking for an attending position, and here are some numbers that I have been given by various institutions and practices:
(1) Academic position (ie. research scientist, clinician scientist):
$100-120k/ year to start, with the potential to make $15-30 more per year if/when one succeeds in becoming an associate professor. Of course, a number of the stronger institutions may expect you to support your own salary after the first two years, and I have known some positions to only offer $60-80k/year for DO's and clinical instructors.
(2) Clinician educator/semi-academic (ie. work with a hospital w/adjunct non-tenure professorship with a university):
$120-160k/year to start, with bonus after the first 1-2 years (which is dependent on your productivity).
(3) Private practice (which is more lucrative in less-desirable areas):
$120-250k/year to start (sometimes with a 1-2 year guarantee) and, one works hard and stays busy w/procedures such as sleep and EEG, one can easily earn well over 200k/year - even in desirable areas such as Los Angeles and New York. Partnership gives you many benefits, but one shouldn't be fooled into believing that they are guaranteed partnership by an advertised "two years," as there are many stories of practices finding reasons to delay giving a junior practice member full benefits.
(4) Industry (working for a pharmaceutical company):
This is probably something that many of you have not strongly considered. However, one can become a medical liason ($60-80k/year start), medical affairs director ($100-250k/year start), or - if research is your game - vice-president of "A or B" research ($>100k/year - and, if you are well-published and have strong attending experience with clinical trials, the sky can be the limit - ie. Dennis Choi). I have not looked into this opportunity at all, but I know that many may be interested in this possibility.
Disclaimer: Of course, I have not started working as an attending yet, and these are only numbers that I have seen and been told by various colleagues.
I hope that helps! Good luck to everyone in the 2006 match!
FYI, I am in the midst of looking for an attending position, and here are some numbers that I have been given by various institutions and practices:
(1) Academic position (ie. research scientist, clinician scientist):
$100-120k/ year to start, with the potential to make $15-30 more per year if/when one succeeds in becoming an associate professor. Of course, a number of the stronger institutions may expect you to support your own salary after the first two years, and I have known some positions to only offer $60-80k/year for DO's and clinical instructors.
(2) Clinician educator/semi-academic (ie. work with a hospital w/adjunct non-tenure professorship with a university):
$120-160k/year to start, with bonus after the first 1-2 years (which is dependent on your productivity).
(3) Private practice (which is more lucrative in less-desirable areas):
$120-250k/year to start (sometimes with a 1-2 year guarantee) and, one works hard and stays busy w/procedures such as sleep and EEG, one can easily earn well over 200k/year - even in desirable areas such as Los Angeles and New York. Partnership gives you many benefits, but one shouldn't be fooled into believing that they are guaranteed partnership by an advertised "two years," as there are many stories of practices finding reasons to delay giving a junior practice member full benefits.
(4) Industry (working for a pharmaceutical company):
This is probably something that many of you have not strongly considered. However, one can become a medical liason ($60-80k/year start), medical affairs director ($100-250k/year start), or - if research is your game - vice-president of "A or B" research ($>100k/year - and, if you are well-published and have strong attending experience with clinical trials, the sky can be the limit - ie. Dennis Choi). I have not looked into this opportunity at all, but I know that many may be interested in this possibility.
Disclaimer: Of course, I have not started working as an attending yet, and these are only numbers that I have seen and been told by various colleagues.
I hope that helps! Good luck to everyone in the 2006 match!
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play274 said:
My med school friend recently interviewed at a very lucrative private practice group with a starting offer of $240k. Apparently if he becomes partner after a few years, they have told him he'll make about $400k with $40-$50k as yearly bonus. He is finishing his felllowship training in electrophysiology and his job will be ~90% focused on electrophysiology. The practice is not located is a very desirable location though. Granted this is an atypical opportunity, but they do exist if you are willing to go to the boonies.
Thanks for the replies...
I guess I am asking more long term, like are there 40 year old Neurologists with tons of experience making 180k? I mean to START thats fine but what happens as you gain experience? Making partner, what does that mean really? And what does income gaurantee mean? Thanks for the help
I guess I am asking more long term, like are there 40 year old Neurologists with tons of experience making 180k? I mean to START thats fine but what happens as you gain experience? Making partner, what does that mean really? And what does income gaurantee mean? Thanks for the help
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Hoya11 said:
Yes, of course there are 40 year old neurologists with tons of experience making 180K. So what, if they are enjoying their work? Maybe they've realized that to make $250-300K they'd have to work like dogs and don't want to make that sacrifice. Maybe they live in an area with a zillion other neurologists and there is too much competition to allow salaries to go much higher. You have to realize that there's no such thing as easy money in any specialty -- you want it, you work for it, and there are always tradeoffs to be made.
"Making partner" means that you assume a financial stake in the practice (as well as a significant financial responsibility). Generally, your salary will increase because you become entitled to some type of profit-sharing agreement, whereas as a salaried employee that is not generally the case.
An income guarantee is a way that a practice or hospital entices or supports a newly hired physician until they become productive enough to support their own operations. Everyone knows that a doc right out of residency is not as productive as a seasoned practitioner and can't be expected to work as fast and bill as much until they "learn the ropes." Generally, a new hire's relative inefficiency costs the employer money. So the hiring group will guarantee you a certain salary (say, $160K) for a year or two, regardless of productivity, after which time it will be expected that you can work quicker, more efficiently, and bring in enough revenue to actually pay for yourself. At this point (hopefullly) you are productive enough that your salary will increase above the "guaranteed income" but it might not.
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Docxter said:
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be careful to take a neurology job with 40K promise. there is no way a neurologist can make that money in a normal way unless it is very aggressive billing with inhumane hard work and talk with attorney all the time.
kws
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Doing a NCV/EMG is probably one of the most financially rewarding procedures in all of medicine per unit time (do you know how much a gen surgeon gets for an appy). It's also interesting and contains almost no risk of contracting a deadly disease (personally, I know a surgeon who died of HCV). The future of neurology also looks bright: stroke codes will bring in huge money. Botox. Sleep studies. Neurologists can read carotid US's, and most rational radiologists know that all specialists can read the studies they order about as well as gen. radiologists, or better. (I see diagnostic imaging as something that neurologists have got to take back. For example neurologists are not waiting for the prelim HCT report prior to giving tPA, or at least they should not be. Yet hours later, when the test is no longer relevant to the patient, it's formal report that garners the billing. Reading the head CT should be incorporated in the tPA eval.)
I don't think the question is 200/year as a (private, full partner, full time or 4/7, willing and able to do EMGs - oddly some neurologists do not!, in an OK area) neurologist, because clearly the answer is yes. I think the question is 250 or 300. And then the answer begins to depend on location and work load (staying after 6 PM).
I'm happy to say that I chose neurology for all the right reasons. I knew the financial aspect was there, but let's face it: you can be comfortable on the salary of a FP (unless you have crushing loans and live in an expensive city with children).
I don't think the question is 200/year as a (private, full partner, full time or 4/7, willing and able to do EMGs - oddly some neurologists do not!, in an OK area) neurologist, because clearly the answer is yes. I think the question is 250 or 300. And then the answer begins to depend on location and work load (staying after 6 PM).
I'm happy to say that I chose neurology for all the right reasons. I knew the financial aspect was there, but let's face it: you can be comfortable on the salary of a FP (unless you have crushing loans and live in an expensive city with children).
