2010/2011 Internship Match Statistics Discussion

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Jon Snow said:
I'd like to see more epidemiology style research on the field, meaning #s of psychologists by region, degree types, pay levels, modeling of the impact of increasing numbers, willingness to except midlevel status (competing for the same jobs as social workers), etc. . .

I would LOVE this, but it is a tall undertaking. I wonder how open some of the early career and speciality listservs would be to a poll? Salary data/range, time spent seeking employment, sector, position level, etc. That would be useful on its own, but then comparing the data against current posting in the highest response regions?

The increase in, "looking for a full-time clinician....MSW/Psy.D/Ph.D. required". Those ads make my blood boil, but I am sure they still get high responses because people are willing to take significantly less money.

One of the limitations of almost all of the salary surveys out there is the poor metrics used to address overall compensation (private practice, per diem, etc) because many clinicians don't just have 1 job.
 
Yikes!!! There was an increase of 343 match applicants this application season, without nearly as great of an increase in APPIC sites.

Not so great for the anxiety levels.

Last year a match (both APA and non APA) was completely impossible for at least 568 people. Is there anyway to break that number down and see how much/many is spill over from previous years applicants who didnt match? Im curious to see what the increase was (if any) had their not been continuous spill over from previous years. I am also surprised that we produce nearly 4000 psychologists a year in this country. This strikes me as twice as much as what the market can really handle right now? Am I off base here?

Last year a person brought up the fact that not only is that figure sad and demoralizing, but that it also borders on unethical because it was the only profession that they knew of where one could be denied their degree and not given feedback about WHY (eg., why they did not match/get interviews)!

The more I think about it, the more I find it ethically dubious the one can be denied their degree with only the vague (non-operationalized) feedback of "you didn't "fit" well enough with our site." Such feedback provides absolutely no guide/information on how to adjust ones vita and experiences so that they can obtain their degree the next time around. I agree that I know of no other degree program or profession that tells its students that they are "not good enough" but then refuses to tell them why.

I wonder if part of the continuing problems regarding the match comes, in-part, from the (unintentional) apathy of us students. For example, when a student matches, how much time and energy do they spend thinking about the match after that Friday in Feb? Probably not alot. I often wonder that after I match (knock on wood, lol), will I continue to have the motivation to make a huge stink about the awful process and lobby for change with the powers that be? I have to say, at this point, I am so eager to get out and get on with my career, my priorities revolve around networking, getting a good job, buying a house, and having children. You, know, "normal stuff," lol. I wonder if others are privy to the same things after the match and if this, possibly, contributes to the relatively unchanged nature of the situation?
 
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I am also surprised that we produce nearly 4000 psychologists a year in this country. This strikes me as twice as much as what the market can really handle right now? Am I off base here?

I wonder if part of the continuing problems regarding the match comes, in-part, from the (unintentional) apathy of us students. For example, when a student matches, how much time and energy do they spend thinking about the match after that Friday in Feb? Probably not alot. I often wonder that after I match (knock on wood, lol), will I continue to have the motivation to make a huge stink about the awful process and lobby for change with the powers that be?

Sadly, the only attempt to manage this problem thus far has been an increase in non-accredited internship sites (e.g. potential slave-labor positions). That only benefits the sites that receive the free/cheap labor. The only way to make a dent in this trend is to crack down on the professional school programs that are admitting outrageous numbers of doctoral candidates each year.
:beat:


I have successfully navigated the match process and am on the other side, but I am still committed to pushing the APA to do it's job and end the gutting of our profession from the inside. (Slightly dramatic, but seriously).

Edit: And if the APA doesn't do something soon it will be too late. Those of us from traditional university-based programs will become outnumbered. As graduates from professional schools eventually complete the process and join the governing committees it only makes sense that they will fiercely defend their training model and programs.
 
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Last year a match (both APA and non APA) was completely impossible for at least 568 people. Is there anyway to break that number down and see how much/many is spill over from previous years applicants who didnt match? Im curious to see what the increase was (if any) had their not been continuous spill over from previous years. I am also surprised that we produce nearly 4000 psychologists a year in this country. This strikes me as twice as much as what the market can really handle right now? Am I off base here?

Erg, I'm guessing that you are right, that there was quite a few more reapplicants in the pool. Logically, it makes sense that if a higher percentage of people don't match, they would be reapplying again. That being said, however, I doubt that all of the people who did not match end up reapplying. I know that in the area I live in there is a professional school that is not accredited, and their students are not required to do an APPIC internship. Quite a few of their students enter the match each year, some don't match, and often those that don't match find something else to do that will meet the qualifications for their program so they can just be finished. They usually don't stick around for a second match cycle. I imagine it is a similar scenario for students in other non accredited programs without an APPIC requirement. I guess my point, is that the increase in students can not simply be from re-applicants. I also realize this was not what you were saying, and I agree that it would be interesting to find out what percentage of people applying this year make up the difference for the increase in volume.

I think it would also be quite interesting to get concrete data breaking down the possible reasons for this increase. It shouldn't be too hard to show with numbers how the increase in professional schools is related to the increase in applicants (If at all). If this is indeed the reason that there is such an increase, then we are in some very serious trouble in the next couple of years, because since 2007 there have been an increase in programs which means more students jumping into the match process. I also think it would be really interested to look at and see if the increase in applicants is related to the change of the clearinghouse. With the clearinghouse changing it means that students can no longer get shady backdoor internships by JUST applying through the clearinghouse. To be considered for the new 2nd match, you have to be registered for the first.

Sadly, the only attempt to manage this problem thus far has been an increase in non-accredited internship sites (e.g. potential slave-labor positions). That only benefits the sites that receive the free/cheap labor. The only way to make a dent in this trend is to crack down on the professional school programs that are admitting outrageous numbers of doctoral candidates each year.

I agree 100% that the solution can not simply be to increase APPIC sites. I think this would have some serious consequences for both quality training and the services we provide clients. Since I'm going through the Match process right now, there is a small piece of me that would like the sites to just magically increase so that I felt more assured of getting matched and finishing my program. So I sympathize with those who advocate for this. However, this is an incredibly shortsighted solution to a very complex problem.


I wonder if part of the continuing problems regarding the match comes, in-part, from the (unintentional) apathy of us students. For example, when a student matches, how much time and energy do they spend thinking about the match after that Friday in Feb? Probably not alot. I often wonder that after I match (knock on wood, lol), will I continue to have the motivation to make a huge stink about the awful process and lobby for change with the powers that be? I have to say, at this point, I am so eager to get out and get on with my career, my priorities revolve around networking, getting a good job, buying a house, and having children. You, know, "normal stuff," lol. I wonder if others are privy to the same things after the match and if this, possibly, contributes to the relatively unchanged nature of the situation?


I definitely agree that a workforce analysis is DESPERATELY needed. Once we have data to show that the work environment can literally not support the volume of psychologists pouring into the field it becomes leverage to advocate for change.

I hope it is not the case that students become jaded after match, and thus forget about the problem. Truthfully, this problem is not just affecting just the match rates. Rather, the match rate is simply a symptom of a much larger problem. Personally, I think it is a simple reflection that there are so many people entering the field and that the field can not sustain it (evidence again, that would come from a workforce analysis). So, if students finally match, and decide never to think about it again, they are only hurting themselves in the long run because I do believe the entire future of our field is affected by this problem (not to be melodramatic or anything 🙄)
 
The Match imbalance has been a serious problem for a decade and there has been a lot of discussion and analysis (and there are workforce studies). However, willingness at the academic program level to take in fewer students has been minimal. If you look at the APPIC webpage Match stats by program you can see that some schools are producing smaller classes but overall there has not been a slowdown. Until there is real leverage to regulate this or students change their enthusiasm for having a doctorate in psychology it is going to be difficult to change the trend. The option of increasing training sites is blocked by the significant costs (both stipend and accreditation funding plus human capital for supervision/training) to agencies. In these economic times, only large systems with federal or grant funding have realistic means to grow internship positions--and even these are under duress.
 
I think what we'll see is a demographic shift in who gets a doctorate in psychology (more first in family college attendees from poor backgrounds. . .because they don't know any better and have no one in their circle to help them).

I dunno about that. There are plenty of people who post here as SDN asking for "Thoughts on Professional School X" who are informed of the risks, but ultimately not deterred. Or at least do not indicate that the information made a difference.
 
"I think what we'll see is a demographic shift in who gets a doctorate in psychology (more first in family college attendees from poor backgrounds. . .because they don't know any better and have no one in their circle to help them)." Jon Snow

Thank goodness! We need some diversity in this field.
 
bump to continue previous conversation in internship thread
 
bump to continue previous conversation in internship thread

I'm not sure how much help I'd be able to offer with respect to setting things up, but at the very least, you can count me amongst those who would happily send one copy of the message along to APA/APAGS
 
i'm not sure how much help i'd be able to offer with respect to setting things up, but at the very least, you can count me amongst those who would happily send one copy of the message along to apa/apags

+1 :d
 
Does anyone know exactly (or approximately) how many students from the for-profit schools are contributing towards the match inbalance? I have read about some antedotal data (e.g. the poor match rates at Argosy's). Just curious 😀

 
Does anyone know exactly (or approximately) how many students from the for-profit schools are contributing towards the match inbalance? I have read about some antedotal data (e.g. the poor match rates at Argosy's). Just curious 😀

I have no exact numbers, no. I will say, though, that when I pulled up some of the compiled match statistics from the 2000-2009 decade (available somewhere on the APPIC site) and sorted schools alphabetically, I was shocked at the low match rates in the first few schools listed. If you added the number of unmatched students from those programs together each year, you could get a decent idea of what % of the entire unmatched population they represented in each cohort.
 
Does anyone know exactly (or approximately) how many students from the for-profit schools are contributing towards the match inbalance? I have read about some antedotal data (e.g. the poor match rates at Argosy's). Just curious 😀


You can actually pull up the APPIC data and look at the raw number of students certain programs have entering the match each year. Some programs have as many as 100 students entering the match in 2010 😱. So, to answer your question, there are some pretty hard data that exist that show that there are a small handful of schools that make up a disproportionate percentage of students entering the match in the first place.

If anyone is interested, the Wisconsin Consortium has a ton of great articles about internship in general and some which address the match imbalance specifically.

http://eptc.education.wisc.edu/WICPP/Resources.aspx

Its good reading, if you have the time (which I'm sure clinical psychology students have loads of 😉)
 
IsItOver, I am about to email you a very skeletal version of a letter. Don't know why this was so difficult for me to articulate.
 
I am all in favor of the grassroots approach, and I was reading what started on the internship thread. I'm interested in helping out in any way that I can, and I will sign a letter to APA/APAGS.
 
You can actually pull up the APPIC data and look at the raw number of students certain programs have entering the match each year. Some programs have as many as 100 students entering the match in 2010 😱. So, to answer your question, there are some pretty hard data that exist that show that there are a small handful of schools that make up a disproportionate percentage of students entering the match in the first place.

If anyone is interested, the Wisconsin Consortium has a ton of great articles about internship in general and some which address the match imbalance specifically.

http://eptc.education.wisc.edu/WICPP/Resources.aspx

Its good reading, if you have the time (which I'm sure clinical psychology students have loads of 😉)

Thanks for adding to my reading list! 😀
 
I've been told, and, after having examined the data found, that in the majority of cases (82%), applicants match with their 1-3 choices. I wonder how important this is or if it is reallllly misleading in some cases.

For example, if we have 10 interviews at super competitive slots and rank our top 3, what are the odds that we would even be able to get number 4,5,6, etc before those slots were actually filled? In NP, there are few programs with more than 2 NP slots so this has me kinda worried. Things get even more complicated if we rank multiple tracks in certain programs like ucla where you could rank more than 4 tracks.
 
I've been told, and, after having examined the data found, that in the majority of cases (82%), applicants match with their 1-3 choices. I wonder how important this is or if it is reallllly misleading in some cases.

For example, if we have 10 interviews at super competitive slots and rank our top 3, what are the odds that we would even be able to get number 4,5,6, etc before those slots were actually filled? In NP, there are few programs with more than 2 NP slots so this has me kinda worried. Things get even more complicated if we rank multiple tracks in certain programs like ucla where you could rank more than 4 tracks.

Your ranking of the program, in the vast majority of cases, won't affect your ability to get a spot at any of the places that have ranked you. Thus, if you don't get any of your top 3 spots and, while attempting to match you to those spots, the program had filled all spots for your #4 choice, you would still match to #4 if that program ranked you more highly than any its current matchees (effectively bumping one of those students and putting you in his/her spot).

The key point to remember is that, for good or bad, a spot isn't officially taken until the entire match process is complete. Until then, all spots are still up for grabs, and applicants can be shuffled around accordingly.
 
I'm guessing that top sites actually interview fewer people and fill from higher in their rank lists. Those who don't match with them will go to their less preferred sites...filling positions where they are the most wanted...at perhaps less competititve (but still desired sites). The cascade isn't entirely orderly though, due to individual differences in preferences. As long as you have enough interviews yielding positions to rank, your chances remain reasonably good. Those most at risk of not matching are those with only one or two sites to list who are restricted to a specific geographic area that is highly desirable and therefore competition is stronger. Similarly, sites need relatively longer lists of students if they are less competitive, so they tend to interview more students and post longer lists in hopes of filling. The "bumping" process really is guided by the order of preference, first from the student and then by the site.
 
I'm guessing that top sites actually interview fewer people and fill from higher in their rank lists. Those who don't match with them will go to their less preferred sites...filling positions where they are the most wanted...at perhaps less competititve (but still desired sites). The cascade isn't entirely orderly though, due to individual differences in preferences. As long as you have enough interviews yielding positions to rank, your chances remain reasonably good. Those most at risk of not matching are those with only one or two sites to list who are restricted to a specific geographic area that is highly desirable and therefore competition is stronger. Similarly, sites need relatively longer lists of students if they are less competitive, so they tend to interview more students and post longer lists in hopes of filling. The "bumping" process really is guided by the order of preference, first from the student and then by the site.


i wish i asked more of the current interns at my interviews where they ranked the site. I only asked 1 girl and she said she ranked the current site (where she is an intern) number 2. Perhaps a poll could be done
 
i wish i asked more of the current interns at my interviews where they ranked the site. I only asked 1 girl and she said she ranked the current site (where she is an intern) number 2. Perhaps a poll could be done

Well, I dunno about asking current interns while at the interview. It kinda puts them on the spot, esp. in the rare case that they DIDN'T rank their site that highly.

Anyhoot, I ranked my site #1. Out of everyone from my grad cohort who applied with me last year and the other interns at my site this year (11 people total), only 1 did not match to within their top 2 (she matched to her #4). So I would trust that in most cases if you are fortunate enough to match, you are also going to match to one of your top choices.
 
i wish i asked more of the current interns at my interviews where they ranked the site. I only asked 1 girl and she said she ranked the current site (where she is an intern) number 2. Perhaps a poll could be done


was that a site in NYC? (you don't have to be specific😀) because I was a witness to the situation that you described
 
was that a site in NYC? (you don't have to be specific😀) because I was a witness to the situation that you described

no a certain site in southern cali 🙂
 
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