2011 AOA Match Data

[HockeyDr09]

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There have been a lot of threads lately regarding the match rates of D.O's compared to M.D's/Carib M.D's. There have also been threads asking the difficulty of D.O's matching into certain specialties. Hopefully this thread can put some of the misinformation to rest.

I came across the 2011 AOA match data today and tried to decipher how many matches there were in each specialty and where the residencies were. Unfortunately the AOA did a poor job of displaying the statistics (at least on this page) so I took it upon myself to make a spreadsheet that was easily customizable. I'm sure there are a few errors, but I think it's mostly accurate. If I have time I might incorporate the MD match data in there as well, so we can see where virtually all of graduating DO's have matched. Some of the data is listed below.



Anesthesiology - 27 matches
Dermatology - 24 matches
Emergency Medicine - 216 matches
Family Practice - 386 matches
Internal Medicine - 317 matches
Neuro Surgery - 11 matches
Neurology - 11 matches
OBGYN - 68 matches
Opthalmology- 11 matches
Orthopedic Surgery - 84 matches
Otolaryn & Facial Plastic - 22 matches
Pediatrics - 51 matches
Psychiatry - 23 matches
General Surgery - 102 matches
Traditional Internship - 245 matches
Urological Surgery - 19 matches

All of this data is listed on the link posted above. I cannot say for sure if this is only PGY-1 matching or if it includes PGY-2. I can't say I'm well educated on which residencies really start PGY-2, and I'm not exactly sure how the Traditional Internship works. If anyone wants to comment on that I would appreciate it.

These residencies are ONLY for DO's (as far as I was aware) and it seems like the residency options for DO's are far better than some will lead you to believe. DO's also have decent numbers in the MD match, 76 for Anesthesiology, 159 for emergency medicine, 292 for internal medicine, etc.

Hopefully this will put some of the "DO's are only primary care" to rest. Do many DO's match in primary care? Of course, but this doesn't mean they aren't matching anywhere else.

All of this data is PRE-scramble. Here is some more info on internship structuring.

 

[Dr Yiot]

First the underdog thread now this! Thanx a lot for taking the time to do this hockey doc. I'm sure a lot of members here will find it very very helpfull

 

[JeetKuneDo]

I was checking the EM matches. AZCOM has its own residency? 1 spot too.

 

[HockeyDr09]

First the underdog thread now this! Thanx a lot for taking the time to do this hockey doc. I'm sure a lot of members here will find it very very helpfull

No problem. At first it was looking like this thread was going to get completely buried with 5 views, I was like 🙁.

When I have some time I am going to add the MD match data as well. Then people can have an objective view of all of the data, and they can draw their conclusions from it.

I came to SDN knowing very little about DO's. Over the years (I started out as a lurker for a while, and then finally made a name come application time.) I learned a ton about the profession and gained some valuable insight into the whole process of becoming an attending physician. Starting some semi-useful threads was the least I could do.

 

[DrFraud]

I came to SDN knowing very little about DO's. Over the years (I started out as a lurker for a while, and then finally made a name come application time.) I learned a ton about the profession and gained some valuable insight into the whole process of becoming an attending physician. Starting some semi-useful threads was the least I could do.

I am sure many people today are in similar shoes to you. For their benefit, because a lot of people visiting this site here acknoledge that their first goal is LCME MD, and have the goal of securing an ACGME residency position, what is the number of students graduating from DO programs last year who actually found an ACGME residency spot out of the total number of students who graduated from DO programs last year?

 

[HockeyDr09]

I am sure many people today are in similar shoes to you. For their benefit, because a lot of people visiting this site here acknoledge that their first goal is LCME MD, and have the goal of securing an ACGME residency position, what is the number of students graduating from DO programs last year who actually foun a an ACGME residency spot out of the total number of students who graduate from DO last year?

When I have some time at the end of the week I'll see what data I can find to add to my original post. Based on the ACGME data (attached) 1,444 DO's matched out of 2,045 who attempted for a 70% match rate.

I'll explain the issue with taking that statistic solely at face value. The AOA match occurs before the MD match. ANY applicant who matches in the the AOA match is REMOVED from the MD match, and does not have an opportunity to match in any of the ACGME locations.

One thing that many people do not take into consideration is the many of the AOA matches are in dually accredited programs between both the ACGME and the AOA.

For example I chose a random Emergency Medicine Residency from the AOA match

Listed in the Accrediation status of the residency was

Dual Program - Is an AOA program in which an osteopathic trainee is registered in a residency program that is accredited by both the AOA and ACGME. The osteopathic trainee receives both AOA and ACGME credit. Trainees who complete dual programs have the option to become board certified by either or both the AOA and the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS).

From my experience a majority of programs have this status. I'll see if I can find hard stats on that when I start digging around at the end of the week.

To expand on the point I made before, many of the top notch DO candidates opt out of the MD match to go after the highly competitive DO specialties. It's virtually impossible to know what the stats would have been if these ultra competitive candidates went for the MD match. However, the same could be said for DO candidates who are at the low end of their classes and knew they would have a hard time matching an MD residency so they opted to stay in the DO match. It's difficult to state exactly how many DO's would have matched, had they all been forced to match ACGME.

My point is that it's very important to take into consideration the AOA match as well as the ACGME match. It's also important to understand that many of the AOA matches are dually accredited anyway.

Many people already know that the AOA match is only for DO students. A different perspective on this however, is to look at how many AOA slots are available for the ultra competitive residencies. The data on my first post is currently only for the DO match. This means that every year there HAS to be a bare minimum of

Anesthesiology - 27 matches
Dermatology - 24 matches
Neuro Surgery - 11 matches
Neurology - 11 matches
OBGYN - 68 matches
Opthalmology- 11 matches
Orthopedic Surgery - 84 matches
Otolaryn & Facial Plastic - 22 matches
General Surgery - 102 matches
Urological Surgery - 19 matches

EVERY YEAR there WILL be a minimum of that specific number of DO's in those fields. Not to mention candidates can also match ACGME, and that both AOA and ACGME residencies are growing, so those number should be increasing (slowly) in the future. They can't get "squeezed out" by MD students, because MD students can't apply. Will competition increase in the coming years? Of course, but year in and year out, there will be that many DO's coming out of the pipeline.

 

[DrFraud]

I am sure many people today are in similar shoes to you. For their benefit, because a lot of people visiting this site here acknoledge that their first goal is LCME MD, and have the goal of securing an ACGME residency position, what is the number of students graduating from DO programs last year who actually found an ACGME residency spot out of the total number of students who graduated from DO programs last year?

Based on the ACGME data (attached) 1,444 DO's matched out of 2,045 who attempted for a 70% match rate.

Ok I will try again, as you indicated that the purpose of this thread is to offer strait-forward data. Please try and answer in a striaght forward way. What is the total number of DO graduates last year who matched into ACGME residency spots out of the total number of DO graduates last year.

 

[SoulinNeed]

Ok I will try again, as you indicated that the purpose of this thread is to offer strait-forward data. Please try and answer in a striaght forward way. What is the total number of DO graduates last year who matched into ACGME residency spots out of the total number of DO graduates last year.

No offense, but what would be the point of that when half of all DO graduates try the AOA match, and if they match AOA, then they are pulled out of ACGME?

 

[thumbz]

.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Ok I will try again, as you indicated that the purpose of this thread is to offer strait-forward data. Please try and answer in a striaght forward way. What is the total number of DO graduates last year who matched into ACGME residency spots out of the total number of DO graduates last year.

DO Class of 2010 = 4,228 students.

Out of those 4,228,
2,045 students opted for the match.
1,444 students match ACGME.
71% match

The number you want is
1,444 students match
4,228 students existed

34% of DO students matched into the ACGME match for the class of 2010.

1895 matched AOA

45% of DO students matched into the AOA match for the class of 2010.

79% matched outright.
Does not include the scramble.


Personally, I'm more interested in the specialties of the residencies matched (listed in the first post), than the total percentage of DO's who matched ACGME, despite half of the DO's not even applying to ACGME. But here is the data for you nonetheless.

Any pre-medical students reading this thread can decide if they would rather match in ONLY ACGME and exclude themselves from ~2,500 AOA residency spots, or look at the data objectively, and look at BOTH the AOA and ACGME match data.

 

[painmd87]

Data is beginning to confuse me -- we've got # of members of the class of 2010 with the AOA 2011 match data and NRMP 2010 data. Or at least data with those dates...

I'm guessing DrFraud is going to come back with a statement about the inferiority of DO applicants in the MD match (seems to be the m.o.) but I can't quite predict why. Comparing the number of students who matched MD divided by the number of graduates is illogical. Why do you want to know who succeeded at something they didn't even try for? For the future benefit of applicants, it's not important to see the total #s, it's important to see who succeeded when they tried; looking at the graduates who didn't apply ACGME (or withdrew) doesn't impact my ability to predict my potential success in the ACGME match.

 

[DrFraud]

DO Class of 2010 = 4,228 students.


The number you want is
1,444 students match
4,228 students existed

34% of DO students matched into the ACGME match for the class of 2010.

Well here is one comparison that might help anyone interested in obtaining an ACGME residency, and becoming an ACGME Board Certified Doctor.

The percentage this year of DO graduates going into ACMGE Resiency programs is 34%. The percentage for Carib. MD graduates from Saba, Ross, SGU and AUC is roughly 88-95% (for students without a major red flag, this number is closer to 95-99%).

So if an applicant was interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

 

[painmd87]

Well here is one comparison that might help anyone interested in obtaining an ACGME residency, and becoming an ACGME Board Certified Doctor.

The percentage this year of DO graduates going into ACMGE Resiency programs is 34%. The percentage for Carib. MD graduates from Saba, Ross, SGU and AUC is roughly 88-95% (for students without a major red flag, this number is closer to 95-99%).

So if an applicant was interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

You're going to argue that Carib. MD graduates fare better than US MD graduates, who match 88% of their total graduating class? How can 88-95% of them match ACGME when only 47.3% of US Citizen, Foreign Graduates matched in 2010?

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

I am sure many people today are in similar shoes to you. For their benefit, because a lot of people visiting this site here acknoledge that their first goal is LCME MD, and have the goal of securing an ACGME residency position, what is the number of students graduating from DO programs last year who actually found an ACGME residency spot out of the total number of students who graduated from DO programs last year?

ACGME or AOA residency, either way, you end up an attending physician. most people just want to become fully licensed, practicing physicians. so you can stop projecting YOUR goals on everyone else. enjoy hurricane season!

 

[athadam]

Well here is one comparison that might help anyone interested in obtaining an ACGME residency, and becoming an ACGME Board Certified Doctor.

The percentage this year of DO graduates going into ACMGE Resiency programs is 34%. The percentage for Carib. MD graduates from Saba, Ross, SGU and AUC is roughly 88-95% (for students without a major red flag, this number is closer to 95-99%).

So if an applicant was interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

Dude, please don't use stats like that to promote off-shore program, at least try to compare them objectively.

 

[HockeyDr09]

Well here is one comparison that might help anyone interested in obtaining an ACGME residency, and becoming an ACGME Board Certified Doctor.

The percentage this year of DO graduates going into ACMGE Resiency programs is 34%. The percentage for Carib. MD graduates from Saba, Ross, SGU and AUC is roughly 88-95% (for students without a major red flag, this number is closer to 95-99%).

So if an applicant was interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

Originally Posted by AOA
Dual Program - Is an AOA program in which an osteopathic trainee is registered in a residency program that is accredited by both the AOA and ACGME. The osteopathic trainee receives both AOA and ACGME credit. Trainees who complete dual programs have the option to become board certified by either or both the AOA and the American Board of Medical Specialties (ABMS).

It seems like your biggest concern (based on this post) is that you're really only interested in becoming an ACGME (ABMS) Board Certified physician. As a DO, you could enter an AOA Dual Certified residency and become both (or either) a AOA and ACGME (ABMS) certified physician.



I have NO IDEA where you are getting data that shows 85%-95% match rate for AUC and SGU. But here is the actual data for AUC, a solid Caribbean school, against DMU, a solid DO school. You tell me where you want to be.



American University of the Caribbean 2010 Match Data

Anesthesiology - 1
Emergency Medicine - 11
Family Practice - 46
General Surgery - 4
Internal Medicine - 59
Neurology - 3
OB/GYN - 12
Pathology - 1
Pediatrics - 16
Prelim Medicine - 9
Prelim Surgery - 6
Psychiatry Residency - 12
Radiology - 2
Traditional Year - 5
Total 187

~340 students start a year. They have three start dates, January, May, and September. I am trying to find concrete evidence showing their actual enrollment numbers, but they virtually impossible to find.
55% Match

DMU-COM Class of 2010

Anesthesiology - 9
Emergency Medicine - 26
Family Medicine - 43
Internal Medicine - 30
Medicine-Preliminary - 6
Neurology - 4
Neuromusculoskeletal Medicine - OMT 1
Obstetrics - Gynecology - 14
Ophthalmology - 4
Otolaryngology - 1
Pathology -3
Pediatrics -16
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation - 10
Psychiatry - 9
Radiology - Diagnostic - 3
Surgery - General - 6
Surgery - Neurological - 1
Surgery - Orthopaedic - 6
Surgery - Otolaryn & Facial Plastic - 2
Traditional Rotating Internship - 7

Total Students - 201
Started with ~212

95% Match

One start date.


This thread wasn't really meant to be a DO vs Caribbean thread. But, I am actually glad you posted your comments on the Caribbean Dr. Fraud. There is a lot of bias toward going DO over Caribbean here, so many people don't get the facts about either one. Now anyone interested in both options has a lot of factual information and they can make an educated decision. I believe virtually everyone reading this thread will see how illogical it is to compare the total number of DO graduates to how many matched strictly MD. Especially when more than half of DO graduates did not even participate.

If you don't want to take into consideration that many AOA residencies are certified by the ACGME, and allow you to take the Board certification exam that MD's take, then fine, but it should be acknowledged. If you don't want to take into consideration that 70.6% of DO's actually participating in the MD match actually matched, then fine. Also, if you don't want to take into consideration the fact that there are more DO grads than Caribbean grads in ultra competitive residency positions because there are a multitude of residencies open ONLY to DO's then fine. If you don't want to take into consideration the attrition rates of DO schools compared to Caribbean schools, then fine. I would implore anyone who is seriously considering either pathway to look at the facts more than the rhetoric.

 

[DocEspana]

Dr Hockey also pointed out that AUC has an estimated 55% rate. So I'll tackle SGU.

SGU had 505 matches in 2011. It is known for a fact that in 2009 600 SGU students from the 2011 residency cycle were trained in the HHC of NYC alone for their core rotations. SGU also has private hospitals and hospitals located in states other than NY that are training people for their cores. the current HHC hospitals they are at: 8-9 (they seemed to have taken one off their list. the 2010 number was 9), with 600 students in them. Non-HHC hospitals: 39-40. With unknown number of students there. It is obvious there are many more students that I can't ennumerate. Obviously I dont expect anything like 2400 students at 40 hospitals. But I would assume there are probably 3 or 4 hundred more in the other ~40 hospitals.

But lets go with best possible case scenario. 600 students in 8 or 9 hospitals and 39 or 40 other facilities sit entirely empty. Its still 505 matches out of 600 students. That is an 84.2% match rate, at the absolute best. And you have to assume its much lower than that since I've assumed there are zero students in 39 hospitals.

https://baysgu35.sgu.edu/ERD/2011/ResidPost.nsf/BYPGY?OpenView&RestrictToCategory=PGY2&Count=-1

As a side note: not that we can get these numbers, but if we want to really go number for number you will need to collect the US ACGME rate for these schools vs the rate of everyone (dropouts, ACGME residencies, UK doctors, Granadian doctors, Dutch Doctors, Sabaian Doctors, Dominica-ian doctors, people "lost in the system" who didnt get a residency immediately after first attempt)

 

[Longshanks]

Well here is one comparison that might help anyone interested in obtaining an ACGME residency, and becoming an ACGME Board Certified Doctor.

The percentage this year of DO graduates going into ACMGE Resiency programs is 34%. The percentage for Carib. MD graduates from Saba, Ross, SGU and AUC is roughly 88-95% (for students without a major red flag, this number is closer to 95-99%).

So if an applicant was interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

lulz

I'm surprised HockeyDr walked into your logic trap, after repeatedly asking for ACGME matched over total graduates . However, like your Dr. Freud whom you mock as DrFraud - your logic here misses the mark when comparing DO to Carib.

To start, let's take this objectively and strictly look at the ACGME's data. Doing show will demonstrate that DO's participating in the ACGME matched at 70%, while IMGs were less than 50%. These match rates do not include "pre-matching". So when adding in pre-matches, that would raise the match rates slightly for both. An argument can be made that PD's prefer pre-matching American trained DO's over IMG/FMGs, but that's for another thread and that can be looked at in other sub-forums on SDN.

Looking at that 34% number you came up with is incredibly misleading, and as we see was done purposely by you for your biased reasons. What is of greater concern are how many DO graduates match into a residency which will train them to be a licensed physician in the US. This is where the two are greatly different. DOs participating in the ACGME match and whom successfully matched is 70%, as confirmed by the ACGME. The other DO graduates enter the AOA match and match well there, comparable to how MD graduates match into their own match of the ACGME. Together, this creates a total match in the mid to upper 90s for every DO school. Those who seek very competitive specialties may decide to go the AOA route (unless they are that superstar that matched ACGME integrated plastics at Kansas this past year), so there will be DOs practicing in those fields in the future. And though certain programs may still be off limits to DO's for residency, these programs are receptive to DO's for fellowships. However, these are the same programs that are also off limits for FMG/IMGs. So nearly all of their entering class will become licensed physicians in the US.

The same cannot be said about those going the Caribbean route, with significant attrition rates of entering classes, selectively allowing only certain students to take the boards, and still only achieving a 50% match rate into US residencies. The Carribean route therefore is nothing but false advertising, and a last ditch effort for people that are motivated enough to put in the work to become a doctor. It banks on the hopes of naive or rich pre-meds to gamble that they will not be one of the people left to the wayside of class attrition rates or be denied the opportunity to take the boards, and then hope their chances of matching into any residency in the US is that of a coin flip.

 

[HockeyDr09]

lulz

I'm surprised HockeyDr walked into your logic trap, after repeatedly asking for ACGME matched over total graduates . However, like your Dr. Freud whom you mock as DrFraud - your logic here misses the mark when comparing DO to Carib.

To start, let's take this objectively and strictly look at the ACGME's data. Doing show will demonstrate that DO's participating in the ACGME matched at 70%, while IMGs were less than 50%. These match rates do not include "pre-matching". So when adding in pre-matches, that would raise the match rates slightly for both. An argument can be made that PD's prefer pre-matching American trained DO's over IMG/FMGs, but that's for another thread and that can be looked at in other sub-forums on SDN.

Looking at that 34% number you came up with is incredibly misleading, and as we see was done purposely by you for your biased reasons. What is of greater concern are how many DO graduates match into a residency which will train them to be a licensed physician in the US. This is where the two are greatly different. DOs participating in the ACGME match and whom successfully matched is 70%, as confirmed by the ACGME. The other DO graduates enter the AOA match and match well there, comparable to how MD graduates match into their own match of the ACGME. Together, this creates a total match in the mid to upper 90s for every DO school. Those who seek very competitive specialties may decide to go the AOA route (unless they are that superstar that matched ACGME integrated plastics at Kansas this past year), so there will be DOs practicing in those fields in the future. And though certain programs may still be off limits to DO's for residency, these programs are receptive to DO's for fellowships. However, these are the same programs that are also off limits for FMG/IMGs. So nearly all of their entering class will become licensed physicians in the US.

The same cannot be said about those going the Caribbean route, with significant attrition rates of entering classes, selectively allowing only certain students to take the boards, and still only achieving a 50% match rate into US residencies. The Carribean route therefore is nothing but false advertising, and a last ditch effort for people that are motivated enough to put in the work to become a doctor. It banks on the hopes of naive or rich pre-meds to gamble that they will not be one of the people left to the wayside of class attrition rates or be denied the opportunity to take the boards, and then hope their chances of matching into any residency in the US is that of a coin flip.

I didn't walk into his trap. I figured posting the data would should just how biased his perspective was. Anyone looking at the data objectively would see that the "34% match rate" is a ridiculous manipulation of statistics. But to be fair to his side, I posted it. If anything, it helps my argument because it shows that the only way Caribbean grads show an edge in matching is when there is a SIGNIFICANT manipulation in data. Add the fact that he is arguing that he wants to be an ACGME Board certified physician, and I proved that you can do that in most AOA residencies, you will see how the 34% is even more ridiculous. If all he cares about is becoming an ACGME Board certified physician, (as he has stated numerous times), then that 34% would go WAY up because there are a ton of ACGME Board certified physicians coming out of AOA residencies. Either way, I have no issue with him arguing his point, as long as it remains civil.

 

[TrimtheChute]

Thanks for posting this data, which is very eye-opening for me. I was debating on whether to take the USMLE, but I realize that I have to since there are not nearly enough residency spots for DO's. I didn't know how large the gap was (2553 AOA spots for 4228 students in 2010), and the gap will continue to grow unless the AOA adds more spots.

 

[slammer922]

Thanks for posting this data, which is very eye-opening for me. I was debating on whether to take the USMLE, but I realize that I have to since there are not nearly enough residency spots for DO's. I didn't know how large the gap was (2553 AOA spots for 4228 students in 2010), and the gap will continue to grow unless the AOA adds more spots.

Correct me if my thinking is off base...
But I think it depends on which specialty you want to get into.
For example, PM&R is very COMLEX friendly so there is no need to take USMLE. Conversely, if you are trying to get into an ultra competitive specialty (Derm) why take the USMLE if there is a .1% chance of getting a AGCME spot. Will it make you more competitive for mid tier residency positions if you take the USMLE (if you do well yes), but it is not true that you have to take the USMLE because there are not enough AOA residency spots.

 

[munchymanRX]

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather do an AOA derm or surgery residency than an ACGME family practice one...

Chances are you're going to end up in the latter coming from overseas.

Not saying there's anything wrong with that, all I'm saying is that if you want to specialize in the US, stay in the goddamn US.

 

[DrFraud]

Not saying there's anything wrong with that, all I'm saying is that if you want to specialize in the US, stay in the goddamn US.

I will give much better advice to premeds.

For those who wish to specialize in the United States, your best chance for doing this is by doing well throughout undergrad, and getting into a US LCME MD program.

 

[DrFraud]

Dr Hockey also pointed out that AUC has an estimated 55% rate.

Again I will repeat so there is no confusion. The rate of students who enter into ACGME accredeted residencies who graduated from Saba, SGU, AUC, or Ross was somewhere over 88%, and much higher for those without any red flags. This includes:

1) students who matched, and
2) those who signed contracts outside of the Match

If you are looking to be honest with applicants, than be honest.

So for applicants interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options (DO vs. AUC, Saba, SGU, Ross) is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

Again I will repeat so there is no confusion. The rate of students who enter into ACGME accredeted residencies who graduated from Saba, SGU, AUC, or Ross was somewhere over 88%, and much higher for those without any red flags. This includes:

1) students who matched, and
2) those who signed contracts outside of the Match

If you are looking to be honest with applicants, than be honest.

we're waiting...

 

[GTP]

I hope you are not starting this D.O vs caribbean thread again. You know who you are 😡

 

[DrFraud]

As a DO, you could enter an AOA Dual Certified residency and become both (or either) a AOA and ACGME (ABMS) certified physician.

Are there any limitations or licensing issues with this. (situations where the fine print hides the truth)

For example, are there any states where a DO who matches into OB/GYN as an ACGME resident will then be unable to get AOA board certification.

I do know that for students who complete the required curriculum from Ross, AUC, Saba, and SGU (assuming they follow the rules for doing clinical roations as medical students) are eligible for ACGME practice after finishing an ACGME residency in all 50 states.

As far as I know, this is not the case for DO students who select ACGME residencies, because there are licensing issues for DOs in about 5 states who go straight into ACMGE residencies.

 

[DrFraud]

I don't know about you guys, but I'd rather do an AOA derm or surgery residency than an ACGME family practice one...

You have to be honest with yourself before being honest with others. The scales of difficulty between getting a family practice residency and derm are not even remotely close.

 

[cliffhuxtableDO]

You have to be honest with yourself before being honest with others. The scales of difficulty between getting a family practice residency and derm are not even remotely close.

Why do you love poaching DO threads and turning them into a battle about the general unfortunate, uncertain situation in the Caribbean?

 

[87DO15]

Come on guys, just let the argument die. Few people are going to be stupid enough to believe the 88% vs 34% without checking the context of the information. And if they are...well, that's not exactly our problem, is it? Let them take their chances.

Fraud is just trying to get a rise out of you, and there's no point in rehashing the same argument over and over again. Just let this thread die.

(Because nobody has answered regarding the 5 states...to potential applicants worried about the problem Fraud brought up, look up Resolution 42. Problem solved. And a DO entering an ACGME residency will be boarded by the ABIM, not the AOBIM (or equivalent for whatever other specialty). It's not as if you can't get board certification, that's a ridiculous comment.)

 

[Poliscidoc]

Dr. Fraud where did you match again?

 

[Guek]

Come on guys, just let the argument die. Few people are going to be stupid enough to believe the 88% vs 34% without checking the context of the information. And if they are...well, that's not exactly our problem, is it? Let them take their chances.

Fraud is just trying to get a rise out of you, and there's no point in rehashing the same argument over and over again. Just let this thread die.

(Because nobody has answered regarding the 5 states...to potential applicants worried about the problem Fraud brought up, look up Resolution 42. Problem solved. And a DO entering an ACGME residency will be boarded by the ACGME, not the AOA. It's not as if you can't get board certification, that's a ridiculous comment.)

no, I don't think we should let this thread die since it contains useful information for potential docs out there. Since DrFraud has ignored HockeyDr's well put rebuttal, we should probably just ignore him as well.

I do have a question though for those in the know. What is the primary difference between and ACGME and a AOA residency apart from one being allopathic and one being osteopathic? As far as career choices go, will there be benefits to going ACGME over AOA? Will hospitals or clinics turn down AOA certified surgeons and derms? Are there just more spots available in ACGME over AOA?

I guess I'm asking why I should even care about how many DOs match into ACGME.

 

[DocEspana]

no, I don't think we should let this thread die since it contains useful information for potential docs out there. Since DrFraud has ignored HockeyDr's well put rebuttal, we should probably just ignore him as well.

I do have a question though for those in the know. What is the primary difference between and ACGME and a AOA residency apart from one being allopathic and one being osteopathic? As far as career choices go, will there be benefits to going ACGME over AOA? Will hospitals or clinics turn down AOA certified surgeons and derms? Are there just more spots available in ACGME over AOA?

I guess I'm asking why I should even care about how many DOs match into ACGME.

No difference beyond 1) some AOA fields (Family medicine, peds and non-fellowship internal medicine comes to mind) tend to require a minimal upkeep of your OMM knowledge for recertification exams. 2) The checks you write for membership are to the AOA instead of the ACGME (or whatever the allopathic CME board is).

No hospital is going to look at who accredited you, they just want competent doctors in whatever field they need to fill. And someone mentioned above, if you're dual accredited you are fine in all 50 states. If youre AOA accredited you're fine in all 50 states. If you're ACGME accredited and willing to fill out some paperwork your fine in all 50 states (45 if you absolutely hate paperwork. but I do believe paperwork is part of the job anyway).

ACGME has a higher sheer number of spots. Both seem to have specialties at about the same ratio to students who graduate each year (and AOA technically has specialties at a higher rate per applicant than ACGME. but applicants < students). Both offer the same residency types. So yea. No real difference to be seen except who you write your CME checks to.

 

[MedStudentWanna]

Well here is one comparison that might help anyone interested in obtaining an ACGME residency, and becoming an ACGME Board Certified Doctor.

The percentage this year of DO graduates going into ACMGE Resiency programs is 34%. The percentage for Carib. MD graduates from Saba, Ross, SGU and AUC is roughly 88-95% (for students without a major red flag, this number is closer to 95-99%).

So if an applicant was interested in securing an ACGME residency, and they were confident that they will graduate from their respective program, the difference between the two options is roughly 34% vs over 88% in terms of going into ACGME accredited residency programs.

You're a *****. No, seriously. You're a *****. I honestly haven't found anyone more *****ic than you. Now let's pose the question: how many people exist on the planet? What's the percentage of those who got into St. George's last year? Moral -- St. George's is highly competitive and will only take the very best of the whole wide world.

I can't believe you haven't been tagged a troll yet. Oh, and this is coming from an MD student ashamed that you'll share the letters after my name.

 

[Longshanks]

DocEspana explains it well, with the only additional difference I will mention is that if you are interested in certain fellowships for medical sub-specialties (Infectious Disease for example), there are more options through the ACGME route, in terms of location generally, and applicants are typically better off had they been trained in an ACGME residency to achieve an ACGME fellowship. That's not always the case, for all specialties with fellowships, but it is one minor difference if one is looking to sub-specialize.

 

[DrFraud]

No hospital is going to look at who accredited you, they just want competent doctors in whatever field they need to fill. And someone mentioned above, if you're dual accredited you are fine in all 50 states. If youre AOA accredited you're fine in all 50 states. If you're ACGME accredited and willing to fill out some paperwork your fine in all 50 states (45 if you absolutely hate paperwork. but I do believe paperwork is part of the job anyway).

ACGME has a higher sheer number of spots. Both seem to have specialties at about the same ratio to students who graduate each year (and AOA technically has specialties at a higher rate per applicant than ACGME. but applicants < students). Both offer the same residency types. So yea. No real difference to be seen except who you write your CME checks to.

This is not correct (and I am anything of an Osteopathic expert, but I know that some members are dedicated to misleading newbies.)

Currently, a few states require that Osteopathic graduates complete an AOA transition year for licensure. Osteopathic grads who go directly into ACGME residencies will not be eligible to practice in these states. So this issue is much more than just filling out paperwork.






http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-31646.html

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=579891

http://www.oldpremeds.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/2655/

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/postdoctoral-training/Pages/resolution-42.aspx

 

[87DO15]

This is not correct (and I am anything of an Osteopathic expert, but I know that some members are dedicated to misleading newbies.)

Currently, a few states require that Osteopathic graduates complete an AOA transition year for licensure. Osteopathic grads who go directly into ACGME residencies will not be eligible to practice in these states. So this issue is much more than just filling out paperwork.






http://forums.studentdoctor.net/archive/index.php/t-31646.html

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=579891

http://www.oldpremeds.org/fusionbb/showtopic.php?tid/2655/

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/postdoctoral-training/Pages/resolution-42.aspx

I mentioned Res 42 earlier in my response...Applying for Resolution 42 is the way to get licensed in those 5 other states. The last article I read about it, something like 1% get turned down for Resolution 42 approval. By the way, the threads you linked were from 1999, 2002, and 2008, so only 1 really counts as up-to-date. The 2008 one even talks about Resolution 42 in it...You can get your PGY1 year approved by the AOA by going through Res. 42.

(How is this more than just paperwork?)

 

[DrFraud]

You're a *****. No, seriously. You're a *****. I honestly haven't found anyone more *****ic than you. Now let's pose the question: how many people exist on the planet? What's the percentage of those who got into St. George's last year? Moral -- St. George's is highly competitive and will only take the very best of the whole wide world.

I can't believe you haven't been tagged a troll yet. Oh, and this is coming from an MD student ashamed that you'll share the letters after my name.

And soon in the not too distant future.......I'll be an ACGME Board Certified MD ***** 🙂

 

[Bostonredsox]

I will give much better advice to premeds.

For those who wish to specialize in the United States, your best chance for doing this is by doing well throughout undergrad, and getting into a US LCME MD program.

False.

Your best bet is to get into school in the US as that will increase your chances of getting a residency spot dramatically compared to being an IMG. Whether you are an MD and take an ACGME spot, a DO and take and ACGME spot or a DO and take an AOA spot, you will still be a board certified physician. Recruiting services do not care if your boards are through the ACGME or the AOA so long as you have one of them, as they are afterall, equivalent. If you are an MD and complete and ACGME residency in IM and fellowship in cards or a DO and complete either the same, or choose to do an AOA IM residency and AOA cards fellowship, you will still be a board certified cardiologist with equal pay and respect. DrFrauds statements are entirely incorrect.

 

[ShyRem]

Fraud: Um... no. There is a pathway where you can get a waiver. It's called Resolution 42. There are requirements to be met, but few have been denied this waiver. With the waiver via Resolution 42, a DO can practice in those 4 states.

 

[DrFraud]

Did you completely skip over what I'd said? Applying for Resolution 42 is the way to get licensed in those 5 other states. The last article I read about it, something like 1% get turned down for Resolution 42 approval. By the way, the threads you linked were from 1999, 2002, and 2008, so only 1 really counts as up-to-date. The 2008 one even talks about Resolution 42 in it...You can get your PGY1 year approved by the AOA by going through Res. 42.

Well I know people now how are pgy-1 osteopath residents who said they did it (AOA transition year) only because of the 5 state issue, so why would they be doing this if it was only a paperwork issue. Are they misinformed too?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Well I know people now how are pgy-1 osteopath residents who said they did it (AOA transition year) only because of the 5 state issue, so why would they be doing this if it was only a paperwork issue. Are they misinformed too?

Curious...

Are you a Caribbean student?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

DO Class of 2010 = 4,228 students.

Out of those 4,228,
2,045 students opted for the match.
1,444 students match ACGME.
71% match

The number you want is
1,444 students match
4,228 students existed

34% of DO students matched into the ACGME match for the class of 2010.

🙄

You are assuming that all 4228 students even participated in the NRMP.
I'm sure a good chunk did NOT participate.
Also, I'm sure a fair number pre-matched into their respective specialty of choice, since it is allowed.

 

[DrFraud]

Fraud: Um... no. There is a pathway where you can get a waiver. It's called Resolution 42. There are requirements to be met, but few have been denied this waiver. With the waiver via Resolution 42, a DO can practice in those 4 states.

I sorry if i didn't know about the waiver, so I was incorrect if I didn't include this in my prior discussion of this matter. I was going off of what I read and what aquaintances who are DO pgy-1's reported to me regarding their reasoning for doing an AOA transition year.

 

[munchymanRX]

This is not correct (and I am anything of an Osteopathic expert, but I know that some members are dedicated to misleading newbies.)

Currently, a few states require that Osteopathic graduates complete an AOA transition year for licensure. Osteopathic grads who go directly into ACGME residencies will not be eligible to practice in these states. So this issue is much more than just filling out paperwork.

Ok, fine... I'll bite.

You can petition (and in the vast majority of cases, get approved) to have your PGY-1 year of ACGME residency count towards this internship requirement. Look up resolutions 42 and 29: http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-a...ing/Pages/trainee-forms-and-applications.aspx

 

[87DO15]

Well I know people now how are pgy-1 osteopath residents who said they did it (AOA transition year) only because of the 5 state issue, so why would they be doing this if it was only a paperwork issue. Are they misinformed too?

Not necessarily. If they are going into a PGY2 specialty like some ACGME neurology residencies, and their final residency allows them to do an AOA internship instead of ACGME, then they can do that and not have to fill out the paperwork. Others may opt for the ACGME prelim year in IM or Surg, and then do Res. 42.

 

[HockeyDr09]

DO Class of 2010 = 4,228 students.

Out of those 4,228,
2,045 students opted for the match.
1,444 students match ACGME.
71% match

The number you want is
1,444 students match
4,228 students existed

34% of DO students matched into the ACGME match for the class of 2010.

🙄

You are assuming that all 4228 students even participated in the NRMP.
I'm sure a good chunk did NOT participate.
Also, I'm sure a fair number pre-matched into their respective specialty of choice, since it is allowed.

👍

(read the whole thread)

P.S: I love to see the residents stepping in and dropping the hammer.

 

[DrFraud]

🙄

You are assuming that all 4228 students even participated in the NRMP.
I'm sure a good chunk did NOT participate.
Also, I'm sure a fair number pre-matched into their respective specialty of choice, since it is allowed.

I still maintain what I said b-4, for those wanting to go into an ACGME residency....


The 90% or greater chance for graduates from big-4 carib. program (Ross, AUC, Saba, SGU) have of getting an ACGME spot is a heck of a lot better than the 34% for graduates from DO schools.

 

[GTP]

I still maintain what I said b-4, for those wanting to go into an ACGME residency....


The 90% or greater chance for graduates from big-4 carib. program have of getting an ACGME spot is a heck of a lot better than the 34% for graduates from DO schools.

Omg. This is too funny.

 

[Guek]

I still maintain what I said b-4, for those wanting to go into an ACGME residency....


The 90% or greater chance for graduates from big-4 carib. program (Ross, AUC, Saba, SGU) have of getting an ACGME spot is a heck of a lot better than the 34% for graduates from DO schools.

Holy hell. Are you for real? Seriously?

Are you even reading what other people are saying? You're not misinformed, you're just an idiot. Please either stop trolling or actually read what other people are saying.