2012 Board Scores?

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I'm in forensic, and we too worry what the heck is going to happen. After 10 years of FP, you think most of us will will be able to pass a general AP exam?

I was discussing this issue with a few colleagues; assuming the f@cking abp does not provide "easier" questions for recertification and does not score on a curve, the group generally felt that at least half of recert examinees would fail. Who the hell has time to memorize all the esoteric crap besides 4th year residents or fellows?
 
I was discussing this issue with a few colleagues; assuming the f@cking abp does not provide "easier" questions for recertification and does not score on a curve, the group generally felt that at least half of recert examinees would fail. Who the hell has time to memorize all the esoteric crap besides 4th year residents or fellows?

please. enough of the bitching and whining. suck it up and take some of your vacation time to study.

this is just how it is going to be from here on out and we need to deal with it.
 
please. enough of the bitching and whining. suck it up and take some of your vacation time to study.

this is just how it is going to be from here on out and we need to deal with it.

Really? That's your contribution to a post?? Where is the bitching you beeotch?

Seriously. Congrats on passing your boards recently BTW. Here's some advice- don't be a wanker, good groups don't like to work with wankers. So don't ever be one mmmkay?
 
I was discussing this issue with a few colleagues; assuming the f@cking abp does not provide "easier" questions for recertification and does not score on a curve, the group generally felt that at least half of recert examinees would fail. Who the hell has time to memorize all the esoteric crap besides 4th year residents or fellows?

I was just talking to an I.d. doc who had to recertify and it sounded like she was taking the same test as the people who had just finished fellowship.

However I listened to a webinar and the abp explained that there will be modules you can pick from to tailor the exam to more closely resemble your practice. If I remember correctly there will be a general module that everyone has to take and then you can pick 2 specialty modules and they will probably even have two per specialty (I.e. you can pick breast 1 and breast 2 if all you see is breast pathology).

Certainly the abp won't create a test that would uncertify Elaine jaffe because she doesn't remember much about thyroid pathology or other leaders in pathology because they are very specialized.
 
I was just talking to an I.d. doc who had to recertify and it sounded like she was taking the same test as the people who had just finished fellowship.

However I listened to a webinar and the abp explained that there will be modules you can pick from to tailor the exam to more closely resemble your practice. If I remember correctly there will be a general module that everyone has to take and then you can pick 2 specialty modules and they will probably even have two per specialty (I.e. you can pick breast 1 and breast 2 if all you see is breast pathology).

Certainly the abp won't create a test that would uncertify Elaine jaffe because she doesn't remember much about thyroid pathology or other leaders in pathology because they are very specialized.

That's interesting information, thanks! As for the Elaine Jaffe example- correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that she, like every other giant in the field, will be exempt from having to sit in for a written exam because of having been grandfathered into the old system. Perhaps I heard wrong.
 
That's interesting information, thanks! As for the Elaine Jaffe example- correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that she, like every other giant in the field, will be exempt from having to sit in for a written exam because of having been grandfathered into the old system. Perhaps I heard wrong.

Yes everyone that took the exam in 2007 or earlier will be exempt. I am talking about future elaine jaffes.
 
Yes everyone that took the exam in 2007 or earlier will be exempt. I am talking about future elaine jaffes.

The re-cert cohort starts in from 06'
You have to be successful within 10 years- you are eligible to test at year 8- ie the first group will start the recert in 2014.
ABP has posted a rough draft of the format:
<cite>www.abpath.org/MOCpres05032011.ppt

</cite>The re-cert test will be 6 modules of 25 questions = 150 questions: 20% written with 20 image/ virtual/ diagram incorporating questions per module. You will have flexibility in selecting modules tailored toward your practice. You can maintain one or all of your boards- ie if you are AP/CP/ heme what they are describing is you can do just the heme or maintain all of them. They havent said what they are charging or if it requires returning to Tampa. The ASCP has released a training product called the "PRISe" to simulate and practice for the recert. Its decent review and convenient web based tool to get most your SAMs/CMEs.
 
That's interesting information, thanks! As for the Elaine Jaffe example- correct me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is that she, like every other giant in the field, will be exempt from having to sit in for a written exam because of having been grandfathered into the old system. Perhaps I heard wrong.

While the ABP will not require those "grandfathered in" to take the recert exam, that doesn't mean that other entities won't such as employers (i.e. hospitals) and/or payers (i.e. insurance companies, CMS). If you want to have a job and get paid, it may be required in the future for you to maintain recertification regardless of whether or not the ABP requires it. I have a feeling, though, that we'll be seeing quite a few AP/CP certified pathologists only recertifying in one or the other. Not most community pathologists, of course, as they generally do both. I'm thinking of some of my faculty at an academic institution who are AP/CP certified who never do any CP, for example.

On another note, it's not in the best interest of the ABP or the general public for the ABP to cause practicing pathologists to lose their certification, and thus possibly lose their jobs. I have been told by numerous people involved with the ABP (or friends of those involved with the ABP.....path is a small world, after all) that the exam will not be as difficult as the original exam. Someone else has already mentioned that it will not be the same exam (customizable with modules). One faculty member I work with even said she heard it would be that you pay your money and your "letter of competency" or whatever they're calling it (the letter where a colleague says that you're capable) would be sufficient for recert. Lots of speculation, I know, but I really don't think they'll be stingy with the recerts.
 
Interesting that each section is out of an undescribed number of points, and you need 500 to pass. How can the 158 questions or so on the AP practical give you 500 points to pass? The ABP states somewhere in their website that you need to get a minimum of 60% of the questions correct to pass. They also state the test is NOT graded on a curve. If you follow that logic then the total number of points is like 800, and each question is worth like 5 points on the practical, meaning if you miss one question below a passing grade you get a 495, etc.

Not all questions are used. Some are being tested to be used in future exams. They're testing them to make sure that the performance on the question is within defined standards (a certain percentage of people need to get it right).

I hadn't read that you had to get 60% correct to pass. The website does state that there is no longer a curve and that you must pass each section independently. That last part really scared me as I do really well on the images/slides but not so well on the written.
 
Word is the recert exam is not intended to be as rigorous as the original certification exam. It is aimed at pathologists in practice, and supposedly those who are in practice should be able to pass it.

ABPath says: "The examination will be a proctored, closed-book assessment based on knowledge that
a competent practitioner would be expected to possess without access to reference
material."

http://www.abpath.org/MOCBofI.pdf

Some info here: http://www.cap.org/apps/cap.portal?...ation.html&_state=maximized&_pageLabel=cntvwr
 
One has to wonder about the logic of holding people right out of training to a higher standard than people who are seasoned practioners.

It would be like saying a draft pick should be expected to understand how the offense is run better than a ten year veteran.

Shouldn't "The examination will be a proctored, closed-book assessment based on knowledge that a competent practitioner would be expected to possess without access to reference material." be the purpose of the initial certifying exam?

If the abp states the recert exam will be easier, are they admitting that they are testing and failing people over material that a "competent practioner" doesn't need to know?

Word is the recert exam is not intended to be as rigorous as the original certification exam. It is aimed at pathologists in practice, and supposedly those who are in practice should be able to pass it.

ABPath says: "The examination will be a proctored, closed-book assessment based on knowledge that
a competent practitioner would be expected to possess without access to reference
material."

http://www.abpath.org/MOCBofI.pdf

Some info here: http://www.cap.org/apps/cap.portal?...ation.html&_state=maximized&_pageLabel=cntvwr
 
One has to wonder about the logic of holding people right out of training to a higher standard than people who are seasoned practioners.

It would be like saying a draft pick should be expected to understand how the offense is run better than a ten year veteran.

Shouldn't "The examination will be a proctored, closed-book assessment based on knowledge that a competent practitioner would be expected to possess without access to reference material." be the purpose of the initial certifying exam?

If the abp states the recert exam will be easier, are they admitting that they are testing and failing people over material that a "competent practioner" doesn't need to know?

I absolutely agree, I too have voiced this in a couple of prior posts. 👍
 
This is all well and good for general practice pathologists, but what about subspecialists, such as pure hemepathers, blood bankers, forensics, pure dermpath, etc? I apologize if this point was stated earlier, but if you're a subspecialist, can you maintain that certification without maintaining the general? Ie, dermpath certified while dropping AP or transfusion med dropping CP?

Word is the recert exam is not intended to be as rigorous as the original certification exam. It is aimed at pathologists in practice, and supposedly those who are in practice should be able to pass it.

ABPath says: "The examination will be a proctored, closed-book assessment based on knowledge that
a competent practitioner would be expected to possess without access to reference
material."

http://www.abpath.org/MOCBofI.pdf

Some info here: http://www.cap.org/apps/cap.portal?...ation.html&_state=maximized&_pageLabel=cntvwr
 
i believe you must keep a primary certificate.

That's what I'd been assuming as well, and I think that's going to be a major issue for some of the groups I listed. Is someone working for the Red Cross as a blood bank director going to keep up those other CP skills? What about someone working in a dermpath lab, only looking at skin? I know other FPs are worried as well, as we're one of the most isolated groups from diagnostic surg path and cyto.
 
That's what I'd been assuming as well, and I think that's going to be a major issue for some of the groups I listed. Is someone working for the Red Cross as a blood bank director going to keep up those other CP skills? What about someone working in a dermpath lab, only looking at skin? I know other FPs are worried as well, as we're one of the most isolated groups from diagnostic surg path and cyto.

This is just my intuition, but i think they are going to keep the "core" ap and cp recert exams VERY easy such that very few people would fail. if you choose to add on some areas of your practice expertise, they may be more challenging but that will ,after all, be the area of your expertise and choosing. i think there will probably be some board recert "prep" courses or expensive cme that will basically spoon feed the core of the exam.
the ABP cannot have a whole *hit-load of seasoned pathologists falling off the radar screen without causing real chaos.
 
Actually, I'm pretty certain I've seen that one can maintain just their subspecialty board and drop their primary, although that technically limits your practice to that subspecialty -- something with very vague borders. It remains to be seen what it will really mean in FP, as certain cases, particularly civil/consult cases but even some criminal ones, may depend more heavily on tumor or other microscopic evaluations. If it's during the course of one's regular job it -shouldn't- be an issue, but that which is medically acceptable and that which a lawyer, judge, or jury feels warm and fuzzy about can be quite different.

That aside, it's certainly something time-limited FP's are thinking about, which is why I'm pretty sure I've heard we would be able to drop AP and continue with FP only. However, I don't have the source for that information right at hand.
 
Well, but board certification or its absence does not "technically limit" practice. If you're saying it would leave you more legally exposed without it, then yes. Lots of people sign out things that they're not board certified in, like derm, cyto, and heme for example.
 
Well, but board certification or its absence does not "technically limit" practice. If you're saying it would leave you more legally exposed without it, then yes. Lots of people sign out things that they're not board certified in, like derm, cyto, and heme for example.

I would say it does. Being board certified is required by most hospitals. But you could still go work for a urologist or a reference lab.
 
I would say it does. Being board certified is required by most hospitals. But you could still go work for a urologist or a reference lab.

The statement was that dropping all but your subspecialty board limits you to that subspecialty. For example, a AP/CP/hemepath boarded person who has been signing out pap smears, skin biopsies and general surg path for 10 years decides to keep only the hemepath, the hospital would say "no more pap smears for you?" I have a hard time seeing that. There are a few attendings at my academic hospital who have been signing out for 2 years plus without board certification.
 
The statement was that dropping all but your subspecialty board limits you to that subspecialty. For example, a AP/CP/hemepath boarded person who has been signing out pap smears, skin biopsies and general surg path for 10 years decides to keep only the hemepath, the hospital would say "no more pap smears for you?" I have a hard time seeing that. There are a few attendings at my academic hospital who have been signing out for 2 years plus without board certification.

I thought most hospitals gave you a reasonable amount of time to pass your boards during your first job (say 2-3 years). Your junior attendings may still be in that window of time. You have 5 years of eligibilty after residency, right? Or is it less? And you can take your exams as many times as you like during that time?
 
Nobody really knows what will happen in practice, as it simply hasn't been forced yet. But the time is drawing nearer. Personally, I wouldn't want to be the hemepath or neuropath or whatever who drops AP and has to face the issue in a mixed general/specialty signout group, as they would not be board certified to sign out those general/non-specialty cases. Sure, they could do so like any non-boarded practitioner, but by the way we got a few calls from some AP+spec applicants for your job this week.

It may be that in practice no-one will care if you the non-APCP hemepath-only sign out a glioblastoma. But my understanding is that the ABP intends those with spec only certificates be limited to that spec -- as far as their actual authority goes, anyway. Paper comparisons of folks being all the rage, along with competition for specimens, competition for jobs, fear of litigation, insurance (not just the paying kind, but professional liability too), etc., I would want to be rather sure about matters before doing something rash like dropping a primary. That said, I doubt most AP+spec folks will intentionally drop AP, as most probably practice some general surg path anyway and it's probably not much skin off their backs to maintain it as compared to those without a spec. Some may drop CP, perhaps. And individuals in certain niche groups might drop AP, such as FP's. But it's -probably- a lot of talk about something that will only affect a small proportion of people, at least if the exam is as reasonable as is claimed..
 
It seems to me that board certification is being used not as ABP intends, at least officially. From the ABP booklet of information:

"The ABP does NOT seek special privileges for its diplomates, nor does it:
1. Confer an academic degree
2. Confer a legal qualification or license to practice medicine
3. Define hospital privileges
4. Define the scope of specialty practice
5. Delineate who may or may not engage in the practice of pathology"

It appears that all but the first are either happening or likely to happen soon.

Then in the section on subspecialty certification:

"Pathologists with subspecialty certification may choose to limit their activities entirely or in part to a specific area of competence or they may place special emphasis on it in their practices. The achievement of subspecialty certification does not reflect on the ability of other pathologists to practice in that area."
 
It will be interesting to see what happens during the first year or two of formal recertification (which includes the exam). I suspect the ABP will not want to suddenly remove board certification from a significant percentage of pathologists. Up to 20% fail the AP/CP boards, those who are certified will certainly fail to some degree if the recert exam is anywhere near as difficult as the cert exam. I suspect the ABP does not want to deal with the headache of denying recertification to a significant percentage of practicing pathologists.
 
How can one possibly justify different standards for initial certification vs recertification?

Much of the problem is that the exam has broad coverage that does not correspond to practice patterns. It seems to me that ABP should consider a modular approach to certification that corresponds to ones scope of practice. I am a clinical chemist in an academic center. Why do I need to prove my competence in hemepath, micro and BB when I will NEVER sign out a case in those areas. If, sometime in the future, I need to expand my scope of practice I should be required to certify at that time.

It will be interesting to see what happens during the first year or two of formal recertification (which includes the exam). I suspect the ABP will not want to suddenly remove board certification from a significant percentage of pathologists. Up to 20% fail the AP/CP boards, those who are certified will certainly fail to some degree if the recert exam is anywhere near as difficult as the cert exam. I suspect the ABP does not want to deal with the headache of denying recertification to a significant percentage of practicing pathologists.
 
How can one possibly justify different standards for initial certification vs recertification?

Much of the problem is that the exam has broad coverage that does not correspond to practice patterns. It seems to me that ABP should consider a modular approach to certification that corresponds to ones scope of practice. I am a clinical chemist in an academic center. Why do I need to prove my competence in hemepath, micro and BB when I will NEVER sign out a case in those areas. If, sometime in the future, I need to expand my scope of practice I should be required to certify at that time.

I think that is what they are planning.

There will be a general portion that applies to everyone but you should be able to request only chem modules after that. At least that is what I took away from Betsy Bennet's webinar about a year ago.
 
RE: different standards for initial vs re-certification

Have to remember that board exams don't test competency or ability to practice. They test the ability to do what it takes to pass the exam -- which may or may not correlate with the ability to perform adequately in practice, though it's generally accepted/assumed that it does. Because of that acceptance/assumption, certification is considered better than no certification, and re-certification is considered better than non-time-limited. Sure, recertification might filter out the old and demented who really shouldn't be practicing anymore but do because no-one has the balls, or perhaps the authority, to stop them otherwise -- but as pointed out, one doesn't absolutely have to be boarded to work, though practically speaking one generally does.

It's not in the best interests of the certifying body for re-certification to cull out huge numbers of people; if the fail rate is too high, those folks will just keep working anyway, arguably diluting the value of certification unless salaries adjust for the difference. But if the pass rate is 100% then questions arise about the validity of re-certification (because the masses -assume- it means something, not because it -does- mean something) and there will be a demand to make it more difficult. This is why, IMO, many exams historically had a set pass/fail rate -- a certain number of folks have to fail in order for the exam to appear appropriately difficult and meaningful, and equally a certain number have to pass in order for the certification to be prevalent enough to have value. In modern days the legal and ethical fairness, as well as academic appropriateness, of that I think has been rightly called into question, so actual pass/fail score cutoffs (instead of rates) have become more the rage.

Dunno. I can see a lot of different possible outcomes of this in 20 years. It may be that eventually so many folks drop AP/CP but continue to work broadly in those fields that the primary certification itself (and possibly ABP altogether) becomes meaningless and is replaced by something else. Or, perhaps not.
 
All set to go back in October - dates were announced this morning.
 
Heme results (and presumably all sub-specialty results) are up.
 
Re-took the AP exam yesterday. Same ridiculous test, more than 50% of the questions were the same as the first time I took it. Thank God I'm neurotic and studied the topics related to all the esoteric questions I didn't know last time. They still didn't have the virtual slides working so they just cut our time instead and told us to skip those questions. What a clever work around, even after 4 months (dripping sarcasm). One of my work booklets was obviously recycled; it had the previous taker's name and number whited out. I was comforted by chatting by some of the other test-takers; anxiety is clearly a common thread. I am so disappointed in our profession, that this is the way we "certify" our pathologists. I can only hope that with the impending MOC requirements, in addition to the "remembrances" brouhaha they will be forced to improve the test.
 
Re-took the AP exam yesterday. Same ridiculous test, more than 50% of the questions were the same as the first time I took it. Thank God I'm neurotic and studied the topics related to all the esoteric questions I didn't know last time. They still didn't have the virtual slides working so they just cut our time instead and told us to skip those questions. What a clever work around, even after 4 months (dripping sarcasm). One of my work booklets was obviously recycled; it had the previous taker's name and number whited out. I was comforted by chatting by some of the other test-takers; anxiety is clearly a common thread. I am so disappointed in our profession, that this is the way we "certify" our pathologists. I can only hope that with the impending MOC requirements, in addition to the "remembrances" brouhaha they will be forced to improve the test.

We need some new leadership to cut the number of residency programs. Protect our field like dermatology. You will be recruited for a job after residency with NO fellowship. Employers will be posting high salaries just to entice you to come to their practice. You don't have to worry about getting a job through "word of mouth". There will be numerous jobs posted looking for residency graduates.

My friend told me how much his MOHS friend makes a MONTH. Almost as much as some pathologists make a year. Why is that? What is the difference between a pathologist and a derm who does MOHS? This friend has told me pathology as a field is "deteriorating". Specimens are a commodity. I dont know any other field that has been commoditized. If so, let me know.

The leaders in derm protect their field quite well and the field has been so competitive only taking in the best applicants. What is the difference between derm and every other field in medicine?
 
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Re-took the AP exam yesterday. Same ridiculous test, more than 50% of the questions were the same as the first time I took it. Thank God I'm neurotic and studied the topics related to all the esoteric questions I didn't know last time. They still didn't have the virtual slides working so they just cut our time instead and told us to skip those questions. What a clever work around, even after 4 months (dripping sarcasm). One of my work booklets was obviously recycled; it had the previous taker's name and number whited out. I was comforted by chatting by some of the other test-takers; anxiety is clearly a common thread. I am so disappointed in our profession, that this is the way we "certify" our pathologists. I can only hope that with the impending MOC requirements, in addition to the "remembrances" brouhaha they will be forced to improve the test.

I wish you the best 👍:xf:🙂
 
Fall exam scores are in - I passed :laugh:. I still hold that this is the worst test ever written. At least I'm on the other side!! I think the key the second time around was being more focused on the "unusual" while studying and very basic, perhaps overlooked questions - like the most common malignant and benign tumors in each organ system. Turns out Robbins is better than Sternberg for boards.
 
Fall exam scores are in - I passed :laugh:. I still hold that this is the worst test ever written. At least I'm on the other side!! I think the key the second time around was being more focused on the "unusual" while studying and very basic, perhaps overlooked questions - like the most common malignant and benign tumors in each organ system. Turns out Robbins is better than Sternberg for boards.

Totally Agree, I passed as well and did exactly the same thing! Second time around this was key for me too!

Congrats to you!
 
fall exam scores are in - i passed :laugh:. I still hold that this is the worst test ever written. At least i'm on the other side!! I think the key the second time around was being more focused on the "unusual" while studying and very basic, perhaps overlooked questions - like the most common malignant and benign tumors in each organ system. Turns out robbins is better than sternberg for boards.

congrats!!!
 
Has anyone received their subspecialty certificates (the physical document, via snail mail) yet from the 2012 cycle? My confidence that the ABP can properly mail to a Canadian address is on the low side.
 
Congrats to you as well! So awesome to have this behind me.
 
Fall exam scores are in - I passed :laugh:. I still hold that this is the worst test ever written. At least I'm on the other side!! I think the key the second time around was being more focused on the "unusual" while studying and very basic, perhaps overlooked questions - like the most common malignant and benign tumors in each organ system. Turns out Robbins is better than Sternberg for boards.

congratulations. i'm glad you passed.

btw...you used sternberg and not lefkowitch?! eek
 
Has anyone received their subspecialty certificates (the physical document, via snail mail) yet from the 2012 cycle? My confidence that the ABP can properly mail to a Canadian address is on the low side.

they recently sent the general board certificates in october. i do not foresee subspecialty certs to be mailed until at least december or later.
 
I was kidding about Sternberg; I used Lefkowitch the first time and I don't think it is the Bible it's touted to be. The second time I read Weidner's "Modern Pathology" and memorized all the "most common" whatevers in Robbins. I did Lefkowitch (again) later in the day. For Cytology, I read Cibas. I took an old copy of Sternberg and cut out all the relevant color images for flash cards. Two weeks before, I took the Osler live lecture course and did slides until I was blue in the face. Getting used to the crappy microscopes was key, Osler has identical scopes to the exam.
 
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I was kidding about Sternberg; I used Lefkowitch the first time and I don't think it is the Bible it's touted to be. The second time I read Weidner's "Modern Pathology" and memorized all the "most common" whatevers in Robbins. I did Lefkowitch (again) later in the day. For Cytology, I read Cibas. I took an old copy of Sternberg and cut out all the relevant color images for flash cards. Two weeks before, I took the Osler live lecture course and did slides until I was blue in the face. Getting used to the crappy microscopes was key, Osler has identical scopes to the exam.

wow! no wonder you passed. 🙂

now enjoy the weekend!
 
Well, it was definitely a step up from the first time. I suppose it was a very, very expensive practice test.
 
No kidding- you went all in.

Did you feel like you passed coming out of the test after all that preparation? I know most people come out of it feeling like they got hit by a truck.
 
I would also agree with your assessment of Lefkowitch, Pathgrrl. The question type was not really similar to the actual test, the question difficulty was not really like the actual test, and the images are terrible. The only thing it was actually good for was scaring the crap out of you to study all the entities in the book, IMHO.
 
During the exam, I felt like I nailed the first two parts (slides and practical). The fact that the slides were 100% the same helped. They rearranged the day so that both practicals were in the morning, so we had lunch at like 10:30. The third part (written)...I wasn't sure. I changed a lot of answers at the end, and I was the last one out of the room. But that was the part that I passed the first time.
 
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