2013 MSUCOM OOS vs. PCOM

[FutureDOc1234]

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I was accepted to both MSUCOM and PCOM for 2013. I'm an out of state student and considering a specialty in either Internal Med, Ob/Gyn or Peds. Any insight or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

 

[JeetKuneDo]

PCOM. Just as good a school, lots of residencies in different specialties associated with school, in philly, much, much lower tuition.

 

[HooliganSnail]

I'm an MSUCOM student and I love the school. It has great support system, great teachers, and our statewide campus system gives you a lot of chances to audition for residency slots. There are a lot of AOA residencies in MI and the ACGME programs are usually very DO friendly. You would not be making a mistake going to MSU.
That being said, the OOS tuition is ridiculous. I know that there are scholarships available for OOS'ers to make up the difference, but its a lot of money. PCOM is a great school. Philly is a gorgious city, Detroit is a crap hole.
In the end, you have a good problem. Hey you got accepted to medical school!!!! Congrats man.

 

[museic]

Oranges to oranges. Both schools are in the tier 1 of DO schools and both will give you the chance to where you wanna go. The difference? you won't have to wait more then 5 years after residency to buy a ferrari by going to PCOM. OOS MSUCOM tuition is ridiculous and embarrassing if you ask me.

 

[WDeagle]

I was accepted to both MSUCOM and PCOM for 2013. I'm an out of state student and considering a specialty in either Internal Med, Ob/Gyn or Peds. Any insight or advice would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

PCOM is a much better school. PCOM is much cheaper for you. Philly is a much nicer city than Detroit which is where you will likely end up for 3rd year. However, Lansing wouldn't be a bad place to be. Michigan as a whole sucks. Philly as a city probably has more residency opportunities although Detroit is pretty good too. Pretty easy choice.

 

[user3]

.

 

[museic]

Comprehensive, land-grant, brand-name, nationally recognized public university of over 45,000 students vs. freestanding health science institution few have heard of...If not for cost, MSU>>>>PCOM. IMHO MSU/OU/UMDNJ/OSU/UNT are in a tier above PCOM/DMU/KCOM/CCOM/KCUMB.

Fortunately, everyone has an honest opinion and they usually stink.

 

[user3]

Fortunately, everyone has an honest opinion and they usually stink.

🙄

 

[as1212559]

Fortunately, everyone has an honest opinion and they usually stink.

Yeah I would bunch PCOM with the state schools since they have associated residency programs. Dunno about whether CCOM/KCOM/DMU do. Don't think KCUMB does.

 

[GopherMD]

Yeah I would bunch PCOM with the state schools since they have associated residency programs. Dunno about whether CCOM/KCOM/DMU do. Don't think KCUMB does.

Not to sidetrack the convo but,

CCOM has a lot of residency programs and fellowships

http://www.midwestern.edu/course-ca...pathic-postdoctoral-training-institution.html

 

[as1212559]

Nice. I wondered if they did but no way was I going to go searching at that hour haha. Back on track now:

OP, you have 2 strong schools to choose from. The tangibles to consider at MSU's obscene tuition. Do they offer any sort of scholarship to out of staters to help ease that bite? The intangibles are where you would rather be. You can't really go wrong.

 

[FutureDOc1234]

Thanks for all of the helpful responses! I don't believe that MSU offers any significant scholarships to OOS students that would ease the enormous debt. That being said, I know that MSU is ranked higher than PCOM for Primary Care, and they receive more NIH funding. Other than that I'm wondering if the difference in caliber between the schools is enough to make a difference in the long run. I would much rather live in an urban city, but don't want to sacrifice any part of my education for that.

Any 3rd or 4th year students have any good information about the clinical rotation experiences at MSUCOM or PCOM?

Thanks again!!

 

[p1acebo]

I'm a 3rd year at MSU and first off I would like to say there are scholarships available for OOS students (25k a year, which ya is pretty significant). Secondly I am rotating at the Detroit Medical Center, which is a great place to do your clerkship is you want to be exposed to a great deal of pathology and have a hands on experience. In addition, metro Detroit is not a bad place to live, most people live in the suburbs which are nice and downtown/midtown Detroit is a lot of fun. However, I would say it comes down to going with your gut. Where you feel most comfortable is where you are going to have the most success.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Don't read too much into these DO school "rank" lists people endorse on SDN. Most of them are baseless and derived from nothing else than personal opinions. If you hear something enough there's a good chance it will continue to be said, regardless of its validity.

Go where you think you will do best. If that's MSU, despite the astronomically ridiculous OOS tuition, then so be it. But for me, nothing can justify spending THAT much in tuition simply because I am OOS.

Are you interested in research? I was looking into the MSU-COM DO/PhD program to help with the cost. PCOM doesn't have nearly the same diversity of PhD options as MSU.

 

[cliquesh]

Pcom rotation sites are pretty good and you rotate with many of the MD kids in the area.
Abington hospital - rotate with Drexel students
Albert einstein -rotate with Jefferson students
Lankaneu - rotate with Jefferson students
Leigh high valley - rotate with Drexel students
St. Luke's - rotate with temple students
Geisinger - rotate with temple students
Christiana - rotate with Jefferson students.

Pcom does have some bad sites, though, and it's kind of luck if you get a "good" site or a "bad one

 

[bigyihoroi]

Thanks for all of the helpful responses! I don't believe that MSU offers any significant scholarships to OOS students that would ease the enormous debt. That being said, I know that MSU is ranked higher than PCOM for Primary Care, and they receive more NIH funding. Other than that I'm wondering if the difference in caliber between the schools is enough to make a difference in the long run. I would much rather live in an urban city, but don't want to sacrifice any part of my education for that.

Any 3rd or 4th year students have any good information about the clinical rotation experiences at MSUCOM or PCOM?

Thanks again!!

I am a 4th year PCOM student and I worked with quite a bit of MSU students during my audition rotations in Michigan. Besides the difference in tuition, you will get a good education with either PCOM or MSU. However, during 3rd and 4th year, PCOM uses a distributive model where students go to a variety of different community/teaching hospitals where you have to learn how to adapt quickly moving from one hospital to the next. The good is that you get to see how different hospitals work and have the opportunity to try different EMR. The bad is that you pretty much have to spend the first week of your one month rotation getting to know everything about the hospital. Based on what I heard from MSU students, they do all their core rotations at one hospital (e.g. McLaren - MSU students can correct me if i were wrong on this part). The good is that you will be familiar with all the faces for the year and don't need to spend the first week of each month figuring out where everything is and how everything works. The bad is that you stick with one hospital so your experience is limited to that one hospital system.

Another thing you should consider when choosing between PCOM and MSU is where you wanna do your residency or possibly practice in the future. PCOM has a very good reputation in the east coast. When i was rotating in michigan, MSU also has a very good reputation in the region. I think that should play a role in your decision making process. Good Luck and I hope these will help a little with regard to your decision.

Btw, don't worry about the ranking thing for primary care, that thing doesn't really play a role when u apply to residency.

 

[WDeagle]

Comprehensive, land-grant, brand-name, nationally recognized public university of over 45,000 students vs. freestanding health science institution few have heard of...If not for cost, MSU>>>>PCOM. IMHO MSU/OU/UMDNJ/OSU/UNT are in a tier above PCOM/DMU/KCOM/CCOM/KCUMB.

No dude. I'm a resident at one of MSU's main teaching hospitals. The PCOM and KCUMB students are several steps above the MSU kids. THE DMU and KCOM kids are great too in general. The overall difference in knowledge base and interpersonal skills are pretty obvious. The MSU students seem generally unprepared for rotations. If you want name recognition than maybe MSU>PCOM.

The only reason is MSU is regarded so highly is because they have a billion affiliated residency programs. However, in my n=1 experience the residents in the most competitive MSU residencies come from a variety of schools including MSU.

EDIT: also PCOM's rotation sites are better. MSU has a few big hospitals like Sinai-Grace, Ingham, and Genesys but the chance of you getting sent out to some tiny community hospital is also a possibility. Seems like they have too many students for rotation spots. I have been on rotations where their was more students than patients on service. I never saw anything like that at PCOM. Places like Einstein and Geisenger are fantastic places to train for students and residents.

 

[Textbookversion]

I'd find out what the financial aid office can offer, I doubt people actually pay sticker price for OOS tuition for MSU because that number is just insane.

 

[FutureDOc1234]

Thank you all for your insightful responses. I've made my decision and I'm going to PCOM. Seemed like the best fit for me!! Thanks again!!

 

[HooliganSnail]

They have better interpersonal skills? Really? Sampling Bias alert.

MSU is regarded so highly because its a good school. Careful not to get caught up in the whole "bigger is better" mantra. A small community hospital where you get to know the people is an excellent learning environment. I know because I am in one of those MSU hospitals.

MSU has whatever you want as a student. We have huge specialty centers, level one trauma centers, small community hospitals, great primary care ambulatory sites, and an incredible network of supportive (sans a certain resident) physicians, preceptors, and administrators. Its an MSUCOM love-fest in Michigan man!

 

[Trogghunter]

No dude. I'm a resident at one of MSU's main teaching hospitals. The PCOM and KCUMB students are several steps above the MSU kids. THE DMU and KCOM kids are great too in general. The overall difference in knowledge base and interpersonal skills are pretty obvious. The MSU students seem generally unprepared for rotations. If you want name recognition than maybe MSU>PCOM.

The only reason is MSU is regarded so highly is because they have a billion affiliated residency programs. However, in my n=1 experience the residents in the most competitive MSU residencies come from a variety of schools including MSU.

EDIT: also PCOM's rotation sites are better. MSU has a few big hospitals like Sinai-Grace, Ingham, and Genesys but the chance of you getting sent out to some tiny community hospital is also a possibility. Seems like they have too many students for rotation spots. I have been on rotations where their was more students than patients on service. I never saw anything like that at PCOM. Places like Einstein and Geisenger are fantastic places to train for students and residents.

If you're at a teaching hospital for msu then the msu students are probably 3rd year base students and the others are 4th year/on auditions from other schools. I've had several MD and DO students audition at my hospital and they didn't know things like what glucophage is and couldn't do simple tasks like admits and discharges

 

[user3]

They have better interpersonal skills? Really? Sampling Bias alert.

MSU is regarded so highly because its a good school. Careful not to get caught up in the whole "bigger is better" mantra. A small community hospital where you get to know the people is an excellent learning environment. I know because I am in one of those MSU hospitals.

MSU has whatever you want as a student. We have huge specialty centers, level one trauma centers, small community hospitals, great primary care ambulatory sites, and an incredible network of supportive (sans a certain resident) physicians, preceptors, and administrators. Its an MSUCOM love-fest in Michigan man!

+1

If only their OOS tuition wasn't so high...

 

[dozitgetchahi]

This is close to being a no-brainer. MSU and PCOM are both great DO schools, but in your case you save a bundle on tuition by going to PCOM and you give up little (if anything) in the process. Bear in mind that the amount of debt you accumulate during your education really matters in the long run. The differences between these schools aren't going to make a significant enough impact on your career to warrant running up the type of debt that MSU OOSers charge up.

 

[Bacchus]

Aye. PCOM will place you in one of those programs as long as you're competitive. Our OPTI is pretty extensive and a lot of the local (tristate) PDs take us. Save money, go to PCOM.

 

[rc4ch]

Go to PCOM with Bacchus and I.

 

[willen101383]

I thought M1/M2 were a mess at PCOM, and the administration is quite ridiculous. You 2013ers had a lot less flux in your curriculum than we did, and CERTAINLY less than the 2015/2016 class. Things were a mess for those guys.

That being said, my rotation sites in general this year have been kick ass. Ive been pretty damn impressed with my 3rd year, and have seen some great pathology.

 

[Trogghunter]

Answer me this though, does pcom have D1 sports, tailgates, heated sidewalks, free membership to 3 gyms/3 pools, access to 3 libraries, and the largest non-military cafeteria in the nation? I think not.

 

[Bacchus]

Answer me this though, does pcom have D1 sports, tailgates, heated sidewalks, free membership to 3 gyms/3 pools, access to 3 libraries, and the largest non-military cafeteria in the nation? I think not.

At what cost?

 

[group_theory]

Answer me this though, does pcom have D1 sports, tailgates, heated sidewalks, free membership to 3 gyms/3 pools, access to 3 libraries, and the largest non-military cafeteria in the nation? I think not.

At what cost?

Source: Communiqué (Michigan State College of Osteopathic Medicine Journal)
Fall 2012, Volume 39, No 3.

"Of our 2011 graduates, only 13 were debt-free. The 171 paying in-state tuition had average debt loads of $192,555; the nine paying nonresident tuition owed an average debt load of $269,010." -William D. Strampel, D.O., Dean

(USNews list the average indebtedness of 2010 graduates of MSUCOM at $187,317)

It's hard to find the official indebtedness for PCOM graduates, but some sources list it as $188,162 (The Princeton Review's The Best 168 Medical Schools)

So is $80,848 (plus at least 6.8% interest, compounded at graduation) worth it? PCOM has a decent gym on campus (the Sixers train there), and there are no heated sidewalks (it doesn't snow as much or get as cold as Michigan). Plus Philly is a fun city, but also only a few hours away from NYC, Boston, and Washington (accessible via car, bus, train, or plane). You can finish class, take the train to NY Penn Station, and see a game at Madison Square Garden Friday night (the Sixers used to offer discounted tickets to faculty/staff/students when they have excess, not sure if they still do that). Plus you don't have to travel (save on airfare, taxi, hotel) for COMLEX 2-PE. PCOM has a small cafeteria, so MSUCOM has that going for them (although dinner friday night in Philly, DC or NY is much better than any collegiate cafeteria, but that's just my opinion)

 

[camierz]

Never knew we had a large cafeteria or heated sidewalks. Guess these luxuries aren't close to fee hall.

 

[rc4ch]

Answer me this though, does pcom have D1 sports, tailgates, heated sidewalks, free membership to 3 gyms/3 pools, access to 3 libraries, and the largest non-military cafeteria in the nation? I think not.

Lol.

 

[Dissected]

No dude. I'm a resident at one of MSU's main teaching hospitals. The PCOM and KCUMB students are several steps above the MSU kids. THE DMU and KCOM kids are great too in general. The overall difference in knowledge base and interpersonal skills are pretty obvious. The MSU students seem generally unprepared for rotations.

Unfortunately I have to agree with this. I'm not sure what the deal was, and it's not across the board..but woah. Big difference during audition season. KCUMB, KCOM and DMU students were very sharp.

Didn't mean to form a tangent, carry on.

 

[Trogghunter]

Yea I was trying to get laughs. I however am graduating soon, in my early 20s with no kids or significant other, so a difference of 80k plus interest wouldnt matter, especially given that I don't pay full tuition. It all depends on what you're looking for and your current situation. Being around people my age (undergrads) for preclerkship, having access to the research powerhouse that is the MSU human bio and phys department, and being able to train directly under the guidance of my professors is what helped make my decision. Most importantly, you can't put a price on being 500 miles away from the dirty Jerz....that whole state sucks. It's founders even shaped it like an armpit to warn travelers. It sucks your soul out as you drive down the turnpike. I had a custom made GPS that would remove that state from the map software and have me drive around. Ive payed 200 extra for a flight so that I wouldn't have to be in the Newark terminal for a connection. I'd rather be strapped as little spoon to a sweaty fat eagles fan eating cheese steaks from pats in LaGuardia on a July day with no a/c and a 4hr delay than be in NJ.

 

[Dmr6186]

Yea I was trying to get laughs. I however am graduating soon, in my early 20s with no kids or significant other, so a difference of 80k plus interest wouldnt matter, especially given that I don't pay full tuition. It all depends on what you're looking for and your current situation. Being around people my age (undergrads) for preclerkship, having access to the research powerhouse that is the MSU human bio and phys department, and being able to train directly under the guidance of my professors is what helped make my decision. Most importantly, you can't put a price on being 500 miles away from the dirty Jerz....that whole state sucks. It's founders even shaped it like an armpit to warn travelers. It sucks your soul out as you drive down the turnpike. I had a custom made GPS that would remove that state from the map software and have me drive around. Ive payed 200 extra for a flight so that I wouldn't have to be in the Newark terminal for a connection. I'd rather be strapped as little spoon to a sweaty fat eagles fan eating cheese steaks from pats in LaGuardia on a July day with no a/c and a 4hr delay than be in NJ.

Explains a lot.

 

[willen101383]

Explains a lot.

YUP. Thats why I cant really visit this site anymore. Just as bad as misc and reddit.

 

[group_theory]

Yea I was trying to get laughs. I however am graduating soon, in my early 20s with no kids or significant other, so a difference of 80k plus interest wouldnt matter, especially given that I don't pay full tuition. It all depends on what you're looking for and your current situation. Being around people my age (undergrads) for preclerkship, having access to the research powerhouse that is the MSU human bio and phys department, and being able to train directly under the guidance of my professors is what helped make my decision. Most importantly, you can't put a price on being 500 miles away from the dirty Jerz....that whole state sucks. It's founders even shaped it like an armpit to warn travelers. It sucks your soul out as you drive down the turnpike. I had a custom made GPS that would remove that state from the map software and have me drive around. Ive payed 200 extra for a flight so that I wouldn't have to be in the Newark terminal for a connection. I'd rather be strapped as little spoon to a sweaty fat eagles fan eating cheese steaks from pats in LaGuardia on a July day with no a/c and a 4hr delay than be in NJ.

MSUCOM is a good school. But students should be more financially savy and know the degree of debt that they are getting into. The difference between average student debt of PCOM and the average student debt of an OOS MSUCOM student is that of a new Porsche Panamera V8 model (or even a Porsche 911 model), and is before taking into account interest. If you do, then

PCOM - $188,162 (average debt) at 6.8% over 10 years is $259,845.18
MSUCOM OOS - $269,010 (average debt of OOS student) at 6.8% over 10 years is $371,492.91

That's a $111,647.91 difference in 10 years (monthly payment of $2,165.37 vs $3,095.70)

If you expand it over 20 years instead of 10 years, then it is $344,716.92 versus $492,830.23, close to $150k difference

Both are great schools and well respected in the medical community. Both will give you opportunities to become the type of doctors that you want to be. There may be personal reasons to want to go to one school above another, but you must consider the financial implications of any decision.

*who knows whether the PSLF program will still be available, or if there will be income limit. Even if it is still available, and no income limit set by congress, that is one BIG tax bill for the forgiven loan that you're expected to pay at once.

 

[user3]

MSUCOM is a good school. But students should be more financially savy and know the degree of debt that they are getting into. The difference between average student debt of PCOM and the average student debt of an OOS MSUCOM student is that of a new Porsche Panamera V8 model (or even a Porsche 911 model), and is before taking into account interest. If you do, then

PCOM - $188,162 (average debt) at 6.8% over 10 years is $259,845.18
MSUCOM OOS - $269,010 (average debt of OOS student) at 6.8% over 10 years is $371,492.91

That's a $111,647.91 difference in 10 years (monthly payment of $2,165.37 vs $3,095.70)

If you expand it over 20 years instead of 10 years, then it is $344,716.92 versus $492,830.23, close to $150k difference

Both are great schools and well respected in the medical community. Both will give you opportunities to become the type of doctors that you want to be. There may be personal reasons to want to go to one school above another, but you must consider the financial implications of any decision.

*who knows whether the PSLF program will still be available, or if there will be income limit. Even if it is still available, and no income limit set by congress, that is one BIG tax bill for the forgiven loan that you're expected to pay at once.

PSLF-forgiven loans are tax exempt, while the 20 year IBR forgiveness is not. And I think there is (in essence) an income limit for these programs-- you do not qualify for IBR if your regular 10 year repayment amounts are less than the IBR-calculated amounts. Not sure about PSLF.

 

[group_theory]

PSLF-forgiven loans are tax exempt, while the 20 year IBR forgiveness is not. And I think there is (in essence) an income limit for these programs-- you do not qualify for IBR if your regular 10 year repayment amounts are less than the IBR-calculated amounts. Not sure about PSLF.

You are right - PSLF is tax exempt thanks to a 2008 IRS ruling.

IBR tax forgiveness occurs after 25 years, and the amount forgiven is treated as taxable income.

Would probably qualify for IBR as a resident and fellow, but once you become an attending, unless your loan is astronomically huge, or your income is usually small for an attending physician, you probably no longer qualify for IBR