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RxP aside, how do you psychiatry students feel about the big push for psychologists to get some level of medical training (MS program etc..). :confused:
 

mosche

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I am probably being non-PC, but I have NO problem with psychologists receiving medical training. I also have no objection to psychologists, who have the proper/adequate medical training, prescribing medications.

Okay, flame on.... But, please don't turn this into an Us vs. Them thread -- they're so overdone.
 

Anasazi23

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At that point, isn't it just easier to go to medical school and take some weekend courses in psychological testing?

You theoretically can't be a master of both unless attending both psychology grad school and medical school; I'd rather err on the side of knowing too much medicine, and not enough psych testing.

In medicine, a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.
 

mosche

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Anasazi23 said:
At that point, isn't it just easier to go to medical school and take some weekend courses in psychological testing?

You theoretically can't be a master of both unless attending both psychology grad school and medical school; I'd rather err on the side of knowing too much medicine, and not enough psych testing.

In medicine, a little bit of knowledge can be very dangerous.
I agree -- but if someone WANTS to take the long way around, more power to them.
 

Anasazi23

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The point of getting medical training is to practice medicine.

Psychologists should not be doing this.

Basically he's describing someone who goes to psychology school, gets trained as a psychologist, then takes cursory coursework, presumably with no clinical rotations with resident responsibilities (where "real" medicine is learned) then somehow applies this to psychiatric patients.

Seriously, if someone is so interested in mental health, medicine, and psychopharmacology, get your MD or DO and play all you want. That's what it is. Why do we have to invent some complicated, artificial degree program?

The extrapolation of this to other medical fields sounds even more ludicrous. Why not let the CCU nurse take medical courses, pharmacology training, and see cardiac patients? The standard of care in that scenario is to just see a friggin' cardiologist. The route for this type of education is already in place.

There is no Master's in medicine that I'm aware of that carries any kind of serious clout. This doesn't really seem to be a realistic question.

If all you want is medical training and/or knowledge for your personal interest...be my guest. But the minute you start applying or making medical recommendations - that's a serious problem for both you and the patient.
 

mosche

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Anasazi23 said:
The point of getting medical training is to practice medicine.

Psychologists should not be doing this.

Basically he's describing someone who goes to psychology school, gets trained as a psychologist, then takes cursory coursework, presumably with no clinical rotations with resident responsibilities (where "real" medicine is learned) then somehow applies this to psychiatric patients.

Seriously, if someone is so interested in mental health, medicine, and psychopharmacology, get your MD or DO and play all you want. That's what it is. Why do we have to invent some complicated, artificial degree program?

The extrapolation of this to other medical fields sounds even more ludicrous. Why not let the CCU nurse take medical courses, pharmacology training, and see cardiac patients? The standard of care in that scenario is to just see a friggin' cardiologist. The route for this type of education is already in place.

There is no Master's in medicine that I'm aware of that carries any kind of serious clout. This doesn't really seem to be a realistic question.

If all you want is medical training and/or knowledge for your personal interest...be my guest. But the minute you start applying or making medical recommendations - that's a serious problem for both you and the patient.
Point taken. However I was assuming "medical training" to be all encompassing. I do not think that it ought to be a "short cut". But, provided that it's all encompassing, I still stand by my original argument.
 
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I was mainly referring to MSCP programs, PA and NP programs etc. However, I can't see what would be BAD about a psychologist knowing enough to say to a patient, "that sounds like akathisia, you should get in to see your doc soon", or the like. I find it scary that for alot of patients the only provider they see is an outpatient psychologist who would not even know the s/s of any med/psych issue (MVP, thyroid etc.), and thus not refer the pt back to their MD.
Practicing medicine is not what I was talking about. I love to get anasazi going on a Friday!!

cheers
 

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It seems that psychologists with medical knowledge will be better positioned to make appropriate referrals back to physicians when there are concerns.
 

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psisci said:
RxP aside, how do you psychiatry students feel about the big push for psychologists to get some level of medical training (MS program etc..). :confused:

Are you a medical student or by chance a resident?
 

Anasazi23

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Aw, I wasn't really getting worked up in that last post...my tone of voice wasn't conveyed properly with the written word. Everyone knows how I feel about this. It's no secret.

A psychologist referring their therapy or testing patient back to a physician for akithetic symptoms? Sounds good to me.

I'm being continually paged. I gotta go. I can't wait till residency is over.
 
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Good we agree on something. I think you will find most psychologists want this training so we can do just that, not so we can treat these conditions..that would be stupid.
 

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Anasazi23 said:
Aw, I wasn't really getting worked up in that last post...my tone of voice wasn't conveyed properly with the written word. Everyone knows how I feel about this. It's no secret.

A psychologist referring their therapy or testing patient back to a physician for akithetic symptoms? Sounds good to me.

I'm being continually paged. I gotta go. I can't wait till residency is over.
I am glad to hear that Anasazi. I think that type of model is much of what Psisci and I are referring to. It is helpful when psychologists take on medical training and then incorporate it into patient care. For a psychologist to have medical knowledge and not incorporate it into patient care seems unethical. If we identify lithium toxicity, we had better act. Were going to contact the psychiatrist/ER so the patient can get the assistance they need.

Psychologists don’t want to treat orthostatic hypotension or hypothyroidism, but it is remarkably helpful when we know how to spot it and refer out. I have found that patients appreciate it and so do the physicians. Again, this model is not a threat. In fact, two of my professional references are psychiatrists.
 

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Psycheval or psici, how do psychologists feel about LSW? And do you know what the full scope of their practice is? I'm asking because I've worked with psychologists that seem to do a lot of testing (in hosp), LSW's seem to do a lot of the therapy in outpt setting, but in hospital they do a lot of the sociological aspects of patient care (housing etc) What do you find the true role of psychologists to be in the outpt and inpt settings? And do the LSW role complement the psychologists role? Thanks for any input!
 

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psychologists have NO business prescribing meds PERIOD. This is ridiculous. stick to your own job!!!!!!
 

mosche

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engineer said:
psychologists have NO business prescribing meds PERIOD. This is ridiculous. stick to your own job!!!!!!
Rather absolutist. Why do you feel that way? Especially since you admit that it is a job, and in the job market "cross training" is all the rage.
 

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There have been reasonable points made on both sides of this argument so far.

I can see how it would be good for psychologists to have more medical training so that they are more aware of when they need to refer out, just as a psychiatrist who knows more about different types of therapy and testing will know what kind of therapists/testing their patients need from psychologists.

Of course, a little knowledge can be a dangerous thing, if psychologists start to feel pressure to prescribe without knowing how other medical factors are playing into the equation.

In the places I've worked so far, there is enough work to go around so that psychiatrists aren't fighting with psychologists about who gets which patients - it's more that there is a shortage of mental health care all around.