240 vs 241

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rafman

rafman

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Hi, after reading many threads on SDN, it seems like anything above a 240 is considered somewhat competitive for most specialties. Does a score of 240 count in this (i.e. does having a 240 make me just as competitive as someone with a 241 or 242)? Or do they really mean 241+. I'm sorry if this question sounds dumb or paranoid, I just got my score back today and I can't figure it out. Thanks for all of your help and insight!!
 
Lol you can't be serious.

240 is a great score and is very competitive for nearly every specialty except maybe derm and integrated plastics. Even those 2 aren't out of reach provided the rest of your residency app is solid and you apply broadly.
 
Disregard the haters. Go for the 241.
2dr29.jpg
 
Oh lawd.

On the off-chance this is not a troll thread - All things equal a 240 will lose to a 241. However, the difference is so tiny that this should be one of the last things you should worry about (since you said you already got your score report back).
 
rafman said:
Hi, after reading many threads on SDN, it seems like anything above a 240 is considered somewhat competitive for most specialties. Does a score of 240 count in this (i.e. does having a 240 make me just as competitive as someone with a 241 or 242)? Or do they really mean 241+. I'm sorry if this question sounds dumb or paranoid, I just got my score back today and I can't figure it out. Thanks for all of your help and insight!!
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240 means no specialty is closed off to you (yet). That's all it means. Congrats on the score and troll harder next time.
 
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Anything below 250 these days is essentially a crap shoot for matching




















i0H4uLe.gif
 
alpinism said:
Lol you can't be serious.

240 is a great score and is very competitive for nearly every specialty except maybe derm and integrated plastics. Even those 2 aren't out of reach provided the rest of your residency app is solid and you apply broadly.
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I disagree that a 240 is a great score. The average is 227-230. A 240 is above average but not stellar.

This isn't 2005, when a 240 was ~2 SDs above the mean. It's not even a full SD above the mean now.

To me, great scores are 250+.
 
230 is the magic number, not 240. If you have a 230 and up you can pursue any specialty and have a reasonable chance of matching. 240+ is ideal, but very rarely are you going to be screened out for having a 230-239. A 230 scorer may not match at the best PRS, derm, optho, or rad-onc program, but if his ducks are in a row, applies broadly, and can interview well, will most likely match somewhere. Your peers will not like this and will tell you that the most competitive specialties are reserved for people with 250+ because they either (1) have this score and are going for competitive specialties and feel like they worked harder and deserve it more or (2) have similar scores and are resentful that they have been shut out of certain specialties and feel insecure seeing someone "go for it."

220-229 is the danger zone for competitive specialties. You probably will still match, but it will be difficult if you're average everywhere else on your application, whereas someone with a 250 with no AOA, few honors, and little research probably will match simply because of the 250.

210-219 is where you are really "going for it." You will get screened and round-filed by many programs simply because of your score. You can still match but will face extreme prejudice by the majority of PDs who are snobby about step scores. You likely will still get interviews, but you will be interviewing for the program's "safety spots" at the bottom of the rank list. It's very unlikely that you can woo your way to the top of the rank list at an interview. Despite what is commonly said, you are NOT on a "level playing field once you get the interview" when your scores are in this range.

The whole thing is stupid. Is a 229 applicant really that much worse than a 231? No, of course not. But plenty of programs decide to interview and rank based on stupid logic like this. Sad but true.

If applying for competitive specialties and your step 1 is under ~235, you should have a step 2 score on file at the time of application. PDs will want to see that you have passed step 2 before they grant you an interview if your step 1 is below average for the field. They don't want somebody who fails step 2 after they are ranked.
 
notbobtrustme said:
I disagree that a 240 is a great score. The average is 227-230. A 240 is above average but not stellar.

This isn't 2005, when a 240 was ~2 SDs above the mean. It's not even a full SD above the mean now.

To me, great scores are 250+.
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Wow, was a 240 really 2 SDs above the mean then? I think it's now 260.
 
DermViser said:
Wow, was a 240 really 2 SDs above the mean then? I think it's now 260.
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*Sigh.* This is because the astronomically increased emphasis placed on Step exams by undergraduate medical education programs as the "key to your success in medicine". 15 years ago these were still mainly thought of as pass/fail exams. I remember telling my research advisor I was going to take 7 weeks to study for Step 1 and his reply was "I took 7 days".
 
mdeast said:
*Sigh.* This is because the astronomically increased emphasis placed on Step exams by undergraduate medical education programs as the "key to your success in medicine". 15 years ago these were still mainly thought of as pass/fail exams. I remember telling my research advisor I was going to take 7 weeks to study for Step 1 and his reply was "I took 7 days".
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Wow, just...wow. Probably correlates well to the explosion of review resources for med students now for the Step exam. Of course before the USMLE, I think you could take the NBME or the FLEX exam, depending on what you decided.
 
mdeast said:
*Sigh.* This is because the astronomically increased emphasis placed on Step exams by undergraduate medical education programs as the "key to your success in medicine". 15 years ago these were still mainly thought of as pass/fail exams. I remember telling my research advisor I was going to take 7 weeks to study for Step 1 and his reply was "I took 7 days".
Click to expand...

My dad (graduated mid 70s) studied during the two-day weekend after M2 finals, then took his boards on Monday.
 
evilbooyaa said:
Oh lawd.

On the off-chance this is not a troll thread - All things equal a 240 will lose to a 241. However, the difference is so tiny that this should be one of the last things you should worry about (since you said you already got your score report back).
Click to expand...

Trumping a 241 as a 240 in that scenario would probably be as simple as guessing your interviewer's preference for crunchy or creamy peanut butter. Better get to snooping OP.
 
Psai said:
well they probably didn't give him those 20 sentence vignettes about some 60 year old woman with a lump in her breast just to ask a simple biochem question
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Back then, the questions on standardized exams were straight rote memorization like this: http://www2.uic.edu/stud_orgs/prof/samsa/Spring07Survival/Anatomy/NBME Review/NBME Questions - Anatomy.pdf

As medical students get smarter and do better on these exams, the questions are made harder: eliminating buzzwords, making them clinical vignettes ?s, adding sequential item sets, incorporating images and diagrams, incorporating heart sounds, etc. As if they didn't need any more help, you can even enter an NBME competition to come up with new, innovative ways to test physicians (a.k.a. how to make it harder): http://www.nbme.org/PDF/CentennialP..._Prize_Competition.Rules_and_Instructions.pdf

It's become a whole chain industry now.
 
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I found a copy of a 2001 First Aid in my library last year. It was a joke compared to the editions now. It was maybe 1/4 the thickness of the current First Aid books and the material was much more superficial. The internet and subsequent proliferation of resources have upped the game immensely.
 
D elegans said:
I found a copy of a 2001 First Aid in my library last year. It was a joke compared to the editions now. It was maybe 1/4 the thickness of the current First Aid books and the material was much more superficial. The internet and subsequent proliferation of resources have upped the game immensely.
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I think First Aid used to be much more high yield when it initially started. The exam has gone thru so many changes and I have to wonder whether some of the facts are truly added bc people saw the stuff tested on their exams, or is information added to make it more all-encompassing.
 
DermViser said:
I think First Aid used to be much more high yield when it initially started. The exam has gone thru so many changes and I have to wonder whether some of the facts are truly added bc people saw the stuff tested on their exams, or is information added to make it more all-encompassing.
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I'm sure that's quite true. I think recent First Aid editions (last I looked at was 2013) are pretty bloated.
 
Psai said:
well they probably didn't give him those 20 sentence vignettes about some 60 year old woman with a lump in her breast just to ask a simple biochem question
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^^^THIS.

Exams are speeded now and reward fast readers and those with higher IQs. It becomes less about what you know and more about how fast you can solve a riddle and how long you can maintain your concentration.

It's a major problem that nobody is addressing. The cottage industry of test prep services, the drug abuse by students trying to get an edge, the distraction from medical school curricula, the depression, anguish, and even suicides over test results, etc.

Oh, so your dad studied for 2 days back in the 70s? Probably doesn't remember his score either. How, oh how, did those poor derm PDs rank their applicants back then?
 
atomi said:
^^^THIS.

Exams are speeded now and reward fast readers and those with higher IQs. It becomes less about what you know and more about how fast you can solve a riddle and how long you can maintain your concentration.

It's a major problem that nobody is addressing. The cottage industry of test prep services, the drug abuse by students trying to get an edge, the distraction from medical school curricula, the depression, anguish, and even suicides over test results, etc.

Oh, so your dad studied for 2 days back in the 70s? Probably doesn't remember his score either. How, oh how, did those poor derm PDs rank their applicants back then?
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Who could hold their liquor better
 
notbobtrustme said:
**** derm was bottom of the barrel back in the '70s. the real heat was in surgery and medicine.
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That's bc your typical medical student back then went into a specialty purely for the intellectual pursuit bc ALL of medicine paid well (not to mention very little debt). Surgical specialties obviously paid more, but this was expected due to many more years of training. Now your typical millenial medical student looks carefully at lifestyle and is willing to give up more salary for better hours.

http://www.acepnow.com/article/todays-medical-students-medical-school-landscape/
http://med.wmich.edu/how-are-millennial-students-and-faculty-different-previous-generations
http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2006/08/msoc1-0608.html
 
DermViser said:
That's bc your typical medical student back then went into a specialty purely for the intellectual pursuit bc ALL of medicine paid well (not to mention very little debt). Surgical specialties obviously paid more, but this was expected due to many more years of training. Now your typical millenial medical student looks carefully at lifestyle and is willing to give up more salary for better hours.

http://www.acepnow.com/article/todays-medical-students-medical-school-landscape/
http://med.wmich.edu/how-are-millennial-students-and-faculty-different-previous-generations
http://virtualmentor.ama-assn.org/2006/08/msoc1-0608.html
Click to expand...

Well that was before they figured out that medicine was really easy and that none of us ever work hard and should make no money. Things are so much better now!
 
atomi said:
^^^THIS.

Exams are speeded now and reward fast readers and those with higher IQs. It becomes less about what you know and more about how fast you can solve a riddle and how long you can maintain your concentration.

It's a major problem that nobody is addressing. The cottage industry of test prep services, the drug abuse by students trying to get an edge, the distraction from medical school curricula, the depression, anguish, and even suicides over test results, etc.

Oh, so your dad studied for 2 days back in the 70s? Probably doesn't remember his score either. How, oh how, did those poor derm PDs rank their applicants back then?
Click to expand...

Some serious doom and gloom going on there, man.

The drugs being abused these days are different than back in the 70s, but drug abuse is nothing new. Plus, all the depression, anguish, etc is a product of the type of students that get into med school, not just the med school process itself.
 
dyspareunia said:
Some serious doom and gloom going on there, man.

The drugs being abused these days are different than back in the 70s, but drug abuse is nothing new. Plus, all the depression, anguish, etc is a product of the type of students that get into med school, not just the med school process itself.
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The drugs abused these days are mental performance enhancing drugs (prescription drugs). I disagree with you. The students these days are the same as the ones back then. Back then you could do 1 year and set up shop.
 
DermViser said:
The drugs abused these days are mental performance enhancing drugs (prescription drugs). I disagree with you. The students these days are the same as the ones back then. Back then you could do 1 year and set up shop.
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Today it's adderall and in the 70s it was cocaine. Different drugs, but nothing new as far as abuse goes.

I could be wrong, but I imagine that med students in the 70s were sons and daughters of physicians who cruised their way into and through med school. No stress, get in, get out, take over dad's practice. These days the physician legacy is still around, but now most people are working their asses off and going crazy over grades/scores. If pre-meds and med students were always this crazy it would be old hat by now.
 
before, you could work minimum wage, buy a house with a picket fence and the brand new Ford every other year, work for 30 years and retire with a pension. Your wife didn't need to work. You didn't even need to graduate high school. Then in the '70s, a high school diploma became mandatory for financial success. People who went on to college and further did so because they liked learning. Nowadays, a college degree in a highly demanded field is no ticket to financial freedom. Medicine remains one of the only careers where you are guaranteed a high salary if you jump through all the hoops. You think getting into medical school would be as difficult today if you could drop out in the 8th grade and buy a house? Hell no.

That's why you can't compare the past 30 years to the past decade. Everything has gotten more competitive because the roads to success have narrowed considerably.
 
atomi said:
230 is the magic number, not 240. If you have a 230 and up you can pursue any specialty and have a reasonable chance of matching. 240+ is ideal, but very rarely are you going to be screened out for having a 230-239. A 230 scorer may not match at the best PRS, derm, optho, or rad-onc program, but if his ducks are in a row, applies broadly, and can interview well, will most likely match somewhere.
Click to expand...

I agree with your post for the most part, but I do think the "magic number" is closer to 240 than 230 for competitive specialties. This is anecdotal evidence, but I recently had an interview with a PD from a "competitive specialty" and I was told that they won't even interview anyone with a step 1 <240.
 
Amba said:
I agree with your post for the most part, but I do think the "magic number" is closer to 240 than 230 for competitive specialties. This is anecdotal evidence, but I recently had an interview with a PD from a "competitive specialty" and I was told that they won't even interview anyone with a step 1 <240.
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This is probably correct based on the Outcomes of the Match from the NRMP stats on the magic number. I don't know what specialty the PD you talked to was from, but usually a 240 is not a hard and fast rule. Not having a 240, means you'll have to up your application in other areas. Maybe he doesn't interview anyone less than 240 as his location of his residency is very competitive?
 
DermViser said:
This is probably correct based on the Outcomes of the Match from the NRMP stats on the magic number. I don't know what specialty the PD you talked to was from, but usually a 240 is not a hard and fast rule. Not having a 240, means you'll have to up your application in other areas. Maybe he doesn't interview anyone less than 240 as his location of his residency is very competitive?
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Yep, you basically nailed it. Uro in NYC.
 
Amba said:
Yep, you basically nailed it. Uro in NYC.
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Well yeah, when you have most applicants sending out over 50 applications with an average step score of over 240 and about 1/3 won't match, the pds can afford to be a little selective.
 
Psai said:
Well yeah, when you have most applicants sending out over 50 applications with an average step score of over 240 and about 1/3 won't match, the pds can afford to be a little selective.
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Yes, but Urology in Dayton, OH is still going to be less competitive than Urology in NYC. The latter could set the cutoff at 250 and probably still match all their spots.
 
DermViser said:
This is probably correct based on the Outcomes of the Match from the NRMP stats on the magic number. I don't know what specialty the PD you talked to was from, but usually a 240 is not a hard and fast rule. Not having a 240, means you'll have to up your application in other areas. Maybe he doesn't interview anyone less than 240 as his location of his residency is very competitive?
Click to expand...

Besides taking a year off to do research, how much can you really do to up your application?
 
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