2nd looks???

[jc237]

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I want to do second looks for several programs that I would be happy matching in. What are expected of applicants during second look? I just want to go in, talk to PD for a few minutes, maybe ask a resident a few more questions, and be done with it. Some say you should go there, spend a whole day with the resident in the OR.... huh?

And when are you guys doing second looks? I know you want to do them before the committee meets to decide their rank list, but when???

Alrighty guys, thanks. Hope everything is well.

 

[aredoubleyou]

I know you want to do them before the committee meets to decide their rank list, but when???.

Does anyone have a good sense if these things really matter as far as rank list - cuz im broke.

 

[BubbleHead]

Do any hotels or airlines take IOUs from Anesthesia Applicants? I'll be good for it in 4 years 😀 Seriously though, do you request a second look or is it my invitation?

 

[j fizz]

I want to do second looks for several programs that I would be happy matching in. What are expected of applicants during second look? I just want to go in, talk to PD for a few minutes, maybe ask a resident a few more questions, and be done with it. Some say you should go there, spend a whole day with the resident in the OR.... huh?

And when are you guys doing second looks? I know you want to do them before the committee meets to decide their rank list, but when???

Alrighty guys, thanks. Hope everything is well.

We were invited to do 2nd looks at a couple of my (well respected midwest) interviews. To paraphrase one of the PD's: do a second look if you still have questions about my program, and spend a day with the residents to see what it's really like. I won't know if you're here and I don't care.

I've been told by another chair and a staff that 2nd looks are typically not done in this (soon to be our!!?!!) field and that if you're doing it to impress, it won't. They even went so far as to say it could be a negative.

Of course these are just two perspectives, but the first one makes sense to me. I'll do one if I was having trouble making my rank list and if I have a bunch of extra $$ laying around.

 

[jc237]

One of the interviews I went to, the PD told me that one year, he decided to rank applicants based solely on whether or not the applicant did a second look. He said it didn't really work for him that year, so he sorta abandoned that ranking technique. So I know at least for some programs, it's definitely looked at positively, and for applicants to this program that particular year, it was vital.

But please get back to my original questions: What is expected of us at these second looks and when is it typically done?

 

[freshity]

i'm curious to know why you would do a second look if you already know you'd be happy matching at a program? why spend your (and everyone else's) precious time and money? are you still gathering decision-making info?

and to answer your quetions, i guess programs expect an applicant to 1)know why they have come there for a second look, and 2)to have some specific objectives for their time there. at least that is the sense i've gotten from programs who have encouraged second looks.

 

[jc237]

i'm curious to know why you would do a second look if you already know you'd be happy matching at a program? why spend your (and everyone else's) precious time and money? are you still gathering decision-making info?

and to answer your quetions, i guess programs expect an applicant to 1)know why they have come there for a second look, and 2)to have some specific objectives for their time there. at least that is the sense i've gotten from programs who have encouraged second looks.

The programs that I'll rank highly are all in the same geographic area. And I happen to live in this geographic area. So, it doesn't really involve a lot of time/effort/money on my part, I guess. Although I know what my top 5 is, I don't know the exact order yet. So I'll use the second looks to try to tease out more answers, and also at the same time express my desire to match there.

My post was not meant to stress everyone out, meaning that if you don't do second looks there, they're gonna think you're not interested. I certainly don't think this is true. It's just that second looks are not that inconvenient to me, my rank order list is not finalized, I think it may (or not) help a little with how they rank you, so why not do it? 👍

 

[KluverBucy]

The programs that I'll rank highly are all in the same geographic area. And I happen to live in this geographic area. So, it doesn't really involve a lot of time/effort/money on my part, I guess. Although I know what my top 5 is, I don't know the exact order yet. So I'll use the second looks to try to tease out more answers, and also at the same time express my desire to match there.

My post was not meant to stress everyone out, meaning that if you don't do second looks there, they're gonna think you're not interested. I certainly don't think this is true. It's just that second looks are not that inconvenient to me, my rank order list is not finalized, I think it may (or not) help a little with how they rank you, so why not do it? 👍

then if you're still undecided, maybe you should go on a 2nd look? just know what you want to get out of that.

as far as my experience this year, i've had a PD tell me that 2nd looks won't do anything positive for a candidate, as they won't consider that when they make their rank list. he thought applicants try to use it to kiss-up to programs, and that brownie points weren't granted for 2nd looks. In fact, he went on to say that it could possibly be a negative if they get the impression that you wouldn't be a good fit for their program. so i would say, go on a 2nd look if you really need some questions answered, but otherwise with respect to most programs, i don't think it'll improve your chances.

 

[no oxygen]

I'm going to do a couple of second looks here in the next couple of weeks...however, it is more for my wife than myself. She has veto power and refuses to let me rank a program numero uno if she has never seen the city. Plus, at the two programs I'm most interested in, I didn't have time to explore the neighborhoods and look around at housing, etc...But, I have no pretenses that doing a second look will in any way affect my ranking, which is what I've been told by PDs along the trail.

 

[Pir8DeacDoc]

At least in surgery, the second look involves spending a day with the team in the OR. It typically involves some level of pimping. I think it's a strategy to get brownie points. If all you want is more info, etc why not e mail some of the residents that you felt comfortable with at each program? Also, you could consider just going to the hospital and nosing around. Ask different people/ residents in other fields you run into at the hospital what they think of the anesthesia department. As long as you have clear goals and specific questions you want answered, it should work fine.

 

[smittma1]

Speaking only for Hopkins, I would recommend a second look only to the applicant who still is undecided on his/her rank list.

If you've already decided on Hopkins's position on your rank list (I hope it's #1 😍 ), no need to visit. Your visit won't affect your position on our rank list.

If you're still undecided, give us a call and spend the day any way you wish. We can recommend local real estate agents and the chief residents will try to arrange housing with one of the residents.

If we've decided after your first visit that you won't be on our rank list, we'll let you know so that you don't waste time and money.

Scott Mittman
Program Director

 

[Idiopathic]

Your visit won't affect your position on our rank list.

I think this is a key statement here. People need to make sure they know that a second look will very rarely change how the program sees you. One trying to impress a program by doing a second look, etc, is probably wasting resources.

Id obviously love to do second looks (I think most of us would), but its awfully cost prohibitive, especially when one is turning down good interviews because of $$$.

 

[rugtrousers]

I've done two second looks, because I really wanted to talk to residents and faculty outside the context of an interview. In both cases, I stayed 3.5-4 hours, long enough to sit in on part of a case, go on ICU rounds, and talk to the PD again. I dressed casually, with OR-suitable shoes. If you are really undecided (or want to feel more confident about making your decision), I recommend the second look.

 

[KluverBucy]

now here's where it really gets tough. what about 3rd looks? i hear that if you do a third look, then you're money. no need to rank any other programs cause you'll be guaranteed a spot. in fact, they say that on 3rd looks you get offered a contract. is there any validity to this??

 

[DrDre']

The only thing that will stop me from going on my second and third looks is a contract or magically meeting a beautiful gal with Kluver-Bucy. Why oh why are you so rare???

now here's where it really gets tough. what about 3rd looks? i hear that if you do a third look, then you're money. no need to rank any other programs cause you'll be guaranteed a spot. in fact, they say that on 3rd looks you get offered a contract. is there any validity to this??

 

[davvid2700]

i would not rank someone who asked for a second look. That is indecisive to me.. Most of the time you have to make up your mind with insufficient information.. Plus yous pent the whole day there on interview day didnt you?

 

[Idiopathic]

i would not rank someone who asked for a second look. That is indecisive to me.. Most of the time you have to make up your mind with insufficient information.. Plus yous pent the whole day there on interview day didnt you?

This is not a very good attitude to promote. We have a PD of a major institution saying on here that he welcomes second looks, and I have had no fewer than 5 PD's encourage me to take a second day to go around the OR, etc.

To say that you wouldnt rank someone who asked for one is unfortunate. It is one way of a candidate expressing sincere (extreme?) interest in your program, enough to travel and spend a day with the residents getting more info. I would wholeheartedly endorse them and I might be swayed by those who actually show up and do one (when i get in that position).

I actually hope you are joking, after reading the last sentence. Somehow, I think not.

 

[DrDre']

You're so tough. It is far easier to make a critical, emergent medical decision than to decide on a residency that will last four years.

i would not rank someone who asked for a second look. That is indecisive to me.. Most of the time you have to make up your mind with insufficient information.. Plus yous pent the whole day there on interview day didnt you?

 

[chicamedica]

i would not rank someone who asked for a second look. That is indecisive to me.. Most of the time you have to make up your mind with insufficient information.. Plus yous pent the whole day there on interview day didnt you?

Even a 2nd look may not be enough information to give an accurate picture of what being a resident at a program would be like. Heck, even a month elective may not be, and that is a lot more info than is possible to glean from an interview day. Going by info from interview day, you're basically basing your decision on hearsay. i dont see what is so negative about wanting to see a day (or more) for yourself. That's still insufficient info but more than otherwise.

That said, are you absolutely SURE you want applicants judging your program by only those few hours exposure? What if some unpredictable thing happened and a particular interview session ended up presenting the program in a bad light?

 

[chicamedica]

You're so tough. It is far easier to make a critical, emergent medical decision than to decide on a residency that will last four years.

Also, making a decision about where to do residency training is far from being emergent, and should not be a last-minute, split second decision. i think it's a far more valuable character quality to be able to differentiate when it's more important to ponder a decision and weigh all options vs when an emergent decison has to be made immediately. Nobody's life is at stake by taking one's time deciding on a residency program and trying to gather as much info as one can.

 

[fishtolive]

Even a 2nd look may not be enough information to give an accurate picture of what being a resident at a program would be like. Heck, even a month elective may not be, and that is a lot more info than is possible to glean from an interview day. Going by info from interview day, you're basically basing your decision on hearsay. i dont see what is so negative about wanting to see a day (or more) for yourself. That's still insufficient info but more than otherwise.

I'm with the chica on this one. Although many if not most people will be able to pick the right residency for them based on an interview alone, you'll never get the total picture and hence cannot be totally informed. From personal experience, I did an away at a place which is arguably top-tier and has wowed my friends on interviews but that I will not even rank because spending a month in the trenches helped me see the light. On the flip side, I will rank #1 the other away I did because the reality of the program is even better than what they could show on the interview.

 

[wcostell]

Are there any Tricks of the Trail that are, in fact, worth doing? Thank you notes are good, any other ideas? I'm pretty well settled on top 5, but I'd go the extra mile to get #1. The question is, a mile in which direction? 😕

 

[supahfresh]

Although I myself did a second look and would have encouraged it last year, I would like to recommend to you guys not to do second looks. based on what I've been hearing from friends, residents, etc, it seems like it could hurt. I know it's totally stupid, but I don't want anyone to get screwed. Only do the second look if you truly need to see something you missed.

of course, Dr. Mittman is pretty cool for coming on this forum to welcome anyone so you could probably go there with no probs.

Best of luck.

 

[fukuisan]

Supahfresh,

Just wondering if you could elaborate on how 2nd looks can hurt?

I think I'm in the same situation as a lot of other applicants in that I have my top 5 pretty much set but have no idea which one I want to rank #1... I think the only way I can really decide is to do 2nd looks. Are there any other resources besides this sdn, the program websites, and scutwork.com that I could turn to?

 

[supahfresh]

Fukuisan, I just PM'd you. The main thing is DO NOT do a second look to try and make your self look good. They will see right through you and destroy you. if you need more info, start with email. i guess you may have to go back if you truly cant decide. all i'm saying is beware.