Transferring to Anesthesia? Looking for Advice

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DogguieUp

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Surgery resident here looking for advice about transferring to an anesthesiology program, hopefully into a CA1 spot. To keep things as anonymous as possible I'll not share a lot of details as to why I want to change programs/specialties. I am resident in good standing with my program and I still very much enjoy surgery. However I am to the point were I am not sure if I can finish the residency. I am working about 14-16hrs per day and I am on a 24hr call/back-up every other week which leaves barely any time to study for the in-service exam, let alone enjoy some free time. Whatever free time I can find I use it to sleep because I am tired all the time and cant concentrate enough to study. At this point, because I haven't been doing well on the in-service exams I don't think I can get into my preferred fellowship. I understand residency is not easy, especially surgery, but I feel like what I am doing is futile since I will be miserable if I continue with this program. I am not the only one that feels this way in my program.

Do you guys have advice for me or know about residents/attendings that have made the transition? Btw, I am choosing anesthesiology because I find it very interesting and was actually one of my 2 specialties when applying for residency as a 4th year (kind of regret choosing surgery to some degree now). Thanks.



EDIT: I am not a PGY-1 nor a PGY-5, I am somewhere in between those two years.

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Good luck. I’ve known many surgery residents who have made the switch to anesthesiology. A close buddy of mine did half of a surgery residency along with a surgical ICU fellowship, only to make the switch to anesthesiology, and is happy. While any residency isn’t necessarily reflective of what you’ll be doing as an attending (so be careful that you aren’t making this decision solely based on your poor quality of life as a surgical resident), if your gut tells you that you are in the wrong specialty, and you think anesthesiology is the right fit, go for the switch. You won’t look back. Realize and know that the grass isn’t always greener, and anesthesiology as a specially definitely has its challenges – I’m sure you’ve looked into those.
 
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Consider McKinsey consulting. I’m not kidding. In hindsight when I was in New York as an intern transition /prelim year me and this other surgery 3 third year offered consulting internship. One of my biggest what ifs in life. 3rd year surgery resident left. I didn’t and started pgy-2 year the following month

It’s intense. 2 year. You move up or you are done and gotta find something else to do. That’s how the business world works. I text the former surgery resident from time to time. He travels 200 plus days out of the year 20 years later. Base salary for him (he moved on from McKinsey years ago and works for another consulting firm (one recently in the government news). Base is 200k but his bonus is usually twice as much as my anesthesia yearly income.

So it may not be surgery you don’t enjoy. It may be the practice of medicine altogether.
 
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And that's a good job?
Sounds like the worst job ever
The travel life not for everyone. It can be fun though.

Image locums travelers.

The difference if you aren’t staying at Marriott residence inn or Hilton garden

You stay at pretty upscale hotels the employers paid for when you are executive

Like their budget for nyc travel hotel is $600/night for my friend in consulting business but if there isn’t a hotel up to his standard they will approve a $1000/night hotel.

No regular anesthesia staffing company will do that
 
Consider McKinsey consulting. I’m not kidding. In hindsight when I was in New York as an intern transition /prelim year me and this other surgery 3 third year offered consulting internship. One of my biggest what ifs in life. 3rd year surgery resident left. I didn’t and started pgy-2 year the following month

It’s intense. 2 year. You move up or you are done and gotta find something else to do. That’s how the business world works. I text the former surgery resident from time to time. He travels 200 plus days out of the year 20 years later. Base salary for him (he moved on from McKinsey years ago and works for another consulting firm (one recently in the government news). Base is 200k but his bonus is usually twice as much as my anesthesia yearly income.

So it may not be surgery you don’t enjoy. It may be the practice of medicine altogether.
Sounds terrible. I'll stick to my guaranteed 500k a year gas passing career sleeping in my own bed every night
 
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Sounds terrible. I'll stick to my guaranteed 500k a year gas passing career sleeping in my own bed every night
The job market can change rapidly. From 2012-2017. Salaries in anesthesia were very depressed. 275-325k based on 48-52 hour work weeks were normal with 6 weeks vacation.

We old timers know 1995-2000 years. Some places in the south were paying 70-90k for full time call taking MDs. My sister and brother were only making 110k-120k a year cardiac fellowship trained plus doing all cases ob in house solo and this was late 1990s in northeast.

If hospitals have their way. They will contract staffing. Go towards hourly model and you would be working for ur 500k in a different manner. And harder. 425-450k I starting salary for new grads with 9-10 weeks now.

Stark contrast to 10 years ago. Some mednax Atlanta lawrenceville were paying as little as 180k after they sold out.
 
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The travel life not for everyone. It can be fun though.

Image locums travelers.

The difference if you aren’t staying at Marriott residence inn or Hilton garden

You stay at pretty upscale hotels the employers paid for when you are executive

Like their budget for nyc travel hotel is $600/night for my friend in consulting business but if there isn’t a hotel up to his standard they will approve a $1000/night hotel.

No regular anesthesia staffing company will do that

I wouldn't want to be flopping around in needlessly expensive hotels just to show some random douchebags all my expensive powerpoints and excel spreadsheets, all with the end goal of screwing over the rest of the country. Working in management consulting sounds awful. The saving grace in medicine is that we help people everyday and get paid decently enough for it.

Also this is hilarious and on point:

John Oliver on McKinsey
 
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The job market can change rapidly. From 2012-2017. Salaries in anesthesia were very depressed. 275-325k based on 48-52 hour work weeks were normal with 6 weeks vacation.

We old timers know 1995-2000 years. Some places in the south were paying 70-90k for full time call taking MDs. My sister and brother were only making 110k-120k a year cardiac fellowship trained plus doing all cases ob in house solo and this was late 1990s in northeast.

If hospitals have their way. They will contract staffing. Go towards hourly model and you would be working for ur 500k in a different manner. And harder. 425-450k I starting salary for new grads with 9-10 weeks now.

Stark contrast to 10 years ago. Some mednax Atlanta lawrenceville were paying as little as 180k after they sold out.
Obviously you are way more experienced than I am but I can't fathom what doomsday scenario that would drop our compensation back to 110k-120k, in that scenario I would be lining behind all the underworked surgeons, proceduralists and device reps in the soup kitchen line.

I still don't know what a consultant does and I think they are leeches and contribute nothing to the overall system. To recommend it over something like Anesthesia is just bad advice.
 
Surgery resident here looking for advice about transferring to an anesthesiology program, hopefully into a CA1 spot. To keep things as anonymous as possible I'll not share a lot of details as to why I want to change programs/specialties. I am resident in good standing with my program and I still very much enjoy surgery. However I am to the point were I am not sure if I can finish the residency. I am working about 14-16hrs per day and I am on a 24hr call/back-up every other week which leaves barely any time to study for the in-service exam, let alone enjoy some free time. Whatever free time I can find I use it to sleep because I am tired all the time and cant concentrate enough to study. At this point, because I haven't been doing well on the in-service exams I don't think I can get into my preferred fellowship. I understand residency is not easy, especially surgery, but I feel like what I am doing is futile since I will be miserable if I continue with this program. I am not the only one that feels this way in my program.

Do you guys have advice for me or know about residents/attendings that have made the transition? Btw, I am choosing anesthesiology because I find it very interesting and was actually one of my 2 specialties when applying for residency as a 4th year (kind of regret choosing surgery to some degree now). Thanks.



EDIT: I am not a PGY-1 nor a PGY-5, I am somewhere in between those two years.
DogguieUp,

First of all, I'm sorry you find yourself in this situation. Take whatever comfort you can in knowing that you are in a boat with perhaps thousands of other residents across the country who are coming to understand that there is a vast gulf between the reality of training and the preview trailer you get during medical school. Since you are asking for advice about transferring now, its probably safe to assume that you didn't submit an ERAS application this year. What you should do in the immediate future is avail yourself of whatever support resources your institution has to see if you can find some ways to help you manage.

Now...I think its time for you to be a little more honest with yourself and with everyone else. One the one hand, you are saying that you are choosing anesthesiology because you have always found find it interesting. But on the other hand, you told us you still very much enjoy surgery and are currently a resident in good standing in your department. In fact, the only reasons you are dissatisfied with your current experience revolve around the time commitment and operational tempo your program is requiring of you.

Unless you have totally misrepresented your situation, it is abundantly clear that you are not thinking of changing specialties because you find one more interesting or professionally satisfying than the other. You are thinking of changing specialties because you want your residency experience to have a different work life balance.

That doesn't mean that you shouldn't switch. Plenty of people have made the switch and have done well. I've had dozens of residents who have come from surgical backgrounds and have thrived. I have a dozens upon dozens of applications right now from people wanting to switch. But before you jump over to where you think the grass is greener. How much anesthesia have you actually done? You do realize that for every long 14-16 hour surgical day or 24 hour call you have, there are anesthesia residents on the other side of that. Yes, their aggregate weekly hours could very well be less, but those long and grueling shifts exist on this side of the drape too. And that doesn't count all the non-OR areas that you will have to rotate through. OB, ICU, acute and chronic pain, off-service, etc.

The advice I have for you at this stage is to take a hard look at what's going on. You are are currently a resident who is successfully completing training and are currently enduring hard times. Are you just having some hard rotations with the workload lessening in the months and years ahead? After training, you have much more freedom to determine your own hours. Most people would say 30-40 years of a career you enjoy and find fulfilling is worth a temporary period of difficulty. Since you are between a PGY-2 - PGY-4. After this year, you will have between 1 and 3 years before graduating. If you make the switch next year, that's at least another 4 years from now before graduation...think about that.

But if you look in the mirror and still want to switch, then get as much experience actually doing anesthesia as possible. Come application season, there are a variety of reasons why residents decide to switch and successful change specialties. The common thread between them all is that the ones we try to take are the ones that are honest about it.
 
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However I am to the point were I am not sure if I can finish the residency. I am working about 14-16hrs per day and I am on a 24hr call/back-up every other week....
What about the 80 hr work week restrictions? Huh? Huh?
 
Anesthesia residency hours will be less for sure but the exams are harder than surgery I believe op
 
As some hinted at, don’t quit surgery because the RESIDENCY is hard/time consuming. It’ll be over in 2-3 years. Once you’re out, you can find a “niche” (thyroids/bariatrics/etc), that requires very little call.

YES, there are some great Anesthesia jobs out there. LOTS of bad ones, too. If you’re not in a position to MOVE where the great jobs are (Wife/family/gotta live in the city), there’s a good chance things could be WORSE, vs. doing surgery and “creating” the practice you want.

Plenty of anesthesia jobs where the group/hospital/surgeons determine when you work, and NOT YOU.

Do it because you like Anesthesia, or because you like being free from clinic, NOT just to make a couple of your residency years “easier”.
 
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As some hinted at, don’t quit surgery because the RESIDENCY is hard/time consuming. It’ll be over in 2-3 years. Once you’re out, you can find a “niche” (thyroids/bariatrics/etc), that requires very little call.

YES, there are some great Anesthesia jobs out there. LOTS of bad ones, too. If you’re not in a position to MOVE where the great jobs are (Wife/family/gotta live in the city), there’s a good chance things could be WORSE, vs. doing surgery and “creating” the practice you want.

Plenty of anesthesia jobs where the group/hospital/surgeons determine when you work, and NOT YOU.

Do it because you like Anesthesia, or because you like being free from clinic, NOT just to make a couple of your residency years “easier”.


Just this week I asked one of our orthopedists where he’s heading next after a couple of morning cases. He replied, “I’m in the penalty box (clinic) this afternoon.” I asked how many patients he needs to see and he said likely 30-35. At that point I realized I made at least one good decision in my life.
 
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I wouldn't want to be flopping around in needlessly expensive hotels just to show some random douchebags all my expensive powerpoints and excel spreadsheets, all with the end goal of screwing over the rest of the country. Working in management consulting sounds awful. The saving grace in medicine is that we help people everyday and get paid decently enough for it.

Also this is hilarious and on point:

John Oliver on McKinsey
McKinsey is just a stepping/starting point in most careers. It’s not the final stop. Just like your first 1-2 jobs likely won’t be your last job.

I average around 4-5 years at my jobs. While my siblings have been at their jobs for 20 plus years. The end point is the same.

I’m not tied to any particular job. Nothing is perfect.

I think people have this holistic view what a job should be. Very few people stay at their same jobs for 30 years. Couple of guys in the current practice have been that I know. But they refuse to change their style of practice. That’s not necessarily good either.
Obviously you are way more experienced than I am but I can't fathom what doomsday scenario that would drop our compensation back to 110k-120k, in that scenario I would be lining behind all the underworked surgeons, proceduralists and device reps in the soup kitchen line.

I still don't know what a consultant does and I think they are leeches and contribute nothing to the overall system. To recommend it over something like Anesthesia is just bad advice.
like I said. Our only saving grace is crna feel so entitled that they push up salaries for anesthesiologists

Image if arnp weren’t willing to take less than 250k for ER/urgent care jobs. It would completely change how EM docs would get paid.

But when arnp willing to take 130-150k to staff urgent care/er this drives EM incomes down. Cause you got the lowest common denominator.

Right now the Crnas and even the AAs won’t take less than 200k DAYTIME no call 4 days a week jobs. That’s the barrier When you extrapolate it to calls/weekends/nights “differential” for an available 5 day a week doc who has call weekend and weeknights availability. The key word is being available. That same crna /AA would cost the system at least 300k easy plus vacation.
 
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Consider McKinsey consulting. I’m not kidding. In hindsight when I was in New York as an intern transition /prelim year me and this other surgery 3 third year offered consulting internship. One of my biggest what ifs in life. 3rd year surgery resident left. I didn’t and started pgy-2 year the following month

It’s intense. 2 year. You move up or you are done and gotta find something else to do. That’s how the business world works. I text the former surgery resident from time to time. He travels 200 plus days out of the year 20 years later. Base salary for him (he moved on from McKinsey years ago and works for another consulting firm (one recently in the government news). Base is 200k but his bonus is usually twice as much as my anesthesia yearly income.

So it may not be surgery you don’t enjoy. It may be the practice of medicine altogether.
How far after his McK career is he? Curious what life after McK looks like -- I don't have many data points on it.
 
Consider McKinsey consulting. I’m not kidding. In hindsight when I was in New York as an intern transition /prelim year me and this other surgery 3 third year offered consulting internship. One of my biggest what ifs in life. 3rd year surgery resident left. I didn’t and started pgy-2 year the following month

It’s intense. 2 year. You move up or you are done and gotta find something else to do. That’s how the business world works. I text the former surgery resident from time to time. He travels 200 plus days out of the year 20 years later. Base salary for him (he moved on from McKinsey years ago and works for another consulting firm (one recently in the government news). Base is 200k but his bonus is usually twice as much as my anesthesia yearly income.

So it may not be surgery you don’t enjoy. It may be the practice of medicine altogether.
This is quite possibly the dumbest take on the Internet in the history of it's existence.

For me to travel 200 days of the year I need to be paid nearly a million dollars. 200k is ass.
 
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This is quite possibly the dumbest take on the Internet in the history of it's existence.

For me to travel 200 days of the year I need to be paid nearly a million dollars. 200k is ass.
It sounds like his salary would be in the 1.2 mil range (assuming that anesthesiologist’s salary is around 500k). However, that still won’t be worth it for many people.
 
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