2nd Looks

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emboli said:
How many do you guys plan on going to?

I'd love to schedule a second look for my top 4/5. Given it's close proximity, travel is no issue.
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i was planning for 0, but then i had a program tell me that the majority of people that matched there did a 2nd look so i said why not. it's my top choice in a good location and a cheap flight. from what i understand, 2nd looks are as meaningful as a college football team's head coach promising to stay.
 
thecampuslegend said:
i was planning for 0, but then i had a program tell me that the majority of people that matched there did a 2nd look so i said why not. it's my top choice in a good location and a cheap flight. from what i understand, 2nd looks are as meaningful as a college football team's head coach promising to stay.
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that sounds suspiciously like it influences the program's rank list, which they are specifically not allowed to imply.

Match Communication Code of Conduct
Declining to require second visits or visiting rotations
Program directors shall respect the logistical and financial burden many applicants face in pursuing multiple interactions with programs and shall not require them or imply that second visits are used in determining applicant placement on a rank order list.
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Currently zero for me as well. Sounds like a lot of hassle for the programs to actually get you in and have someone spend time showing you around and also not sure if they'd actually learn anything about me that would cause them to rank me any differently.
 
I think I'm going to do 1 at my top choice and depending on how that goes, maybe 1 at my second choice.
 
My top 3 are all around 1000 miles away from me. So ZERO for me :laugh:
 
Two of my interviewers and the PD both suggested i come for a second look. This is my top choice and I want them to know that. It would be easy for me to come in for a second look bcs I'm in the area and they mentioned that. I don't really have a reason not to except for the fact that id rather not risk putting my foot in my mouth and saying some stupid. What should I do? Would not coming look bad of all 3 told me to pass by?
 
emboli said:
How many do you guys plan on going to?

I'd love to schedule a second look for my top 4/5. Given it's close proximity, travel is no issue.
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went for a 2nd look today....on rounds one of the attending said that he was surprised i came back for a 2nd look during interview season and that most people do 2nd looks after interviews are all done....is this common knowledge? I didn't know this. Either way, I ended up telling him that today fit my schedule and left it at that.
 
Zero second looks. Maybe if I was in the same city as one of the programs I went to and I was bored I'd show up, but I'm not getting on anymore planes or taking any road trips until it's time to move for good.
 
NCI said:
Two of my interviewers and the PD both suggested i come for a second look. This is my top choice and I want them to know that. It would be easy for me to come in for a second look bcs I'm in the area and they mentioned that. I don't really have a reason not to except for the fact that id rather not risk putting my foot in my mouth and saying some stupid. What should I do? Would not coming look bad of all 3 told me to pass by?
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It seems that if they are communicating this to you that it may be a violation of the communication code of conduct (below); however, since this program is your top choice AND its in the city you are currently in (therefore the financial burden wil essentially be zero except perhaps for parking!), it would seem foolish for you not to go for a 2nd look.

Match Communication Code of Conduct
Declining to require second visits or visiting rotations
Program directors shall respect the logistical and financial burden many applicants face in pursuing multiple interactions with programs and shall not require them or imply that second visits are used in determining applicant placement on a rank order list.
Click to expand...
 
I am trying to set up a second look at a program I interviewed and i am not getting any resposnse back from PD and PC. What should i do? Should i bother? Anyone else have the same issue? How late can i set up a second look?
 
mellitus2 said:
I am trying to set up a second look at a program I interviewed and i am not getting any resposnse back from PD and PC. What should i do? Should i bother? Anyone else have the same issue? How late can i set up a second look?
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Did you call or email? If you only emailed, then I would call the coordination directly. I called a program on Monday of this week and we scheduled my 2nd look for this Friday. I think second looks can go all the way to beginning of feb.
 
I'm only going to 1 because its close by and it is one of my top, so might as well go and make sure it stays there. =)
 
I have done both called and e mailed. The RC say i have to set up with the PD and Pd say i have to set it up with RC.its going back and forth and noone is answering.
 
Not going to any of them, although I have received a few "invitations" to their second look.
 
After seeing the way the urology match turned out this year, if you have a school you really want to go to and have the means to do a second look, I would recommend really thinking about it.
 
armybound said:
After seeing the way the urology match turned out this year, if you have a school you really want to go to and have the means to do a second look, I would recommend really thinking about it.
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It couldn't have gone any worse than 2005 (when the lists were entered backwards and 260+, PhD, AOA folks weren't matching while borderline candidates were matching at the top places.

What was the issue this year? Just too many well qualified candidates and not enough spots?
 
gutonc said:
It couldn't have gone any worse than 2005 (when the lists were entered backwards and 260+, PhD, AOA folks weren't matching while borderline candidates were matching at the top places.

What was the issue this year? Just too many well qualified candidates and not enough spots?
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434 lists submitted for 279 spots, a 64% match rate.

maybe I'm just unusually concerned because I fell particularly far down my list and wonder if I didn't do enough to express interest in the programs I really liked.. There are also several stories of folks with match lists of 15 who failed to match. One guy I personally interviewed with at several very good schools who comes from a welll-respected medical school failed to match.

I also was a bit surprised to not match at a program that I did an away at and is in my home town (a small town that not many people are excited to live in) that I ranked #1 and told them I would be ranking #1. I thought I would surely be taken, but it went to someone who did a second look instead.
 
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armybound said:
434 lists submitted for 279 spots, a 64% match rate.

maybe I'm just unusually concerned because I fell particularly far down my list and wonder if I didn't do enough to express interest in the programs I really liked.. There are also several stories of folks with match lists of 15 who failed to match. One guy I personally interviewed with at several very good schools who comes from a welll-respected medical school failed to match.

I also was a bit surprised to not match at a program that I did an away at and is in my home town (a small town that not many people are excited to live in) that I ranked #1 and told them I would be ranking #1. I thought I would surely be taken, but it went to someone who did a second look instead.
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I doubt it had anything to do with second looks personally. If a program was more impressed by you spending a half day there than they were with the application summarizing the total of your work over the last 4+ years, that's their own problem.

I was curious if 64% was significant, so I went to the AUAs site and looked at historic match rates:

2012: 72%
2011: 79%
2010: 77%
2009: 69%
2008: 61%
2007: 69%
2006: 67%
2005: 67%
2004: 70%
2003: 64%

64% is tougher than the last 3-4 years, but by no means is it historically unprecedented. The only real variable in determining the match rate in a small specialty where almost all spots fill (like Urology) is the degree of applicant interest. Whether there are 339 applicants (such as in 2011) or 404 applicants (such as in 2008) is something that the programs have absolutely no control over. 434 is the highest interest that there's been, but I'm surprised PDs didn't realize that early in the season and give advice to their home students to the regard that they may want to consider backup plans as well.

(And, needless to say, it's impossible for every single specialty to have a dramatic increase in the number of applicants all at the same time, though with the increase in med school slots it is happening across the board at a slower rate. But this year, maybe since Urology is so much more competitive, ENT is less so. Or maybe by some fluke, more surgical subspecialty minded people got accepted to med school in 2009 and it's gen surg, or even family med, that's less competitive. Or maybe advisors across the country saw that urology was at a "less competitive than usual" peak last year and encouraged more people to apply.)

Edit: Just also wanted to say, those match rates are all for *total applicants* not US Seniors. As is the number quoted above from what I can tell. The match rate for US seniors is usually a good 6-10% higher than that.
 
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armybound said:
434 lists submitted for 279 spots, a 64% match rate.

maybe I'm just unusually concerned because I fell particularly far down my list and wonder if I didn't do enough to express interest in the programs I really liked.. There are also several stories of folks with match lists of 15 who failed to match. One guy I personally interviewed with at several very good schools who comes from a welll-respected medical school failed to match.

I also was a bit surprised to not match at a program that I did an away at and is in my home town (a small town that not many people are excited to live in) that I ranked #1 and told them I would be ranking #1. I thought I would surely be taken, but it went to someone who did a second look instead.
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Honestly, I struggled to even go to some interviews due to lack of vacation time. Did not want to risk making my attendings unhappy by being a no show on several days. I cancelled interviews due to time crunch. No time for second looks even though I was invited to my #1 site. They even offered to pay for lodging and gas money! Even though they said they do that all their applicants, I am not too sure about that. That would have been too much money!
 
Raryn said:
64% is tougher than the last 3-4 years, but by no means is it historically unprecedented. The only real variable in determining the match rate in a small specialty where almost all spots fill (like Urology) is the degree of applicant interest. Whether there are 339 applicants (such as in 2011) or 404 applicants (such as in 2008) is something that the programs have absolutely no control over. 434 is the highest interest that there's been, but I'm surprised PDs didn't realize that early in the season and give advice to their home students to the regard that they may want to consider backup plans as well.
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Historic or not, my advice from this year is you never know how many people will be vying for that spot at your top choice program, so I would recommend you let them know or do anything within reason to show interest in the program if that's where you really want to go.

I wasn't really trying to say anything more profound than just don't be too casual if there's a program you're serious about.
 
gutonc said:
It couldn't have gone any worse than 2005 (when the lists were entered backwards and 260+, PhD, AOA folks weren't matching while borderline candidates were matching at the top places.

What was the issue this year? Just too many well qualified candidates and not enough spots?
Click to expand...


😱

This really happened...??
 
I'm going on 1 to my probable number 1 to see the other hospital the residents work at since we didn't get to on the interview day. Also to check out the city and potential real estate, since it's hard to get a feel for that online.
 
Zero.


I may want a second look at the hotties in the local bar though 😉 :meanie:
 
Winged Scapula said:
Yep. Google it and you'll find the stories. I'm not sure that the lists were loaded backwards but essentially the top programs didn't match anyone so it was reran.
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I don't remember exactly what happened but lists were entered incorrectly by the AUA people and they had to go back and re-enter everyone's list and run it again. I had two M4s going into urology on service with me at the time and they were pissed.
 
gutonc said:
I don't remember exactly what happened but lists were entered incorrectly by the AUA people and they had to go back and re-enter everyone's list and run it again. I had two M4s going into urology on service with me at the time and they were pissed.
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I can't find any news articles about it anywhere, but from SDN:
teamdick said:
What the AUA told us applicants was that one of the "match safeguards" did not occur. What we were able to find out was that the match was run with different software by a new group of administrators this year. It appears as if the software did not use applicant preferences in the match, only the institution preferences. Therefore elite applicants who were ranked high by both top programs and "safer" programs produced most of the problems. Elite applicants matched at lower tier programs and the top notch programs, who usually rank fewer applicants, went unmatched. In the first match 8 spots were unfilled, and in the rematch all spots were filled. I would say that the majority of the people who matched ended up rematching at the same place. Some applicants moved up in the list. I have only heard of one person moving down. Unfortunately though, it appears as if a few people who originally matched ended up not matching at all.
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From the same thread, it sounds like the re-run of the match happened 3 days after the initial one. I can't even imagine...
 
Raryn said:
I can't find any news articles about it anywhere, but from SDN:


From the same thread, it sounds like the re-run of the match happened 3 days after the initial one. I can't even imagine...
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That sounds about right. And I'm not surprised you didn't find anything in the news. First, it's a pretty small specialty (<250 spots that year) and in the grand scheme of life it's pretty irrelevant. Plus...I imagine the AUA didn't exactly want to publicize it themselves.
 
I thought going to none was ok (which is what I've done) but I met an applicant at my last interview who asked for and went to 7 second looks. 7! That's a lot of money and travel all over again in my case. He said it's the one thing he could have done differently last year. He interviewed at and ranked 11 and didn't match. I've been doubtful since about not going for second looks..
 
In my opinion, 2nd looks are for the benefit of the applicant to decide their rank order list. I'm sure there may be a few programs where going for a second look may break a proverbial tie between two candidates but not going on a 2nd look is doubtful to be the reason for somebody not matching.
 
For those who did do second looks, how did you behave yourself?

I took on the role of an observer 95% of the time. In the other 5% of the time, the resident would try to involve me, which was nice I guess. Other than that, I just stood around with the team and paid attention in rounds.

I didn't really make any impressions nor did I try. This was totally appropriate right?? I was actually rounding with one of the program admins at the time too. Pretty unnerving..
 
I am going for my #1 second looks. They kept sending me personalized invites and this and that. I finally feel compelled to go back and visit. They are paying for gas and boarding, so I don't see why not. This is for a 3 hr get-together.
 
cheruka said:
I am going for my #1 second looks. They kept sending me personalized invites and this and that. I finally feel compelled to go back and visit. They are paying for gas and boarding, so I don't see why not. This is for a 3 hr get-together.
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They pay for gas? That's pretty awesome. I'd go.
 
emboli said:
For those who did do second looks, how did you behave yourself?

I took on the role of an observer 95% of the time. In the other 5% of the time, the resident would try to involve me, which was nice I guess. Other than that, I just stood around with the team and paid attention in rounds.

I didn't really make any impressions nor did I try. This was totally appropriate right?? I was actually rounding with one of the program admins at the time too. Pretty unnerving..
Click to expand...

That's how I was.
 
emboli said:
For those who did do second looks, how did you behave yourself?

I took on the role of an observer 95% of the time. In the other 5% of the time, the resident would try to involve me, which was nice I guess. Other than that, I just stood around with the team and paid attention in rounds.

I didn't really make any impressions nor did I try. This was totally appropriate right?? I was actually rounding with one of the program admins at the time too. Pretty unnerving..
Click to expand...

This is kind of the reason I don't want to do a second look lol I don't know what I should do. Is this a time for me to show how smart (or not!) I am? Should I stand back and watch? Should I leave everyone alone or ask lots of questions? Should I participate in the morning report or noon conference? I got plenty of advice that it hurts more than it helps, and as you can see by my neuroticism, I tend to think that advice is spot on.
 
for second look visits - did you guys wear a full suit or just shirt & tie? I think a full suit may be too formal.

Also, did anyone arrange a brief meeting with the PD during their second look?
 
cars321 said:
for second look visits - did you guys wear a full suit or just shirt & tie? I think a full suit may be too formal.

Also, did anyone arrange a brief meeting with the PD during their second look?
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Wear shirt w/ tie. Bring your white coat (you will round with a team).

Don't try to arrange a meeting with the PD. The 2nd look is just for you to get a feel for the day to day.. and not to rub elbows with any admin people. That's not to say you won't encounter the PD.. If you do, just say hi, intro yourself and leave it at that. If the PD offers to chit chat, then by all means, otherwise, leave it at that.

That was my experience. It worked out well. Just don't present yourself as overly aggressive. In my mind, you are there to observe and get a sense of what's it like. nothing more.
 
emboli said:
Wear shirt w/ tie. Bring your white coat (you will round with a team).

Don't try to arrange a meeting with the PD. The 2nd look is just for you to get a feel for the day to day.. and not to rub elbows with any admin people. That's not to say you won't encounter the PD.. If you do, just say hi, intro yourself and leave it at that. If the PD offers to chit chat, then by all means, otherwise, leave it at that.

That was my experience. It worked out well. Just don't present yourself as overly aggressive. In my mind, you are there to observe and get a sense of what's it like. nothing more.
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disagree on the white coat thing. thats ridiculous
 
wear what you wear to medicine work day normally

men: shirt and tie and dress shoes with white coat
yes you do round with the team

one guy showed up at my 2nd look today with a full blown suit on; needless to say he got laughed at
 
kjamess said:
disagree on the white coat thing. thats ridiculous
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Second look = Sitting in on didactic sessions + going on rounds. White coat is pretty much expected for the latter.
 
emboli said:
Second look = Sitting in on didactic sessions + going on rounds. White coat is pretty much expected for the latter.
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Yeah, wish I would have known this before my second look. For one second look, they told me to dress business casual and wore a blazer, but with another 2nd look they asked me if i had brought a white coat (which i had not)....but they had a white coat lying around so not really a big deal.
 
Raryn said:
I can't find any news articles about it anywhere, but from SDN:


From the same thread, it sounds like the re-run of the match happened 3 days after the initial one. I can't even imagine...
Click to expand...

This happened to some of my friends. One matched at a place where she didn't like and then re-matched at a place where she was happy. The other matched at a place she didn't like and then failed to match in the re-match. I would have hated to see their cortisol levels during this whole ordeal as they were all flipping out throughout.
 
didn't do any second looks (ran out of time/money), but did some away rotations
 
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