2yr program myths and facts?

[347932]

If you can't tell, I'm currently very frustrated with "the system" that is being forced right now.

I don't mean to sound bitter, because I'm not, but it seems like progress is difficult and trying to become involved is extremely difficult, even when "help is needed". It seems like they should say "specific help is needed as long as it is going to get things done my way" is what they should really be saying. I don't know...

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[Podfather]

I'm sorry but I call it as I see it certain situations. Unfortunately, calls for a shift in the paradigm are generally considered "subtle slams". There is a better way, and I would like things to change in that regard. With the current leadership at the helm it will be business as usual. Its interesting to me how this works. The helmers surround themselves with like minded people who they trained, and things continue on. I'm deeply involved with the APMA and the politics of our profession, as well as help run two organizations within our profession and have applied to serve on the ABPS as well as within the APMA. I volunteer a TREMENDOUS amount of my free time, which takes me away from my wife and three kids, so point the finger elsewhere please.

Currently leadership, committee members, and examiners are very diverse. Perhaps you should take a look. I congratulate you on giving your time. I truly respect those who do. I will not however let anyone imply some type of impropriety at ABPS or that they are a bunch of clones or yes men.
They give as equally as much as you do so at the very least please show them they same respect I have just given you. I am not trying to be curt but you can have a disagreement without implying leadership has some master plan to exclude. It is simply not the truth. You would be surprised when new people are asked to serve how many say no when they see the time commitment. I know you must see the same thing.

I'm also not sure you reviewed the exam recently, because the oral foot exam in 2008 had 4 GSW questions out of twelve. In 2002 when I took the RRA examination 50% of the examination had to do with CORA and Tibial Rotational and Transpositional surgical techniques.

You are simply wrong. It is impossible by the shear design of the exam for 4 questions on the Foot orals to be a gun shot wound and for 50% of the RRA qual to be CORA/tibial correction procedures. And yes I am aware of the 2008 exam. It is these type of statements that start urban legend and false rumors.

I hate to think that no motion is an expectation from any professional group. If that's the case, I will retreat to my daily routine and not worry about how our profession will survive in the future. If everyone is happy with the status quo and see no reason for progress, I'm out. Happily this is clearly NOT the case. I feel the need to push to get things progressing in a positive and fruitful direction. The "good old boys" mentally is lost on me at this point, sorry.

There has been considerable motion by the ABPS exam. The computer based exams, changes in the exam format, and yes plans for eventual changes. Many of the ideas for changes are similar to what you have discussed in prior posts. The exam process requires precise, gradual change. It must be investigated, researched, compared to others who are doing it that way now, and must be field tested. If not sudden shifts are unfair to the examinees if they have not been tested out and implemented gradually.

Your next post on the next page is more reasonable and understandable:

If you can't tell, I'm currently very frustrated with "the system" that is being forced right now.

I don't mean to sound bitter, because I'm not, but it seems like progress is difficult and trying to become involved is extremely difficult, even when "help is needed". It seems like they should say "specific help is needed as long as it is going to get things done my way" is what they should really be saying. I don't know


I understand some of your frustration since many times people are unaware of the process, hear urban legend, or blantant falsehoods. The ABPS does an incredible amount of work to create a process that is fair, field tested, and ensures that those passing meet a competancy to be certified. I am sure they would love for a 100% pass rate since it means more dues and participating members. However, they should not try to write an exam that 100% should pass. On the contrary the profession should work to train candidates that approach 100% pass rate.

As far as becoming involved, please do. There are a limited number of examiners and they are replaced as attrition occurs. Those examining with experience are a valuable asset since they have be evaluated multiple times each year and can be some of the best examiners. As they chose to leave or are rotated out new ones are added but in fixed amounts. You can imagine what would ensue with say 25% new examiners one year. It is easier to add someone who is both Foot and RRA certified since they can give both exams. With increasing numbers sitting for RRA ABPS need people who can give both over the weekend. This is for training purposes and cost.

For the Foot certified they can be added but then that requires bringing someone else in for RRA with additional cost. They are always looking for field testers and I would suggest this might be a place for someone like you to start. The committees are usually selected from those have examination experience for obvious reasons. There are limited positions in this organization unlike say APMA/ACFAS/ACFOAM and it can take years to be asked to serve. It took me close to a decade to be added as an examiner when attrition took several people out of the system.

Look PM and would be happy to give you advice as to how to become involved. I do not make the decisions but can give you insight as to the typical starting positions that open up and the way to pursue them. In the meantime keep helping the profession anyway you can. As someone who has given decades to multiple organizations and projects to help the profession it can be exhausting but when you see the incredible progress the profession or one of your residents has made it is a great feeling.

 

[347932]

On the contrary the profession should work to train candidates that approach 100% pass rate.
This is exactly what I'm driving at. Why are we graduating residents that can't pass a minimum competency examination? I can understand a 5% failure rate. Everyone has a bad day for sure. However, when there is a 30% failure rate on a consistent basis two things need to be investigated. The first is what are these residents learning in residency. The other is the examination itself. Unfortunately the disconnect of this occurs at the Organizational level. Do the CPME and ABPS collaborate in this regard? My understanding is that they don't. I've been wrong before, and I could be wrong again.

As far as becoming involved, please do. There are a limited number of examiners and they are replaced as attrition occurs. Those examining with experience are a valuable asset since they have be evaluated multiple times each year and can be some of the best examiners. As they chose to leave or are rotated out new ones are added but in fixed amounts. You can imagine what would ensue with say 25% new examiners one year. It is easier to add someone who is both Foot and RRA certified since they can give both exams. With increasing numbers sitting for RRA ABPS need people who can give both over the weekend. This is for training purposes and cost.
For the Foot certified they can be added but then that requires bringing someone else in for RRA with additional cost. They are always looking for field testers and I would suggest this might be a place for someone like you to start. The committees are usually selected from those have examination experience for obvious reasons. There are limited positions in this organization unlike say APMA/ACFAS/ACFOAM and it can take years to be asked to serve. It took me close to a decade to be added as an examiner when attrition took several people out of the system.

I submitted an app to become an examiner last year once I was able to. I was told that I may never be selected since I'm not Foot and RRA certified which I completely understand. I also know that my app is good for 5 years so I will patiently wait and if not selected until then, I will certainly re-apply.
I can tell you that I've met personally met with some of the board members in my travels and have been met with little interest. It feels like if you're not "in the loop" there is little likelihood of involvement. I've also seen who some of them select as successors, and there was little surprise that these people were added. I'm looking at this as an outsider and commenting on my experience. That's all. I will persist because that's what I do and realize time is my biggest ally in this regard.
I've been volunteering my time for almost a decade as well. Even though I'm a relatively new practitioner I've been involved for a very long time. Only now am I making the kind of head way that leads to change and I know it will take many more years to come. I'll be around. No question about that.

Thanks for the words. Encouragement and help from the more experienced is always welcomed and appreciated.

 

[347932]

I forgot to ask what a "Field Tester" is? Please elaborate.

 

[Podfather]

I forgot to ask what a "Field Tester" is? Please elaborate.

The exam is field tested twice each year. This process checks flow, content, and helps in question selection. The first is by typically experienced members. The last field test usually is newer examiners and recently examined members who passed. It helps with the final selection of questions and serves as one final proof.

In regards to the profession. I would venture to say that some people who are selected by the schools should not have been and they will have difficulties passing any exam. Just take a look at some school's records with national board 1 and 2 taken while in school.

Next, let's face it, regardless of the years of training some residencies just do not prepare residents enough to practice or pass the boards. I would venture there are programs whose graduates have consistently lower pass rates. That might be a good question to ask a program. That and job placement.

Seriously PM me if you want advice on getting involved with ABPS.

 

[347932]

PM sent.

 

[Podfather]

PM sent.

I sent 2 back but my outbox shows empty. Let me know if you receive them

 

[347932]

I sent 2 back but my outbox shows empty. Let me know if you receive them

Got them thanks. Thanks for the advice too. Its very much appreciated.

 

[Feli]

...Next, let's face it, regardless of the years of training some residencies just do not prepare residents enough to practice or pass the boards. I would venture there are programs whose graduates have consistently lower pass rates. That might be a good question to ask a program. That and job placement.

Seriously PM me if you want advice on getting involved with ABPS.

Has there ever been talk of publishing residency by residency historical pass rates as I alluded to Am Board of Surg and other specialty boards doing earlier in this thread? It would be seriously useful info for good students looking at programs.

 

[Podfather]

Has there ever been talk of publishing residency by residency historical pass rates as I alluded to Am Board of Surg and other specialty boards doing earlier in this thread? It would be seriously useful info for good students looking at programs.

Unfortunately this is not available. All of the directors have access to the in-training results by resident and the pass rate of the graduates who sat for the ABPS exams (BQ and Certification). For the exam names are not available nor when they graduated. You would have ask that question and hope the director checks this data an is being truthful. The problem wih the pass rate is if you have one individual who keeps taking the exam unsuccessfully over and over they can skew the results. Say only 2 sit this year and the one fails bam 50% pass rate . With 4 a 75%. Our program has a historically high pass rate but we have a couple of ex-residents (who were a bit lazy as residents and I suspect have the same work ethic now) who are sitting now. One is in the second BQ. So our rate is lower than the usual 100% this 3 year grouping.

However, there are certain programs that have very high failure rates year after year. I believe this data should be listed on their CASPR web stats. But the powers to be do not. Whether it's the education or the quality of student that the program attracts one can not be certain. Another very interesting statistic would be pass rates by school. Doubt you would see that anytime soon.

Job placement with average starting salary would be another stat that would be helpful. Perhaps a student group could create a survey and forward it to programs????

 

[347932]

Unfortunately this is not available. All of the directors have access to the in-training results by resident and the pass rate of the graduates who sat for the ABPS exams (BQ and Certification). For the exam names are not available nor when they graduated. You would have ask that question and hope the director checks this data an is being truthful. The problem wih the pass rate is if you have one individual who keeps taking the exam unsuccessfully over and over they can skew the results. Say only 2 sit this year and the one fails bam 50% pass rate . With 4 a 75%. Our program has a historically high pass rate but we have a couple of ex-residents (who were a bit lazy as residents and I suspect have the same work ethic now) who are sitting now. One is in the second BQ. So our rate is lower than the usual 100% this 3 year grouping.

However, there are certain programs that have very high failure rates year after year. I believe this data should be listed on their CASPR web stats. But the powers to be do not. Whether it's the education or the quality of student that the program attracts one can not be certain. Another very interesting statistic would be pass rates by school. Doubt you would see that anytime soon.

Job placement with average starting salary would be another stat that would be helpful. Perhaps a student group could create a survey and forward it to programs????

Wow man. I seriously thought this info was readily available to anyone. It really should be. Is there a way to petition for the addition of this? This would give students and residents, as well as the CPME a clearer idea of what is really important in a residency. You can have the best educational facilities and biggest number of attendings out there, but if the residents can't pass the needed requirements to enter into practice successfully, that speaks volumes. I alluded to this in another post/thread. What's more important, the size if the library at a program or how many residents can get through the ABPS Q and C examinations (for the most part)?

I am against the job placement and starting salary bit though. If you go into practice for yourself, that will skew the data big time.

 

[krabmas]

these are all questions that are great to ask during externships and during interviews when they ask... "what other questions do you have?"

It could also be a great job for the APMSA to get started on - a survey. Or they could pass a resolution to support the CPME/COTH in making this information available.

 

[Podfather]

these are all questions that are great to ask during externships and during interviews when they ask... "what other questions do you have?"

It could also be a great job for the APMSA to get started on - a survey. Or they could pass a resolution to support the CPME/COTH in making this information available.

Statistics on surgical volume and diversity. Name blacked out copies of the RRC logs. A copy of the academic and rotation schedule. Names of past graduates in leadership roles.