Hey all, so after my junior year I will be around a 3.2 GPA. My freshman year was a 2.89 (2.69, 3.5), sophomore year 2.81 (2.23, 3.5), and junior year 3.7 (3.8,3.5). My nextstep first two MCATs were 511 and 512. I know these are said to be typically easier than the real deal so I am very optimistic! I have 150 community service hours, 40 hours OR, 1.5 years research experience, overseas medical volunteering, 2 years of being a big pal to a special needs boy, and 4 years of division 1 athletics. My GPA really tells a story of my journey. First semester freshman year just being a new college student with distractions. First semester sophomore year was my first time traveling with the team and playing in my sport and that greatly impacted my grades. Basically, I want to know if I even have a chance and if it is worth it for me. Any advice is appreciated!
3.2 GPA projected 512 MCAT
- Thread starter JoshH
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What’s your sGPA? Where do you live? URM?
Your ECs are very weak. You seem to have no clinical experience in the US. You need at least 150+ hours of clinical experience.(Leave your over seas stuff off of your application.). You also need some primary care shadowing. You already know your cGPA is very low for MD ( average is 3.7+)so you need to apply to some DO schools too. Come back when you get your MCAT score and people will be glad to help you with a list. Get to work on the big gaps in your ECs. Good luck on the MCAT.
Your ECs are very weak. You seem to have no clinical experience in the US. You need at least 150+ hours of clinical experience.(Leave your over seas stuff off of your application.). You also need some primary care shadowing. You already know your cGPA is very low for MD ( average is 3.7+)so you need to apply to some DO schools too. Come back when you get your MCAT score and people will be glad to help you with a list. Get to work on the big gaps in your ECs. Good luck on the MCAT.
sGPA- 3.22, slightly higher. Would you say working as a phlebotomist counts as clinical hours? I had 500 hours and around 1000 needle sticks. Also, I am shadowing clinic and OR under an orthopedic surgeon this summer for a total of around 120 hours. The overseas volunteering trip will consist of around 100 hours OR under some rough conditions. Would it be beneficial at all to have an overseas doc write a short letter of rec? Or even just document hours?
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I’m glad about the clinical hours. You need some primary care shadowing. The ortho is fine but you should get some primary care. You really only need around 50 hours of shadowing total. Experiences in foreign countries are not looked at positively by ADCOMS. Many consider it Voluntourism. So you should really just not even include it. As to a letter from an overseas doc I don’t think it will help you. Most MD programs don't require a letter from any doc so they are pretty useless. If you are applying DO( and you really need to apply DO) you need a letter from a DO. So if you haven’t shadowed a DO Find one and then get a letter. That would be a good way to get some primary care shadowing.
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Wtf? This is terrible advice. Definitely, 100%, include your overseas experience. It's something that you have that many others don't. Jeez. I'm glad I read this out of curiosity. Holy S*^%, that would have sucked if you didn't include it. Candbgirl is a 10+ year member, so I respect the other input though. Just make sure you are able to talk about that experience in terms of how it impacted your decision to pursue medicine and/or any life lessons gained from it.
In terms of the letter, it depends. Some schools accept 10 and some accept 3. As long as you know that he/she will write you a really good letter then, I would send it to the schools that you have room to send an extra letter. That's what I did for my physician letters. It's just 'common sense' really.
Now to the fun stuff. Your GPA is concerning. Very concerning actually, so your MCAT will thus be the determining factor. I would have to agree with Candbgirl in this aspect. Also, you might want to stay away from saying that you struggled freshman year because of distractions (AKA. PARTYING AND DRINKING). Don't be stupid. Focus on your MCAT. Apply to DO if that's what you want, but I think if you get the MCAT score that you are projecting, continue to display the upward trend, perhaps take a postbac (if you can afford it), and share a valid and wonderful story about your life experiences, you'll have decent odds for your in-state MD school. It all depends on your MCAT, writing skills, and determination. I can't stress enough how important your writing will be if you want to stand a chance.
Good luck,
Jade
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f--venture
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Hi! Thanks for providing lots of detail! You'll definitely want to explain changes in GPA in your essays - there's always the optional essay and they usually like to see you talk about a time you struggled, what you did to overcome that struggle, and how you became resilient. That being said, you want to knock your MCAT out of the park so you can demonstrate that your lower GPA truly was a product of a hectic environment. Overseas volunteering is phenomenal - I went to Nigeria for a medical mission and I had SO many amazing things to talk about in my essays so definitely elaborate on those experiences every chance you get! To counter some of this other feedback, your clinical shadowing and volunteering are perfectly acceptable. Your focus should now be MCAT, senior year GPA, essays on your experience, and rec letters from folks who have seen you grow during your college career. If you don't have actual job experience in healthcare, I would suggest using this year to be a part time, be an ER tech, or continue doing overseas medical work. You totally have a chance so I would 100% go for it. Good luck!
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What possible harm could it do? If this is your way of online sabotage, then you guys have serious issues.
I'm glad I only found these forums after I got in. A lot of people here are terrible.
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I'm sorry but what qualifications does OP have to be contributing to an overseas medical trip?
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Qualifications? ? ? Are you serious? You must be trolling or incredibly stuck up.
In case you didn’t know, many schools have programs that expose potential medical professionals to the medical field in less fortunate areas. My school took some students to countries like Chile, Haiti, and Ghana for for 2 weeks. ALL Medical schools also do global outreach as well, so I don’t see what’s so ‘alarming’ about an undergraduate exploring this avenue of health care so early in their career. There’s nothing wrong with going overseas. It is a wonderful and valid experience to be able to see how professionals in other countries deal with healthcare.
Don’t be rude. Use some common sense.
Good bye,
Jade
Thank you for the long reply!! I really appreciate it. I am planning on including overseas medial volunteering and the different backgrounds I’ve been exposed to through college sports in my diversity statement 🙂
Thank you! I know it’s gonna be tough, but I am willing to put in the work to make up for my GPA!Hi! Thanks for providing lots of detail! You'll definitely want to explain changes in GPA in your essays - there's always the optional essay and they usually like to see you talk about a time you struggled, what you did to overcome that struggle, and how you became resilient. That being said, you want to knock your MCAT out of the park so you can demonstrate that your lower GPA truly was a product of a hectic environment. Overseas volunteering is phenomenal - I went to Nigeria for a medical mission and I had SO many amazing things to talk about in my essays so definitely elaborate on those experiences every chance you get! To counter some of this other feedback, your clinical shadowing and volunteering are perfectly acceptable. Your focus should now be MCAT, senior year GPA, essays on your experience, and rec letters from folks who have seen you grow during your college career. If you don't have actual job experience in healthcare, I would suggest using this year to be a part time, be an ER tech, or continue doing overseas medical work. You totally have a chance so I would 100% go for it. Good luck!
-Lauren
Just an update... I want to be able to include my medical volunteering trip in my personal statement and diversity letters. That being said, my applications would then be submitted around July 20th. Is that too late? I take my MCAT June 29th, so I guess I do not have a choice and have to apply late... Is that too late for MD and DO schools? I appreciate any advice.
f--venture
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Not too late but if you end up having to reapply next year, definitely get everything in as early as possible. I'm way neurotic about this so I had everything done by mid May. All Texas secondaries were done by June 1st. All other secondaries were done within a week of invitation. I had an interview as early as AUGUST and my GPA was way less competitive than yours. So I really encourage people to apply right out of the gate. However! July is not terrible. Just be sure to submit things as soon as you're able and make those essays as stellar as possible. You wanna stand out! 🙂
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I’ll be a little of a Debbie downer and say that you probably shouldn’t apply until you’re ready. That’s coming from someone that applied in mid AUGUST. I was REALLY LUCKY to get in my first time around, but I am the exception not the rule. I also had good medically related ECs and life experience, so unless you have something really interesting that sets you apart from the competitive crowd, I would advise not applying late. Here’s a link to a video by med insiders that discusses this topic. Do not aim to become a reapplicant.
Good luck!
Jade
Good luck!
Jade
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Also, do not underestimate secondaries! They count just as much as your primaries! If your secondaries suck, then you probably won’t get in. You don’t want to be in the stressed position that I was in. I took my secondaries very seriously, and so it took me longer than expected to complete them. Be prepared for this. Everyone on here seems to neglect how difficult and stressful the secondaries actually are. So when you’re applying in late July, you may not receive them until early August. Keep that in mind.
Jade
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For those of you who don't understand medical school admissions, we view overseas missions as medical tourism. That's a term I picked up from a pathologist colleague of mine.
The problem we have with these missions are several fold. One, people do things that are an ethical here in the US, such as do medical procedures on patients without adequate training and or supervision.
Two, they displace workers in the field who could actually use the employment.
3, people are also less than honest about what they do. Many people simply just take a vacation to the old country and simply lie about doing medical work, or shadowing.
Overall the purpose of these trips is about the burnishing the CVS of the people who take them, not about patients.
The problem we have with these missions are several fold. One, people do things that are an ethical here in the US, such as do medical procedures on patients without adequate training and or supervision.
Two, they displace workers in the field who could actually use the employment.
3, people are also less than honest about what they do. Many people simply just take a vacation to the old country and simply lie about doing medical work, or shadowing.
Overall the purpose of these trips is about the burnishing the CVS of the people who take them, not about patients.
f--venture
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So I can understand this perspective to an extent. However, I've done a cardio thoracic surgical mission in Nigeria and I'm going to Guatemala for another mission in 2 weeks. The organizations coordinating these missions request your licenses before allowing you to assume any role on the missions. I can understand that some organizations aren't as thorough and allow folks without proper credentials to perform procedures they shouldn't. But this shouldn't be generalized to all missions or groups.
It's unfair to generalize that all missions are seen as medical tourism. Medical missions (in the true sense of the term) are grueling and there's no time for tourism because of how busy you are providing care. I take my own vacation time from work, pay for the fees and airfare to attend, get vaccines and visas for travel without reimbursement, and I do all of that because of my dedication to being a person for others. Our missions are only 1-2 weeks and we train local staff how to provide better medical care so it certainly does not take away jobs in that respect.
Anyways this is officially a tangent but as someone who's been in the trenches doing the hardcore medical work overseas, I think it's unfair to judge all missions as medical tourism. I think a student's essays will provide a good idea of what exactly a student accomplished on these missions and ADCOMS should remain open minded about this.
I agree that in the worst case scenario, medical missions are as you described. Any students reading this who have participated on missions, please be honest with yourself and others about the work you do if you go on these missions. Do not include this in your applications if you cannot go into vivid detail about the work you did and how it benefitted others. Do not do procedures you're not trained to do or without supervision. That being said, it is great experience and you really learn how to think critically under pressure and with limited resources. Please feel free to reach out with questions.
-Lauren
It's unfair to generalize that all missions are seen as medical tourism. Medical missions (in the true sense of the term) are grueling and there's no time for tourism because of how busy you are providing care. I take my own vacation time from work, pay for the fees and airfare to attend, get vaccines and visas for travel without reimbursement, and I do all of that because of my dedication to being a person for others. Our missions are only 1-2 weeks and we train local staff how to provide better medical care so it certainly does not take away jobs in that respect.
Anyways this is officially a tangent but as someone who's been in the trenches doing the hardcore medical work overseas, I think it's unfair to judge all missions as medical tourism. I think a student's essays will provide a good idea of what exactly a student accomplished on these missions and ADCOMS should remain open minded about this.
I agree that in the worst case scenario, medical missions are as you described. Any students reading this who have participated on missions, please be honest with yourself and others about the work you do if you go on these missions. Do not include this in your applications if you cannot go into vivid detail about the work you did and how it benefitted others. Do not do procedures you're not trained to do or without supervision. That being said, it is great experience and you really learn how to think critically under pressure and with limited resources. Please feel free to reach out with questions.
-Lauren
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Your advice in bold is sound, but the problem we Adcoms face is that we can't tell which are honest-to-Gawd worthwhile trips, and those that are "voluntourism".
I have also found that in interviews, most interviewees who have gone on missions do not speak of them with any passion...which further entrenches my notion that the trips were done for CV polishing.
I don't have the link handly, but the wise @gonnif does, stating that many med schools and/or AAMC state on their admissions websites that they devalue medical missions
.
f--venture
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That's a fair point, I can totally see your perspective - especially if all you have to go off of initially is an extracurriculars section of an AMCAS application. So that makes sense to me. I do think it's unfortunate that ADCOMs aren't at least a little more curious. For example, if I were in your position and an interviewee with medical mission experience was sitting in front of me, I would certainly have them go into significant detail on their experiences. Maybe you do, but from what I read it sounds like it's automatically discounted entirely.
I think it's also still a gray area because I've spoken with ADCOM members about this specifically and they have told me that mission experience gives students with lower GPAs an advantage over others without mission experience. I feel like every committee probably has their own unique take on this.
I like how you mentioned that the folks who do missions don't speak passionately about them so it's a red flag for ADCOMs. I think that's a really great point. I think the takeaway from this is if you decide to do medical missions, just reflect on WHY you're doing it. It should be for the right reasons rather than just polishing your resumes. That's obvious to me but maybe not for others. Because ultimately, Goro has it right, ADCOMs can smell unauthentic actions from a mile away.
Personally, I choose medical missions as a form of giving back because I don't have as much time throughout the year to commit to something regularly (ex: monthly volunteering at a free clinic). So medical missions are my way of blocking out dedicated time for some hardcore volunteering. It's been a fantastic experience. I encourage others to do it if your heart is in it - it's not glamorous or easy in the slightest. It's eye-opening on a personal level but also gives you a unique view on the downfalls in healthcare delivery.
So Goro, my question for you is this: if students do in fact go on medical missions, the work they're doing is determined to be legitimate and ethical, and they participate for all of the right reasons - what would you expect to see on their applications, in their essays, and in their interviews? What do you see as an authentic way to demonstrate passion for completing overseas medical missions? What would lend legitimacy to this experience in the eyes of an admissions committee?
This was a super helpful discussion and I definitely took away a lot from this. Thanks again for your input!!
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I'd expect to see what they got out of the experience, and some passion about it. Alas, most people simply talk about how eye opening developing world poverty is.
People who on extended missions (like over two weeks) tend to have far better answers.
A caveat: one will also face the attitude of "there's plenty of people who need help here in the US"
f--venture
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Sure, that makes sense. Elaboration would obviously be key in your discussion. I'm not sure extended missions necessarily means better answers but those applicants certainly might have more to talk about. I will say Nigeria is not a vacation spot so if someone looked at my application and assumed voluntourism was occuring, I would have a lot of words for them. Medical missions in other more developed countries might be harder to make a case for in that respect.
Your caveat is a good point to consider. However, poverty in the US is riches in third world countries so "people need help in the US too," while true, is a completely different realm of volunteering and a completely different level of eye-opening. A well rounded premedical student will have already done many volunteering activities to help out people in the US so there's no reason they couldn't spend 1-2 weeks overseas helping those with zero access to healthcare. I think students who go out of their way, and pay out of pocket to help out overseas, are just further demonstrating their sense of duty and commitment to medicine. Because they could stay in the US and do easier volunteer work helping American citizens, but instead they're going a step beyond.
Just my thoughts. Thanks again for a great discussion!
Lauren
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@JoshH
Lots of lively conversation here about your medical trip, but can't forget the pesky GPA!
Have you considered taking a gap year? That would allow you to:
(1) Raise your GPA into a more competitive area
(2) Establish a more concrete upward trend
(3) Address any concerns about a lack of clinical experience
Good luck on your MCAT!
Lots of lively conversation here about your medical trip, but can't forget the pesky GPA!
Have you considered taking a gap year? That would allow you to:
(1) Raise your GPA into a more competitive area
(2) Establish a more concrete upward trend
(3) Address any concerns about a lack of clinical experience
Good luck on your MCAT!
Classic SDN poster. Says "dont be rude" then subsequently paints their own argument as "common sense" in attempt to deflect criticism.
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I genuinely believed that everyone knew that most universities took their students on overseas health missions without the need for being a medical professional. Don’t take what I said out of context. I wasn’t making an ‘argumeny’ And I wasn’t ‘deflecting’. I believed that I was informing the previous poster about a common practice.
I guess not?
-Jade
P.S. I wasn’t trying to start an argument. I just didn’t want OP to take what I believe to be was bad advice! Good luck to you all.
That is the exact reason why medical mission trips are seen as superfluous. They are essentially vacations for premeds where they often act out of their acceptable scope because they are in a third world country (e.g a premed assisting in surgery). These trips also often degrade the local economies.
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[-- PRE-MED OVERSEAS EXPEREINCE --]
Lets talk about it here and not get heated over some OP's WAMC thread.
forums.studentdoctor.net
Yes, I have thought about a gap year. I hope I do not have to, but I am not blind to the fact that it is likely. I finished out this semester raising my big oops Freshman-year molecular biology course (senior level, poor advising) from a D to an A. I know this does not replace the grade, but I believe it would show maturity in the classroom. With my hardest semester in college, taking 18 credits, I achieved a 3.8 to cap the year off (pesky physics smh..).
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According to the GPA/MCAT grid, with a 3.2 GPA and a 511 MCAT, applicants like you have a 30-40% chance of being accepted. However, not all 3.2/511’s are created equal.
You have an upward trend and college athletics working in your favor. I think your clinical experience as a phlebotomist and shadowing are good, but some time with a primary care DO could be very helpful (assuming you are willing to go DO).
I have similar stats as you but with a downward trend and without college athletics. The strength of our ECs is about equal. FWIW, I did not apply but worked full time in EMS after graduating, got about 2/3 done with an SMP and will be applying this cycle. You’ll want to consider that some fraction of the “Low GPA” people that are accepted have completed an SMP or performed some other magic after graduating college. They almost definitely applied early.
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