3.72 GPA, 35 MCAT, and red flags :(

[homerunhitter7]

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Hey all, as stated in my title I believe I completed undergrad with a very solid GPA and MCAT score. My main issue is I made some very poor decisions during my sophmore year in regards to alcohol. I was written up as being in the presence of alcohol twice, have one consumption of alcohol on my record, and finally was caught using a fake ID. I had this expunged from my record, but my school was notified of it so I must mention it as well. I had a perfectly clean record before this and have stayed out of trouble following this string of stupid actions. I applied to 17 medical schools this semester and did not receive a single II. Here are the schools I applied to:

Albany Medical School
Emory University School of Medicine
Florida State University
Georgetown University School of Medicine
Indiana
Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine
Michigan State University
New York Medical College
Oakland University
Rosalind Franklin
Rush
St. Louis University
Toledo
Tufts
Tulane
UIC
UNC

Here are my ECs:

50 hours church volunteering
60 hours searching databases for undergraduate research
90 hours emergency room volunteer
poker

I felt my poker playing differentiates me as an applicant as I spent much of my "free" time during undergrad playing poker to pay for my studies. I was able to pay for my undergraduate education this way but it resulted in the rest of my extra curriculars being much weaker.

So my main question is: Is there any hope for me? Do I have any chance of being accepted as a re-applicant with my red flags? One of my friends mentioned that she works as an emergency tech and that it is providing her with countless valuable clinical hours. Is this a good way to strengthen my ECs or should I focus on further volunteering and shadowing? Thanks for all/any help. It is greatly appreciated as I take a sobering realistic look at my future's prospects.

 

[rodmichael82]

If it was expunged from your record you DO NOT have to report it regardless of what your school knows or says. The final say is by the court not your school.
It would be advisable to NOT disclose the fake id use since that is a major red flag. Medical schools are all about integrity and any violation of that is a major issue. The drinking part is really minor and most medical schools will most likely ignore that. There are medical students that get drunk in public, it might not be common but things happen.

 

[homerunhitter7]

I don't know how these things work, but I assume these things must be reported because medical schools can gain your transcripts and see what sort of trouble you have gotten into. The fake ID occurred at a campus bar and I had to meet with the Dean and everything. I assume this means it is also in my transcripts.

 

[DrMidlife]

I see two problems, before the legal issues come in.

1. Sounds like your app was late. What do you mean you applied "this semester"? In general an MD app that's complete in June is early, July is okay, August is late and September is a total waste of time and money.

2. Your school list does not look well-researched. You have a whole bunch of public state schools on that list that have heavy preference for their own state's premeds. So you basically only applied to 12 schools.

I suggest you should seek not-entirely-friendly "adult supervision" for your next application round, because your idea that poker is a good thing to talk about in a med school app says you don't know enough about the people (conservative doctor-educators) between you and a med school acceptance. Your narrative says "gambler who fakes ID's". Would you pick you to go to med school?

Best of luck to you.

 

[gyngyn]

If it was expunged from your record you DO NOT have to report it regardless of what your school knows or says. The final say is by the court not your school.
It would be advisable to NOT disclose the fake id use since that is a major red flag. Medical schools are all about integrity and any violation of that is a major issue. The drinking part is really minor and most medical schools will most likely ignore that. There are medical students that get drunk in public, it might not be common but things happen.

Even "expunged" records must be reported. They are never really gone and failure to report is a much bigger problem. This can turn up when he is cleared for service at a hospital shortly after matriculation. Hospitals affiliated with government (local federal or state) have broad access to criminal records including expunged or minor offenses.

In this case there is even greater likelihood that failure to report will harm the OP in that the offense became part of his school record. If someone in the admin mentions it in any letter or communication (to explain or help him) and he has not reported it, he's toast.

 

[homerunhitter7]

I see two problems, before the legal issues come in.

1. Sounds like your app was late. What do you mean you applied "this semester"? In general an MD app that's complete in June is early, July is okay, August is late and September is a total waste of time and money.

2. Your school list does not look well-researched. You have a whole bunch of public state schools on that list that have heavy preference for their own state's premeds. So you basically only applied to 12 schools.

I suggest you should seek not-entirely-friendly "adult supervision" for your next application round, because your idea that poker is a good thing to talk about in a med school app says you don't know enough about the people (conservative doctor-educators) between you and a med school acceptance. Your narrative says "gambler who fakes ID's". Would you pick you to go to med school?

Best of luck to you.

1. Sorry, meant to say I applied this cycle. I took the MCAT July 14th, so my app was finished in mid-late August.

2. I'm from Illinois (just for reference). FSU and UNC weren't ideal, but they were eseentially "reach" schools for me. What other choices were poor, and are there any schools you would recommend?

Yea, it was definitely a gamble to include it 😛 After talking to my pre-med adviser, I chose to include it because it differentiated my application and effectively explained some of the weaknesses of my app. My family was unable to afford to pay for my tuition and I couldn't take out enough loans myself, so I played poker and graduated debt free. I tried to stress the difficulty of succeeding in the poker world, the skills necessary for success, and how this can help me in the medical profession. I also thought it portrayed that I wasn't in this for the money, as I already have a fairly substantial source of income.

I can definitely see your side of the argument and think it will be wise to follow your advice as you are where I hope to be 🙂 Should I focus on my essays on my experience as a re-applicant? Basically how I responded to adversity and created a plan to achieve my plans?

 

[BenzylAcetate]

You've obviously got the work ethic and capability to be successful in medical school based on your GPA and MCAT score, that alone is a great place to start.

Not entirely sure how the alcohol issues will effect your application. It sounds like the first two were entirely handled by the school and third may have been an actual police issue. Although they it doesn't help, I think there were other deficits in your application that caused more of an issue.

Your ECs are weak, plain and simple. I understand it's because you were working as a poker pro at the time, unfortunately the majority of the world doesn't understand or appreciate the statistical analysis that goes into evaluating an appropriate 3-bet range vs. various UTG/MP/Button opening ranges and will most likely view your time commitment to poker negatively. On the plus side, this gives you an opportunity to print money, you just can't really talk about it much without sounding like a degenerate.

I wont say to completely avoid taking about poker, but definitely don't make it the center piece of your application. If you played online primarily, say that you worked as a professional gamer and were paid to play an online game. Talk about the valuable lessons like scheduling and reviewing past work that you put in to maintain your success as well as how these traits will benefit you in medical school.

As far as ECs go, there are 6 categories you should have some time commitment with; leadership, teaching, clinical volunteering, non-clinical volunteering, and research. Each of these doesn't need to be an activity of its own, but you should have some experience in each category. Longevity of commitment (1+ years) is just as important as the actual time dedicated. My 200 hours of ER volunteering was looked upon more favorably than my 300+ hours of actual work in a hospital simply because it was over a longer time period (1 year vs 3 months).

Most of your activities seem to be shorter stints and don't seem to hit on teaching or leadership. If you can increase the time commitments and spin them in such a way that they do, that will help tremendously.

Edit: Also shadowing, you absolutely need some physician shadowing.

 

[homerunhitter7]

Thanks for the detailed reply! It seems to me that finding a way to tutor high school/college courses may be a good way to cover some of those areas. My ER volunteering was over 1.5 yrs the issue was actually getting hours, which is why I am considering becoming a tech or something to put in a ton of hours in these next few months. Where would this actual hospital work fit in? It's not volunteering, but would it count towards clinical EC?

 

[BenzylAcetate]

Thanks for the detailed reply! It seems to me that finding a way to tutor high school/college courses may be a good way to cover some of those areas. My ER volunteering was over 1.5 yrs the issue was actually getting hours, which is why I am considering becoming a tech or something to put in a ton of hours in these next few months. Where would this actual hospital work fit in? It's not volunteering, but would it count towards clinical EC?

Anytime you are around, or working with, patients it's considered clinical. The most important aspect is how you describe the experience. Also, don't necessarily pick something just to check off boxes (not saying this is the case). If you would possibly consider tutoring as something to spend your time doing, even if you weren't applying to medical school, then it will be a much more rewarding and pleasant experience.

 

[Goro]

Your ECs are on the weak side....unimpressive, really.

Despite records being expunged, the app still asks about IAs. You could take the risk that no one will lout you, but you afford to do so? Even a LOR writer might mention something innocuous like "homerun has does exceptionally since his infractions and s/he learned his/her lesson".

You will be asked about them and you're going to have to own them. I suspect that enough time has passed that you can get in somewhere, if you can improve on the ECs,

That aside, invest in MSAR and when you aim for public OOS schools, pick one that will be friendly to OOS applicants. State schools favor the home team.




Albany Medical School
Emory University School of Medicine
Florida State University
Georgetown University School of Medicine
Indiana
Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine
Michigan State University
New York Medical College
Oakland University
Rosalind Franklin
Rush
St. Louis University
Toledo
Tufts
Tulane
UIC
UNC

Here are my ECs:

50 hours church volunteering
60 hours searching databases for undergraduate research
90 hours emergency room volunteer
poker

I felt my poker playing differentiates me as an applicant as I spent much of my "free" time during undergrad playing poker to pay for my studies. I was able to pay for my undergraduate education this way but it resulted in the rest of my extra curriculars being much weaker.

So my main question is: Is there any hope for me? Do I have any chance of being accepted as a re-applicant with my red flags? One of my friends mentioned that she works as an emergency tech and that it is providing her with countless valuable clinical hours. Is this a good way to strengthen my ECs or should I focus on further volunteering and shadowing? Thanks for all/any help. It is greatly appreciated as I take a sobering realistic look at my future's prospects.[/QUOTE]

 

[roguetwelve12]

To top off what the above have said, many schools will examine re-applicants and compare their applications from one year to the next to evaluate what the applicant has done to improve their application. If you all of the sudden do not report infractions that were reported previously, schools will know, and you are toast. Schools are also increasingly performing detailed background checks. Long story short, definitely report. Don't take the chance.

Volunteering is the single best thing you can do to improve your application. But if it's something you're getting paid for (e.g., paid tutoring) don't list it as volunteering. That's a deathblow for an application. As above mentioned, shadowing is vital.

Mention poker as something "different" about you, but really really really shouldn't make that the centerpiece of your application... I know you're looking at it as saying "I had to work hard to get through college because I didn't have money", but 1) Most people don't have money in college and take out loans and 2) if your application is put up against somebody who worked 3 jobs to get through college without loans, your application loses.

Apologies if any of this seems harsh. Just trying to show the committee's point of view.

 

[dyspareunia]

Not sure why you would mention poker at all. It's a hobby more than anything, unless you were actually a professional player. Plus, most people don't see poker as a set of skills so trying to spin it that way won't work in most cases.

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't know who advised you to write about playing poker in your PS, but it was very bad advice. Oh, your poker playing differentiates you as an applicant all right: as an applicant with a potential gambling problem. Add to that your known history of problems with alcohol and fake IDs, and is it still really a mystery that you aren't getting any IIs?

I understand that you worked hard to put yourself through school, and you want to explain why your ECs are weak. But substitute "stripper" for "poker player," and hopefully you can see where those of us who are on the other side are coming from when we say that this is not the image of yourself that you want to present to adcoms. Sure, it's legal to do either of those jobs, but both are the kinds of activities that many people consider to be concerning at best and downright immoral at worst. You already look like someone with ethical/maturity issues because of your alcohol-related problems. Don't go handing out extra rounds of ammunition for people to shoot you with when you're already in the unenviable position of having to give them that loaded gun.

Where to go from here:
1) For sure, you need to beef up your ECs. You can continue with the same non-poker ECs (church, ED volunteering, research) you already have if you like them, or you can do something new. But either way, give the poker a rest and get a regular, 9-5 job this year. Preferably something that involves you having to provide customer service, manage other employees, or both.
2) Rewrite your PS. The PS should answer the question, "why medicine?" It is not a story about how you paid your way through college. The adcom is using that essay to help decide whether they would want you to be a future colleague. You want that essay to prove that you belong in this world. Do you understand what a career in medicine is all about? Does your decision seem well thought out? Etc.
3) Revamp your app strategy. Don't be applying to the Southern state schools unless you have strong ties to those states; nearly all of our state schools heavily prefer state residents. Apply to all of your own state schools (every single one of them), and apply to other schools in the Midwest that take a good percentage of people from Illinois. If you want to add a few Southern schools as reach schools, pick a couple of the private schools like Miami or Tulane.
4) Spend some time this year introspecting on some of those what you now recognize were "poor decisions." You're not a kid any more. Physicians are on the whole risk-averse people, and that's why most of us aren't professional poker players. If you want to be a physician, you need to start thinking more like a physician, and less like a college kid.

Best of luck with your reapp.

 

[pietachok]

Hey all, as stated in my title I believe I completed undergrad with a very solid GPA and MCAT score. My main issue is I made some very poor decisions during my sophmore year in regards to alcohol. I was written up as being in the presence of alcohol twice, have one consumption of alcohol on my record, and finally was caught using a fake ID. I had this expunged from my record, but my school was notified of it so I must mention it as well. I had a perfectly clean record before this and have stayed out of trouble following this string of stupid actions. I applied to 17 medical schools this semester and did not receive a single II. Here are the schools I applied to:

Albany Medical School
Emory University School of Medicine
Florida State University
Georgetown University School of Medicine
Indiana
Loyola University Chicago Stritch School of Medicine
Michigan State University
New York Medical College
Oakland University
Rosalind Franklin
Rush
St. Louis University
Toledo
Tufts
Tulane
UIC
UNC

Here are my ECs:

50 hours church volunteering
60 hours searching databases for undergraduate research
90 hours emergency room volunteer
poker

I felt my poker playing differentiates me as an applicant as I spent much of my "free" time during undergrad playing poker to pay for my studies. I was able to pay for my undergraduate education this way but it resulted in the rest of my extra curriculars being much weaker.

So my main question is: Is there any hope for me? Do I have any chance of being accepted as a re-applicant with my red flags? One of my friends mentioned that she works as an emergency tech and that it is providing her with countless valuable clinical hours. Is this a good way to strengthen my ECs or should I focus on further volunteering and shadowing? Thanks for all/any help. It is greatly appreciated as I take a sobering realistic look at my future's prospects.

Poker by itself would probably be meh. But did you ever really sit down and think about the way that poker playing looks when it's on the application of somebody who has an alcohol violation and used a fake id? You painted a picture of yourself at best as someone who takes unnecessary risks. In addition to working on your ECs, I would really wonder about removing the poker entirely. You already have red flags you can't do anything about, so opening yourself up to even further scrutiny is silly. Gambling with your outcomes is not a coveted trait in med students or physicians.

 

[homerunhitter7]

Thank you for the continued responses- they are much appreciated. So the generalization I want to make based on these replies is that my IAs will not instantly get my app thrown out. Is this a proper line of reasoning? I will definitely focus my PS on my experience as a re-applicant. Let's say by the time I reapply I have an additional 80 hours of church volunteering, a reasonable amount of shadowing, and either ER volunteering or research volunteering. Any ballpark estimates on my chances to matriculate?

 

[xffan624]

Thank you for the continued responses- they are much appreciated. So the generalization I want to make based on these replies is that my IAs will not instantly get my app thrown out. Is this a proper line of reasoning? I will definitely focus my PS on my experience as a re-applicant. Let's say by the time I reapply I have an additional 80 hours of church volunteering, a reasonable amount of shadowing, and either ER volunteering or research volunteering. Any ballpark estimates on my chances to matriculate?

Bad idea.. Still not getting it. Why do you want to go into medicine? Having to reapply because your app wasn't good is not the PS you want to put out there. Giving an estimate on your chances is pretty difficult considering we don't have your school list or full list of EC's and the red flags are a wildcard that makes any chances dicey. This is not texas holdem. We can't give you a chance percentage.

My recommendation? Wait a couple years. Get a job that has some relation to the healthcare field or just any legal, normal job and continue volunteering in the healthcare field. Or even consider the military. You can use the GI bill to pay for school if you go to a state school. Reapplication with just extra EC's and a smarter application strategy is not a guarantee that you will get in. That might make you a triple reapplicant, which is a red flag in itself. You didn't even get an II. That should send a message that either the red flags are holding you back and there's nothing compelling that overcomes them to even offer an interview.

 

[Plecopotamus]

Thank you for the continued responses- they are much appreciated. So the generalization I want to make based on these replies is that my IAs will not instantly get my app thrown out. Is this a proper line of reasoning? I will definitely focus my PS on my experience as a re-applicant. Let's say by the time I reapply I have an additional 80 hours of church volunteering, a reasonable amount of shadowing, and either ER volunteering or research volunteering. Any ballpark estimates on my chances to matriculate?

Am I correct in understanding you have 4 institutional actions of some sort? These are separate incidents? If so:

I don't know how many years out of college you are, but 0 interviews is a pretty big statement that the rest of your application package doesn't balance out your infractions. While your ECs are weak, I don't know if I believe that fixing them is going to be adequate. You have to fix the part(s) of your app that is broken. In your case, 1 problem is ECs, but another glaring one is that you look like you have really bad judgment. Getting a job (or maybe grad school), doing well at that job, and waiting for enough time to elapse that you can convincingly say those IA's represent incredible youthful idiocy would probably be a good move. I realize that's unappealing when your MCAT will expire after 3 years, but I'm not sure you have a shot otherwise.

With regards to estimating your chances of successful matriculation, I'm not sure anybody here can do that for you. You've gotten yourself not into an elite group of people who have IA's but into the super specific group of people who have multiple IA's by basically repeating the same type of offense. N=small for that subset of applicants. Time will improve your chances of success. Succeeding in other areas of life and responsibilities will improve your chances of success. Not having any more trouble at all with the law or school or work will improve your chances of success. Having connections could help. But I don't think anybody here can give you a worthwhile estimate. I wouldn't be surprised if it were single-digits low with multiple infractions and minimal time elapsed.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

More than anything your ECs are just really weak. I think poker is an alright activity if you focus on some positives (even with the IA, is it a killer to mention it?) especially if you are a pro and it payed for college, it seems like you might be able to put an interesting story line in there.

What you need to do is get some teaching/leadership/research/clinical experiences that are significant. DO you have any over 100 hrs? What were your other activities on AMCAS? What have you done in your application year? Did you get the PS readers to go over your PS? What is your sGPA?

 

[Snoopy2006]

Other schools to consider: SIU (if you're from downstate IL), MCW, Iowa. Get your application in early.

The poker was a mistake, especially in light of the alcohol infractions. I'm sure you've gotten the message by now, but just wanted to reiterate since it seems a few people above don't understand how admissions committees might view that. QofQuimica and pietachok are absolutely correct.

That said, zero interviews is very worrying. Are you sure your LoRs were strong? Were they from faculty that know you well?

 

[homerunhitter7]

Science GPA was a bit higher than overall ~3.78. I guess it's hard to be sure that my LoR were strong since I didn't get to read them, but I made sure to carefully consider the professors I asked. They all taught courses that I excelled in, participated, and showed an interest/wanted to participate in research. As an aside, I have been recently trying to get some shadowing experience and have found it next to impossible. I don't have any connections unfortunately, so I just googled doctors around my neighborhood and called the HR department of my local hospital. All of my calls have been met with surprise (claims that they never had that sort of request before) and then a succinct no. Any advice or help in this area? I have also been trying to get in contact with Oakland Medical School to seek advice on re-applying, but all I get is an answering machine even though I am calling during hours the message claims they are working. I left a message, but have not been called back. Do you guys think it would be a good idea to leave a second message? I don't want to come of obnoxious or anything, but it has been around a week now...