3L law student with some serious questions

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brianday

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I am a 3rd year law student at a tier 1 law school. I currently have a poor law school GPA of 2.4. Even with this low GPA I am in the top half of my class. Law School grades are artificially low. I was hoping to finish law school, pass the bar and immediately start pre med work. My UGPA was pretty good, 3.7.

Is my law school GPA going to be averaged into my UGPA along with soon to be completed post bacc work? Does my law degree help or hurt my chances of med school acceptance?
 
I am a 3rd year law student at a tier 1 law school. I currently have a poor law school GPA of 2.4. Even with this low GPA I am in the top half of my class. Law School grades are artificially low. I was hoping to finish law school, pass the bar and immediately start pre med work. My UGPA was pretty good, 3.7.

Is my law school GPA going to be averaged into my UGPA along with soon to be completed post bacc work? Does my law degree help or hurt my chances of med school acceptance?

No, grad GPA is separate from undergrad GPA. Having a law degree with a low GPA is probably not going to help your application a lot. Neither is leaving a legal career immediately after finishing law school.
 
I agree that it won't HELP. However, if you FRAME it correctly, you can, as they say, "keep the damage to a minimum". 😀

I would link the two -- your low GPA in law school (contrasted with your high GPA in UG) is a symptom of your disallusionment with law -- hence, your desire to enter medicine. You long for something more meaningful, and you don't want to wait too long to "right" your decision.

Fortunately, in the screenings for many schools, they look at UG total GPA and the UG science GPA. If you kickazz on your post-bacc science GPA, you should be able to do quite nicely.

You should know this from law, Brian: "It's all in how you spin it." :hardy: Believe me, baby -- I'll be spinning right there with ya. Tap dancing, begging for mercy, etc, etc, etc. 😀

HAB
 
No, grad GPA is separate from undergrad GPA. Having a law degree with a low GPA is probably not going to help your application a lot. Neither is leaving a legal career immediately after finishing law school.

Why do think leaving a legal career immediately will be a negative factor? I am 23 and feel like the best thing for me to do is to pursue my desire to be a doctor while I am still young and things are less complicated. A law degree can always be used in addition to med degree.
 
I think that he is thinking it will be a negative because it will be seen by adcoms that you do not follow through. They might question your maturity, your motives, your REAL, pure interest in MEDICINE. The last thing they want to do is give you a spot at a med school, you go there for 4 years, and then say "you know what? Screw this. I want to be an engineer!" :laugh:

Remember, I'm on your side -- but he's right. It won't be a positive. You *will* get asked about it during the interview process. As in:

- "why did you go to law school if medicine is where you wanted to be?"

- "how long after you started law school did you want to becomer a doctor? why didn't you drop out right away if you knew it right away?"

- "put yourself in our shoes -- shouldn't we offer this spot to someone else who has shown a lifelong commitment to medicine, rather than someone who might be trying to simply "climb another mountain?" (i'm not saying that's what you're doing....but some might question your motives for JUST completing a law degree and immediately switching horses in mid-stream, just as your professional career was about to begin).

Like I said though -- it will be incumbent upon YOU to PROVE to the adcoms why being a physician is right for you -- regardless of your previous choices. You must frame it so they look at your motives in a positive light. You can do this through your personal statement and your secondaries.

Good luck to you.
HAB
 
If you rock your post bacc courses and the MCAT, no one is going to care either way.

All the angst about motivation and desire is all good and fine, but in the end, it's a numbers game and always will be.

Why not gamble? If it doesn't work out, you've always got your law degree to fall back on.
 
FWIW, I met two JD applicants that were applying to my postbac program last year. One graduated from Columbia and the other from Harvard and both were near the top of their classes. I don't believe either were eventually admitted although there were some qualitative reasons for that IIRC. I think the reasoning there was pretty similar to what the other posters mentioned and what I said before. I'm speculating, but I would guess the adcom felt they didn't demonstrate a commitment to, or passion for medicine.

I would recommend doing some volunteering/shadowing and make sure it's really what you want to do. Then apply for a top formal postbac and go from there, but make sure you have a good reason for why you want to enter the field, not only for admissions purposes, but also because you're going to spend a lot of money and time in this process when you already have the training to start a lucrative alternative career. People are going to think that if you're going to give that up, you better have a really good reason for it.
 
There are tons of folks with JDs on SDN who have been admitted to medical school, including me. It's not at all a deal-breaker, and that's not your question anyway. 🙂

As to the GPA issue, no one ever mentioned my law school GPA, and it was not averaged in with my other grades. My grades were actually fine, but no one cared. The numbers they care about are your ugrad GPA, science GPA and MCAT. :luck:
 
There are tons of folks with JDs on SDN who have been admitted to medical school, including me. It's not at all a deal-breaker, and that's not your question anyway. 🙂

As to the GPA issue, no one ever mentioned my law school GPA, and it was not averaged in with my other grades. My grades were actually fine, but no one cared. The numbers they care about are your ugrad GPA, science GPA and MCAT. :luck:

Thank you. I am optimistic about getting back into an undergrad environment with a traditional style of teaching and test taking. At the end, its all about numbers.

Did you do post bacc work before applying to med schools?
 
Thank you. I am optimistic about getting back into an undergrad environment with a traditional style of teaching and test taking. At the end, its all about numbers.

Did you do post bacc work before applying to med schools?

I minored in chemistry in ugrad, so I already had all of those courses plus some bio stuff. I did physics and some more bio as a postbacc. I also didn't do an official postbacc -- instead, I took classes while working fulltime.
 
FWIW, I met two JD applicants that were applying to my postbac program last year. One graduated from Columbia and the other from Harvard and both were near the top of their classes. I don't believe either were eventually admitted although there were some qualitative reasons for that IIRC. I think the reasoning there was pretty similar to what the other posters mentioned and what I said before. I'm speculating, but I would guess the adcom felt they didn't demonstrate a commitment to, or passion for medicine.

I would recommend doing some volunteering/shadowing and make sure it's really what you want to do. Then apply for a top formal postbac and go from there, but make sure you have a good reason for why you want to enter the field, not only for admissions purposes, but also because you're going to spend a lot of money and time in this process when you already have the training to start a lucrative alternative career. People are going to think that if you're going to give that up, you better have a really good reason for it.

Or, if you can't do formal post-bacc, why not enroll as a special (non-degree) grad student (depending on which schools offer this option)?
 
Or, if you can't do formal post-bacc, why not enroll as a special (non-degree) grad student (depending on which schools offer this option)?

Yeah, that option can work just fine. I disagree with the notion that the op needs a prestigious postbacc program because his ugrad gpa is good, and his class ranking in law school is good (not that it matters, but it is). I'd save the expensive prestigious postbacc for correcting academic flaws because taking the classes at a local state school is generally just fine.
 
I am a 3rd year law student at a tier 1 law school. I currently have a poor law school GPA of 2.4. Even with this low GPA I am in the top half of my class. Law School grades are artificially low. I was hoping to finish law school, pass the bar and immediately start pre med work. My UGPA was pretty good, 3.7.

Is my law school GPA going to be averaged into my UGPA along with soon to be completed post bacc work? Does my law degree help or hurt my chances of med school acceptance?

But I'm in "somewhat" the same boat, however I pursued a different career for about 10 years before heading back to do my pre req's.

My grad GPA in Law School was quite a bit better .. 3.0 or so.. I didn't care in 3 L and just let stuff go... but My Under grad GPA was no where near as good as yours.. You've got me destroyed in undergrad..

I did real well on my LSATs but I digress...

Let's just put it this way.. there's nothing that discourages me from having a "legal" background... I don't see it as a black mark against me for any reason other than it will provide a person in an interview situation an opportunity to question my follow through which is a legitimate question.

But as far as whether or not I'm discouraged or think it will kill my app?

No way.. I'm 39 .. two kids a wife ... and heck I'm going for it. So don't let ANYBODY tell you what you can or can not do.

I'll let you know how it goes but so far so good... A's across the Board <g>.. I'm a much better student it seems once I realize the difference .... Ochem is getting tough though with the rx part looming ...

How do people prevent themselves from total boredom? For instance I have to retake Physics I something I had like 22 years ago and I can't get myself interested in it at all.. I'm just cramming my way through it and I think it might affect my final grade..

But I digress yet again... Don't let what you did "BEFORE" discourage your future.. Be prepared to address your shortcomings but beyond that .. FULL STEAM AHEAD ... hey all I can offer.

Good Luck all.. sorry I haven't been around.

Buzy Buzy Buzzzzzy
 
Oh by the way Having been a former "attendee" with a top 2% LSAT LOL .. like it matters ...

What in the world is a TIER ONE LAW SCHOOL?

Ne'er eard of such a thing... is this something new in the US NEWS and WORLD Report issue?

Nah seriously ... what is it? I'm dying to know...

No Contracts without valid consideration. Blackstone doesn't change from Locale to locale <g>
 
Yeah, that option can work just fine. I disagree with the notion that the op needs a prestigious postbacc program because his ugrad gpa is good, and his class ranking in law school is good (not that it matters, but it is). I'd save the expensive prestigious postbacc for correcting academic flaws because taking the classes at a local state school is generally just fine.

Formal postbac programs are pretty good for non-science majors because you get a bit more advising, and IMO it's worth it. I've written on this rather extensively in the postbac forum, for those that are interested.
 
Oh by the way Having been a former "attendee" with a top 2% LSAT LOL .. like it matters ...

What in the world is a TIER ONE LAW SCHOOL?

Ne'er eard of such a thing... is this something new in the US NEWS and WORLD Report issue?

Nah seriously ... what is it? I'm dying to know...

No Contracts without valid consideration. Blackstone doesn't change from Locale to locale <g>

Tier 1 = top 50 law school according the US News rankings

Us news ranks top 100, tier 3, and tier 4. Top 100 is broken in to two tiers (1 and 2).

The school I attend is technically a top 25. I also did really well on my LSAT, it matters to me because I am leaving law school with almost zero debt because of the merritt scholarship granted to me by my current Law school.

Oh by the way ,you can have have an contract by estoppel. A contract without valid consideration where an offeror creates a reasonable detrimental reliance on the part of the the offeree. 😀
 
Do you lawyers out there feel that the large amount of studying required for law school helped you at post bacc and/or med school?
 
In case some of my story helps, here's the gist of it:

I also had a good undergrad gpa, about a 3.84. However, keep in mind that the gpa you graduated with may not be your actual gpa. Any college-level classes taken at any other institutions (i.e., not at your undergrad college) will be factored in, as well as any study abroad work (if it was through a US college).

I went to law school (top 25 I guess) and while I did very well my first two years, after I worked for the summer after my second year I became disillusioned and disappointed and knew this probably wasn't the right career for me. Thus, I really slacked off my third year and graduated with a 3.2. I then went on to do a federal clerkship, and worked at two different law firms in two different areas of law.

I won't go into how and why I decided to switch to medicine (although I could if you'd like - that's what I've been answering in all of my interviews), but when I decided, I had been practicing for about six or seven years. I started volunteering at the local ER, and six months later got involved in clinical research there. I quit my job at the end of the year and started a formal post-bac program so that I'd have a committee letter (which is invaluable as a non-trad in the application process). I got mostly As (a 3.86), and when that was factored in with all of my undergrad classes, ended up with an undergrad gpa of 3.77 (undergrad and postbac are grouped together). I took the MCAT and did ok, a 30S.

I applied early and broadly, and have received nine interview invites (two I declined). I have been accepted to five medical schools so far. Feel free to check out my mdapps (look to the left under my screen name). In my interviews, not one person brought up my 3.2 law school gpa. Then again, it was some time ago. I think that they're much more interested in my post-bac classes and that I proved I can do well in science classes (and have done so recently). I have been grilled in a couple of my interviews (Loyola, Tulane & UVM) about when, why and how dedicated I am to changing careers. They're very interested in my motivation.

The bottom line is that your low law school gpa will be the least of your problems. You will need to get a lot of clinical experience so that you can show you know what you're getting into, and are still passionate about it, and you will need to show that you can do very well in your post-bac classes. Another vital part of your application will be knocking your personal statement out of the park. You're going to have to cover the why and the timing of this switch, and also convey your passion and dedication to medicine. Because that will probably be the hang up in most adcom's minds as they look at your application. In fact, the assistant dean that I interviewed with at Tulane said that last year there'd been a lawyer that she'd been tempted to invite in for an intervew, but that he really hadn't made it clear why he wanted to become a doctor, and that she had the impression that he was applying more out of hating law than loving medicine.

Anyway, I think you can definitely get into medical school. Just be aware that it's a long process. It's been two and a half years since I made my decision to switch, and I'll be starting medical school in a year. I don't think that you need to practice as an attorney in order to get into medical school, but it might be a good idea to practice for a year (if you can stomach it) for two reasons: 1) to be able to say that you practiced and followed through but that your calling is definitely not as a lawyer; 2) you can save up money to pay for your post-bac; and 3) it will give you an extra year of obtaining clinical/research/volunteer medical experience on the side. Then again, if you start volunteering now, I suppose you can cover point 3 during your last year in law school now. If you decide not to practice for a year, but to start a post-bac program this coming summer (which you can easily finish in one summer and two semesters), then you must start volunteering now, and be sure to have a very good answer for your career change. Definitely don't practice law for a year if you absolutely know you will hate it and think it's not worth the benefits I described above. I believe that you would still be able to get into medical school regardless if you have all of your other ducks in a row.

Also, you say that a law degree can be used in conjunction with a medical degree. To be honest, I'm not an expert, but so far the only jobs I can think of that would do so would be as a patent attorney, a consultant, administration, or a job related to health care policy. If you have an interest in health care policy, you should definitely start exploring that now, and I believe it would be a huge plus to your application to medical school. The others career goals, not so much. They don't want to train people who don't want to practice medicine or benefit the field significantly.

Good luck, and feel free to send me a message if you like.
 
Do you lawyers out there feel that the large amount of studying required for law school helped you at post bacc and/or med school?

In some ways it helps, but in many ways the sciences are so different that your law school approach won't work. However since your GPA isn't of the A variety (and no, law school grades are in fact not so notoriously low, although your particular school might be) I wouldn't say you can use your techniques that got you A's in law school to get A's in med school. You won't see another essay or issue spotting test in med school -- it is all short answer science.

The danger of trying to go straight from law school to med school are that you run the risk of being labeled a "career student" or unfocused, or are just interested in being a professional but haven't really decided what yet. Med school is not something you can dabble in, so you have to be convincing in your Why medicine track record. Med schools want evidence that you will graduate and actually practice medicine. The fact that you didn't do so with law may be seen as a negative. All these obstacles may be overcome, but they are in fact obstacles. There are many many many threads like this one, BTW, so you may want to do a search.

I think you need to get clear on what you don't like about law given that you havent actually practiced. A lot of the same negatives may exist in medicine. What will be key is that you need to be running toward something in medicine, not away from something in law. The "I want to change because I dislike the law" position won't get you into med school. And if you are on the fence it may pay to finish up law school, pass the bar and actually try it before you decide you don't like it. Saying you don't want to practice rings hollow unless you have real life experience seeing what it is all about.
And having actually practiced law, you would be in the position to assert all the wonderful transferable skills between the two professions and it is a much easier jump.

You really should do a ton of shadowing and volunteering before you leave law school. It is foolish to leap before you really look. A lot of us nontrads looked at and evaluated a career switch to medicine for years before making the launch. It is even more important not to misstep into medicine than law because it is a longer path, more expensive, and harder to extricate yourself from once you start.
 
I'm a reapplicant to med school, and graduated from a Tier 1 law school with a 3.25 GPA - which was right on our average. After I didn't get in to med school last year I called all the schools for feedback. More than one admissions person cited my "low law school GPA" as an issue. Though, some others didn't seem to think it was too important. So, your law GPA might cause you some problems, but I suspect that it can be overcome if you do really well in postbacc classes. Also, getting lots of clinical exposure is crucial.
 
I'm a reapplicant to med school, and graduated from a Tier 1 law school with a 3.25 GPA - which was right on our average. After I didn't get in to med school last year I called all the schools for feedback. More than one admissions person cited my "low law school GPA" as an issue. Though, some others didn't seem to think it was too important. So, your law GPA might cause you some problems, but I suspect that it can be overcome if you do really well in postbacc classes. Also, getting lots of clinical exposure is crucial.

I'm really surprised to hear that, especially since a 3.25 isn't really a low law school GPA to begin with.

Getting back to the applying with a law degree, yeah, the ps and good clinical/medical experiences are pretty important. The absolute safest way to do it is to pass the bar and practice as an attorney for a few years. However, that's not required. I'm one of those people who wanted to drop out of law school after the first month but kept on going because of external pressure. At the end, though, I just couldn't emotionally keep it going enough to work for a few years in the field after graduation, so I bailed at that point and worked in a tangential area for a few years. It worked out fine, and honestly no one really seemed that interested that I didn't practice.

Of course the response might have been different had I immediately jumped into a postbacc. But I believe there have been successful applicants on SDN who did do that, so again, it's not the end of the world. If you're neutral about practicing, practice for a while. Otherwise, do what you've got to do, perfect the rest of your application as much as possible and apply broadly. And again, don't listen to negative unfounded remarks about the hardship of applying with a JD from people who haven't been there.
 
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