3rd Time Applicant Advice (ugh)

[Reapp2019]

Hi all, looks like i'll be a 3rd timer

stats - 3.8 sGPA 3.9 cGPA, 35S MCAT (12/12/S/11), ORM from CA
academics - honors physical science major, biology minor, deans list, academic scholarships
activities -
studied abroad in latin america (i speak spanish) 1 summer
medical mission trip 1 month
over 2000 hospital hours as nurse assistant
1 year of 4 hr/wkend volunteering in hospital clinic
3 summers independent basic science research, one publication in inconsequential journal
5 years of coaching youth rec football
1 marathon/yr (use to run xc in hs)
leadership position in two on-campus groups supporting local charities, 2 years and 4 years respectively
ps and recs are supposedly good, according to admissions i have discussed with. they just said the normal 'not enough spots too many exceptional applicants' talk

1st cycle, complete in november after my mcat came back, applied to 20 schools and got 5 interviews, waitlisted and evntually rejected at all 5. spread of schools was 10 with LizzyM 72-77, 5 70-72, and 5 from 65-70.

this cycle i applied to a similar list of 20 schools and complete in early august. I had 1 interview as we enter december was waitlisted and i was already rejected at about a quarter of the schools i applied to

originally, everyone told me i wouldnt have an issue getting in. but now it seems like i will never get in. this is why i ask, what do i do next? i know i need to get my application in the first day next cycle, i would have this cycle but i was abroad at the time in a rural area. apply do? join the military? idk what to do, friends

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[LizzyM]

First cycle: you applied too late and too top heavy. Getting 5 interviews and not getting any offers means that you were good enough to be interviewed (and not too late after all) but did not shine at interview.

Early august is on the late side for someone who has an MCAT score ready to go and knows how to navigate the AMCAS applicaton. There is so much riding on an application... it is no time to be traveling in a rural area. Pluse, you may be top heavy with schools again. Are you applying outside of California & top 20?
Are you currently employed? If not, how do you spend your time?
Have you done any mock interviews, video recorded interviews or received feedback regarding your interview style?

 

[solitarius]

'not enough spots too many exceptional applicants' talk

Sounds like you think it's an empty cliche. I really didn't quite realize the embarrassment of riches med schools have from the application pool until this year.

If I were you, I wouldn't reapply next year. If you do, you have to really shift your target list of schools lower, but even then, you'll have the stigma of being a third-timer.

Here's my take on your situation:

You built up a solidly competitive profile, but you wasted your first and best chance b/c you couldn't wait another year to apply early. You got five II's. How many more could you have gotten if you submitted the next year in June? With later interviews, the bar to get in is higher because there are fewer spots. Like Ms. M said, you're not interviewing well if you can't convert 1 out of 5. It's possible things may not have worked out the first cycle due to your interviewing, but you would've put yourself in the best situation to succeed by applying earlier (and with more chances with more possible II's).

As a re-app, you put yourself in the spot of having to show improvement, which is tough from a strong starting point. Schools are inclined to pass on applicants they already passed over unless you can prove otherwise. Differing from LizzieM, I don't think early August is a dealbeaker time-wise.

I wonder whether you need a different narrative b/c I'm not sure the same one can sustain you pass a third cycle. Maybe consider getting other life experiences and test your commitment to it by pursuing something else for awhile, something not parlayed as a step to medical school.

 

[DrMidlife]

Have you done any mock interviews, video recorded interviews or received feedback regarding your interview style?

This times 1000.

To be doing so poorly with such good numbers says you should be seeking critical review of your interview skills and essays. Critical means criticism. People who tell you "you're so great!" are not helping at this point.

Best of luck to you.

 

[Reapp2019]

First cycle: you applied too late and too top heavy. Getting 5 interviews and not getting any offers means that you were good enough to be interviewed (and not too late after all) but did not shine at interview.

15 of the 20 schools i applied to were below or well below my LizzyM, is that top heavy? if I were to apply to 15 non-CA schools, where would I apply?

Getting 5 interviews and not getting any offers means that you were good enough to be interviewed (and not too late after all) but did not shine at interview.

i think this was pretty obvious to me too, i did several mock interviews beforehand the first couple were very critical but it seemed to get better - i get anxious but it hasnt hindered me before medical school. im just a regular person usually seen as outgoing

Early august is on the late side for someone who has an MCAT score ready to go and knows how to navigate the AMCAS applicaton. There is so much riding on an application... it is no time to be traveling in a rural area.

august was when i was complete at schools, but i agree i should have been in first day no excuses

Pluse, you may be top heavy with schools again. Are you applying outside of California & top 20?

applied to most of the ucs, a couple top 20s but plenty of middle of the pack private schools as well

Are you currently employed? If not, how do you spend your time?

i do independent paid research for a university and work in a hospital. my biggest weakness like you said was timing and interviewing, i tried to improve on timing but how can you say youre working on your interviewing and interaction as improvement in your application?

Have you done any mock interviews, video recorded interviews or received feedback regarding your interview style?

i have done mock interviews. at first i was very anxious and spoke without thinking so i ended up rambling and they were very critical of it. i did a couple more and seemed to improve significantly. i talk slower and give more concise answers now, but i can speak too quickly if i get anxious

thanks for your reply

Sounds like you think it's an empty cliche. I really didn't quite realize the embarrassment of riches med schools have from the application pool until this year.

i know its true, i was just hoping i would be the person they wanted

If I were you, I wouldn't reapply next year. If you do, you have to really shift your target list of schools lower, but even then, you'll have the stigma of being a third-timer.

do schools know how many reapplicantions you have done if you didnt apply to them all three times? i can take a year off next year but i will also have to retake my mcat and it will be a new format

You built up a solidly competitive profile, but you wasted your first and best chance b/c you couldn't wait another year to apply early. You got five II's. How many more could you have gotten if you submitted the next year in June? With later interviews, the bar to get in is higher because there are fewer spots. Like Ms. M said, you're not interviewing well if you can't convert 1 out of 5. It's possible things may not have worked out the first cycle due to your interviewing, but you would've put yourself in the best situation to succeed by applying earlier (and with more chances with more possible II's).

i was naive thinking i could apply late and get in but i cant fix that retroactively. i do think my interviewing needs to improve, what are the best outlets for that considering i have already done mock interviews and job interviews and done well enough to get hired and even the harsh feedback said i was okay, but could do better on the points i talked about above? i really want to do better

As a re-app, you put yourself in the spot of having to show improvement, which is tough from a strong starting point. Schools are inclined to pass on applicants they already passed over unless you can prove otherwise. Differing from LizzieM, I don't think early August is a dealbeaker time-wise.

I wonder whether you need a different narrative b/c I'm not sure the same one can sustain you pass a third cycle. Maybe consider getting other life experiences and test your commitment to it by pursuing something else for awhile, something not parlayed as a step to medical school.

where do i improve my application at face value? or do i just apply to a whole new set of schools off the bat? if I take a year off again i will have to retake a new mcat in the future, too. if i go into deep research or even pursue a new degree or career wont that look like im not committed to medicine?

This times 1000.

To be doing so poorly with such good numbers says you should be seeking critical review of your interview skills and essays. Critical means criticism. People who tell you "you're so great!" are not helping at this point.

Best of luck to you.

if i get another interview i will make sure to seek every opportunity i can to do more mock interviews. it is clearly a problem. schools said my essays were fine and i got them peer reviewed excessively, but i will look into getting more people to look over them too and give me critique

thank you all for the feedback

 

[LizzyM]

I can't really tell how your LizzyM score compares to the schools you applied to given that you gave us ranges that overlap and that include schools both below and above your LIzzyM score. You got 5 interviews the first time out which was good... you might be good enough to interview this time around but tainted...."he looks good but what's wrong with him that he didn't get in anywhere last time?" That can make some schools a bit gun-shy about inviting you this time around. Your best bets might be at schools that interviewed and rejected you -- although I've also seen applicants strke out out two years running after an interview (sometimes hope springs eternal for the adcom).

 

[DrMidlife]

if i get another interview i will make sure to seek every opportunity i can to do more mock interviews. it is clearly a problem. schools said my essays were fine and i got them peer reviewed excessively, but i will look into getting more people to look over them too and give me critique

You can't wait for a specific opportunity to work on presentation skills. You're getting interviews and then not getting in. That's all the motivation you should need to seek out help with professional development. You're going to need it for the rest of your career.

Take a look at the services of somebody like Judy Colwell. This is not an endorsement, just a suggestion that you consider spending some money on a consultant with a good reputation. After 2 app cycles this is completely appropriate to consider.

Best of luck to you.

 

[cabinbuilder]

You need to forget California since it's obvious you are not going to get in there. You have to realize that most people have to move for medical school and residency and to think that you will forever get to stay in California is naive. As far as applying elsewhere, only you can decide that but I would change your mindset that only California will be ok for you and see where else would be agreeable in the short term. Medical school and residency pass quickly. You need to go where you have the best chance of being a doctor and when you are done move back to California where you really want to live.

Also, what is going on with your essay? Does it give a good representation of yourself and aspirations? Is it fun to read? Will it make you remembered among 1000's of applications? Does it just say "I want to be a doctor because....." I sure hope it's more than that. Your numbers are great, I agree with the others, maybe you come off too cocky or difficult to deal with during interviews? Nobody wants to deal with some who is arrogant, full of himself, or entitled. Was your vision for yourself in 10 years a doctor or did you give some other career option? These things matter as well as applying smartly, broadly and early. I applied 3 times too, it's about picking the school that gives you the best chance of admission, not assuming that you will be able to live where you expect to.

 

[Hemorrage]

I'm sitting here reading this and i honestly feel bad for you. I'm in a similar boat. I worked my ass off, got a 35 on the MCAT + a 3.6 GPA, yet i'm not getting nearly as many II's as i would like to. (Gotten 2 so far). If we're getting to the point where people with strong academic credentials like what we both have aren't able to get accepted, then i have no idea what these schools are looking for. I don't know bud i really don't know.

 

[lalalaaaaaa]

I don't have any better advice than anyone else but I just wanted to say good luck. You have an amazing app at face value it seems, and your determination is strong. Just bad luck sometimes :/

 

[Goro]

Strongly concur with my learned colleague. I wonder if ther eis a "red flag" in your app. A bad LOR? Any IAs? Multiple misdemeanors? Any felonies? If not, as others have said, it comes back to interview skills.

If you reapply to any of the same schools, you will need to show significant improvement over the last app cycle.

Definitely add more safety schools. Invest in the MSAR and target those schools whose median stats are close to yours.

First cycle: you applied too late and too top heavy. Getting 5 interviews and not getting any offers means that you were good enough to be interviewed (and not too late after all) but did not shine at interview.

Early august is on the late side for someone who has an MCAT score ready to go and knows how to navigate the AMCAS applicaton. There is so much riding on an application... it is no time to be traveling in a rural area. Pluse, you may be top heavy with schools again. Are you applying outside of California & top 20?
Are you currently employed? If not, how do you spend your time?
Have you done any mock interviews, video recorded interviews or received feedback regarding your interview style?

 

[Stagg737]

I'm currently a third time applicant and just got in, so I definitely understand your frustration. One interview during my first 2 cycles, and 3 so far this time around. That being said your stats are all (much) better than mine, but I've definitely got a wider variety of ECs. I'm guessing you A) have some interview problems as was previously stated and B) are setting your standards too high in terms of the schools you're applying to. The first issue has been addressed thoroughly above, the second is a whole different beast to tackle.

Figure out what schools you really think you want to go to, regardless of their 'tier' or standing. Look into some 'safety' med schools that you think you'd like and apply there (if you don't get in and reapply). After all, the 'best' med school isn't always for you. To quote a SDN physician "the best school is the one that accepts you".

 

[Hemorrage]

I'm currently a third time applicant and just got in, so I definitely understand your frustration. One interview during my first 2 cycles, and 3 so far this time around. That being said your stats are all (much) better than mine, but I've definitely got a wider variety of ECs. I'm guessing you A) have some interview problems as was previously stated and B) are setting your standards too high in terms of the schools you're applying to. The first issue has been addressed thoroughly above, the second is a whole different beast to tackle.

Figure out what schools you really think you want to go to, regardless of their 'tier' or standing. Look into some 'safety' med schools that you think you'd like and apply there (if you don't get in and reapply). After all, the 'best' med school isn't always for you. To quote a SDN physician "the best school is the one that accepts you".

Is this for allo?

 

[Stagg737]

Is this for allo?

2 DO, 1 allo, acceptance at DO. Only been rejected at 3/25 schools though and wait listed at 2. I also have a master's degree and some pretty unique ECs which I am sure helped.

To both you and reapp, I'd say don't give up. It's definitely tough, but it's also kind of a crapshoot. There are tons of great applicants, you just have to get a little lucky sometimes. One of the guys in my master's program applied 5 times before getting in. 2 of the schools said they gave him interviews because he was clearly dedicated to becoming a doctor. I mean, you'd have to be to get rejected that many times and keep applying. My general advice is to just keep working to improve your app, and keep applying. That's what I did and I'm happy to say it paid off.

You both have solid MCATs, just make your ECs so strong schools CAN'T ignore you. Also reconsider where you apply. There's nothing wrong with the 'low tier' (I hate this term, I think the 'tier' thing is BS) or DO. A doctor on here said 'the best school is the one that accepts you' and I totally agree. Once you're in it's up to you to rock your classes and kill the boards. In the end that's what the residencies care most about, not where you went to school.

 

[Plecopotamus]

I had to apply 3x before I got in. I had ~3.5cGPA, 3.3sGPA, 34T MCAT.
I was complete way too late the first year (thanks pre-med committee for not sending out my letter) & only got 1 interview.
The second year I got 1 interview, thankfully with a program that was willing to do an application post-mortem and told me not to use my committee letter & to not address any weaknesses in my PS.
The 3rd cycle, I got 2 new LORs from PIs where I worked (at a medical school), and ditched the committee letter, and got into an MD program in CA.

Obviously, my committee letter was dragging me down, I can only assume b/c rather than pure LORs which can potentially be full of nothing but glowing comments about you, committee letters at my program compared me to a very competitive group of peers and allowed for the committee to editorialize, which I feel is inappropriate given that they only ever spoke to me for 5 minutes at a time. So, if you're using a committee letter, I would consider getting rid of it (most programs say that's ok 2 years out of school). I also think new LORs from your physician employers are key (if you haven't been using them already) -- they have the potential to say things that reassure an adcom that whatever shortcoming you have in the interview or application is not hindering your patient or professional interactions. In general, if you think one or more of your LORs could be lukewarm, you need to not hold back and act to replace it with one you know will gush about you.

As others have mentioned, you clearly have an interviewing problem and may not have applied to an appropriate assortment of schools.
Also, did you change your PS? Does it now talk about being a reapplicant and get defensive about any weaknesses in your application? Some people get advised to do that, but it's your only place to sell yourself, so I can see that adding to the problem of reapplicant stigma that seems to be keeping your previously II-earning application from getting II's this time around.

 

[deleted480308]

Reapp,

Do you have DO schools in your list? You should

 

[OldMemphis]

Call the schools and ask them what you should do. It seems really awkward and maybe some DAs won't be too friendly. But it won't hurt. I have several friends that were re-applicants and successful at UT (Tenn). The DA there was always helpful answering "what should I do" questions. I wanted in DCOM so I drove out here (450 miles) and met as many people as I could. I got in. I have no idea if that helped, but it didn't hurt. I was asked if I had visited and who I had seen. They definitely have systems in place, but any type of relationship is better than just being a name with some stats. You never really know what might keep you from being the last one in or make you the first one out.

 

[Reapp2019]

@LizzyM @solitarius @DrMidlife @cabinbuilder @Hemorrage @lalalaaaaaa @Goro @Stagg737 @Plecopotamus @sb247 @OldMemphis

Hey all,

Against all odds, I was accepted to an MD program this cycle. I am thankful for your constructive help and advice, it's people like you that make this site so great.

Thanks,
Reapp2019

 

[cabinbuilder]

@LizzyM @solitarius @DrMidlife @cabinbuilder @Hemorrage @lalalaaaaaa @Goro @Stagg737 @Plecopotamus @sb247 @OldMemphis

Hey all,

Against all odds, I was accepted to an MD program this cycle. I am thankful for your constructive help and advice, it's people like you that make this site so great.

Thanks,
Reapp2019

was it in California after all?

 

[Goro]

Congrats!!
In 4.5 years, you're going to be a doctor!

Hey all,

Against all odds, I was accepted to an MD program this cycle. I am thankful for your constructive help and advice, it's people like you that make this site so great.

Thanks,
Reapp2019[/quote]

 

[Stagg737]

Congratulations!

Glad to hear that all the hard work paid off! Even if there was some luck involved (I'm sure there was for me), you're in which is all that really matters. Good luck and hopefully we can rock the boards!