4.0 GPA | 520 MCAT | Low-Average ECs | School List/School Strategy Please Help?

[Ebha]

Hi,

I'm kind of stuck as to where to apply. I think my ECs are average or poor for top 20 schools, but as I understand it, my stats are high enough that I won't get IIs for many other schools.

Program: Biochem
Extras: Full scholarship (is this worth noting on application?)
GPA: 4.0 science, 4.0 overall
MCAT: 520

Research
-1 summer internship in private lab
-2 years working in 2 different private labs post-graduation (I'm non-trad)
-No publications/posters, none planned either

Clinical ECs
-60 hours shadowing physicians in different specialties
-No clinical volunteering as of yet. ~50 hours expected by AMCAS submission, obviously for what it's worth, more will be done during the summer/fall/winter 2017

Non-Clinical ECs
-Hundreds of hours teaching karate
-2 semesters of non-sport club activities
-6 semesters as co-captain of school rugby team
-140 hours into non-profit choral group

School List
Washington Uni
Vanderbilt
New York Uni
Pritzker
Stanford
Michigan
Case Western
Duke
Keck
Einstein
Cincinnati
Boston
Hopkins
Emory
Columbia
U of Maryland (MD resident)

I know this list is really top-heavy. Can anyone suggest more reasonable schools open to giving IIs to high stats, or a good strategy for what I should be looking for in MSAR?

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[GrapesofRath]

You are right that your ECs are rather lacking for the schools you want to apply to(and really need to be with your stats). Biggest issue is they are lacking where schools pay attention to. No clinical experience outside of shadowing. Limited volunteering experience. No posters/pubs/presentations in 2 years of research.

And unfortunately you also live in a state with a very low IS matriculation% and that has only one state school that turns away people with these stats not so infrequently every year, both IS and OOS. It would really help your cause to wait a year and boost your ECs, particularly your clinical experience outside of shadowing and by developing service with the less fortunate and most vulnerable populations. Because right now you kind of called it; you have fantastic stats but ECs that arent going to appeal to schools you need to apply to with these stats. The lower tier schools dont interview many people with stats this high. You could see yourself in kind of a predicament which you could help yourself get out of by developing your ECs in the next year in particular areas. Dont plan on becoming a reapplicant ever; especially with stats this high. Do it right once and apply with your best app.

 

[Ebha]

Thanks for the reply! Unfortunately, I am a reapplicant. I applied to a variety of schools for this 2016 cycle. I got a few IIs, and am currently waitlisted, but my hopes are not high. A big negative was that my primary and all of my secondaries were submitted decently late--there was no way I could have avoided that this cycle, but I will not make that mistake again. Can I ask what the disadvantages are to being a reapplicant? Can they be circumvented?

Also, I know that applications are considered holistically and it's kind of hard to quantify things so blandly, but what is a good target number to aim for for my ECs to be competitive for the top 20? 200 hours of clinical volunteering? 500 non-clinical? My karate teaching is definitely volunteering, but does it hurt my app that my volunteer hours are so focused into the one activity?

 

[Goro]

You're just asking for a wasted app cycle.

Here's the deal: You need to show AdComs that you know what you're getting into, and show off your altruistic, humanistic side. We need to know that you're going to like being around sick or injured people for the next 40 years.

Here's another way of looking at it: would you buy a new car without test driving it? Buy a new suit or dress without trying it on??

We're also not looking for merely for good medical students, we're looking for people who will make good doctors, and 4.0 GPA robots are a dime-a-dozen.

I've seen plenty of posts here from high GPA/high MCAT candidates who were rejected because they had little patient contact experience.

Not all volunteering needs to be in a hospital. Think hospice, Planned Parenthood, nursing homes, rehab facilities, crisis hotlines, camps for sick children, or clinics.

Some types of volunteer activities are more appealing than others. Volunteering in a nice suburban hospital is all very well and good and all, but doesn't show that you're willing to dig in and get your hands dirty in the same way that working with the developmentally disabled (or homeless, the dying, or Alzheimers or mentally ill or elderly or ESL or domestic, rural impoverished) does. The uncomfortable situations are the ones that really demonstrate your altruism and get you 'brownie points'. Plus, they frankly teach you more -- they develop your compassion and humanity in ways comfortable situations can't.

Service need not be "unique". If you can alleviate suffering in your community through service to the poor, homeless, illiterate, fatherless, etc, you are meeting an otherwise unmet need and learning more about the lives of the people (or types of people) who will someday be your patients. Check out your local houses of worship for volunteer opportunities. The key thing is service to others less fortunate than you. And get off campus and out of your comfort zone!

Examples include: Habitat for Humanity, Ronald McDonald House, Humane Society, crisis hotlines, soup kitchen, food pantry, homeless or women’s shelter, after-school tutoring for students or coaching a sport in a poor school district, teaching ESL to adults at a community center, Big Brothers/Big Sisters, or Meals on Wheels.

Apply once with the best possible app, even if it means skipping an app cycle. Med schools aren't going anywhere.

Hi,

I'm kind of stuck as to where to apply. I think my ECs are average or poor for top 20 schools, but as I understand it, my stats are high enough that I won't get IIs for many other schools.

Program: Biochem
Extras: Full scholarship (is this worth noting on application?)
GPA: 4.0 science, 4.0 overall
MCAT: 520

Research
-1 summer internship in private lab
-2 years working in 2 different private labs post-graduation (I'm non-trad)
-No publications/posters, none planned either

Clinical ECs
-60 hours shadowing physicians in different specialties
-No clinical volunteering as of yet. ~50 hours expected by AMCAS submission, obviously for what it's worth, more will be done during the summer/fall/winter 2017

Non-Clinical ECs
-Hundreds of hours teaching karate
-2 semesters of non-sport club activities
-6 semesters as co-captain of school rugby team
-140 hours into non-profit choral group

School List
Washington Uni
Vanderbilt
New York Uni
Pritzker
Stanford
Michigan
Case Western
Duke
Keck
Einstein
Cincinnati
Boston
Hopkins
Emory
Columbia
U of Maryland (MD resident)

I know this list is really top-heavy. Can anyone suggest more reasonable schools open to giving IIs to high stats, or a good strategy for what I should be looking for in MSAR?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Can I ask what the disadvantages are to being a reapplicant? Can they be circumvented?

Also, I know that applications are considered holistically and it's kind of hard to quantify things so blandly, but what is a good target number to aim for for my ECs to be competitive for the top 20? 200 hours of clinical volunteering? 500 non-clinical? My karate teaching is definitely volunteering, but does it hurt my app that my volunteer hours are so focused into the one activity?

Reapplicants in some ways are at a unique disadvantage for the schools where your stats are in line with. Many top schools do not tend to favor reapplicants. Re-applicants are often going to be viewed as "riskier" candidates. The question will always be asked "Why couldnt they be accepted the first time?" When someone has stats this high, many will presume you had interviews but couldnt capitalize. In somes ways youll be looked at damaged goods to some extent. Some might assume you have flaws not readily apparent and get uneasy with your app. For top schools that dont have to worry about "riskier" applicants as they get so many 4.0/38 applicants who are first tiem applicants with balanced ECs, in a number of situations theyll pass on the reapplicant 4.0/38 unless they bring something really compelling. And like you said, the lower tier schools dont interview many 4.0/38 candidates. So it puts you in a tougher spot to some extent; and this is especially true because many reapplicants have success with their state school but your state happens to be very very competitive.

As a reapplicant it is all the more imperative to get everything in order. Do not reapply until you have. Obviously you can still get into medical school just fine and probably still generate lots of interest at many schools if you fix these weaknesses. But just applying again blindly not fixing your flaws is not something I would recommend.

Clinical volunteering is a good thing to pick up on. You have volunteering through karate, but what can really make a difference is "service" based volunteering ie volunteering for hte least fortunate and most vulnerable popuations. Trying to have something to show for your research time as well be it a paper, poster, glowing LOR etc is also a thing to look at.

 

[WedgeDawg]

You have a couple options here. You could try for a Hail Mary and do shotgun approach to top 20 + maryland + mid tiers (Hofstra, SLU, Einstein, UVA, Rochester, etc) and see what happens. You'll likely get into a medical school.

However, if you take another year off and do some clinical volunteering/scribing + maybe some research or look into a project you're passionate about and can produce results in the span of a year, I think you'll be a great candidate for top 20s.

Right now, you have acceptable but unimpressive research, fine shadowing, fine non-clinical volunteering, and no real active clinical exposure. The research + clinical is going be what kills you. Even with 50 hours by application, you're still in the danger zone (that's less than most doctors work in a week to put it into perspective).

If I were in your situation, I would defer a cycle, find a cool biochemistry lab to do a research year in, and volunteer at a hospital ED for like 4-6 hours/week. It won't make your ECs "impressive", but they'll be "fine", and then the shotgun approach will be more likely to pan out.

If you are insistent upon applying this cycle, I would choose 12-14 top 20 schools and then add them to this list:

UVA, Rochester, USC-Keck, Hofstra, Einstein, Maryland, VCU, EVMS, Wake Forest, Dartmouth, and SLU.

However, I would strongly recommend taking the gap year.

 

[Ebha]

Thank you for your input, Goro. I'll be starting with a hospital soon, and had also considered clinics, hospices, and nursing homes, but had never imagined the variety of opportunities out there. I'm not afraid at all to get my hands dirty, so I'll definitely look into some of those suggestions. Would it reflect negatively on my application if I only worked part time for the coming year? Though my lab is "full time," what that really means is 10+ hour days, sometimes 12+ and weekends. With the amount of work I need to do, I unfortunately can't commit to much more than a few hours a week volunteering. Would it be correct to say that my app would be stronger if I worked part time, but could then put forth several hours a week at a couple different places?

Thank you for clearing up the reapplication question, GrapesofRath. Do these top-tier schools look at reapplicants in general for med schools negatively, or only if I've applied to their schools specifically? For instance, if I didn't apply to Stanford the first time around, but did this cycle (or next), would they still consider me negatively, or would I not count as a reapplicant? If the latter is the case, then thankfully, my application this cycle was almost exclusively to lower-tier schools. The only top-tier schools I even applied to were UPenn, Columbia, and Hopkins. My logic was that having lower ECs, I'd be more competitive for some of the lower-tier schools. I guess I didn't imagine that I would get screened out on stats.

Thank you for your reply, WedgeDawg! Based on all the comments so far, yours included, I am looking into another gap year. I might get my name as a second author on a paper for my current lab in the coming months, but it's relatively unknown if we'll have the money to continue with this project (or with my employment!). I'll definitely be trying to find another research opportunity--hopefully one with better work/life balance so that I can sink some extra hours into volunteering.

 

[WedgeDawg]

Generally, if you haven't applied to a school before (meaning submitting the primary on AMCAS with that school's name attached), you won't be considered a reapplicant there, even if you applied to other schools before.

 

[CHoge25]

A recommendation for you OP since you seem to have a very busy schedule with lab and what not..... if you can find say 2-3 weeks off of work for vacation, I would recommend a camp for children with disabilities/life-threatening illness.... You can pick up a lot of hours (say being a cabin counselor for a 2 week camp). Although it is sometimes difficult being around children for so long, if you enjoy this it may seem like a vacation from being in the lab all the time! Also some tutoring/mentoring in under served areas is very rewarding and can only be a couple hours a week and a phone call away.

 

[GrapesofRath]

Thank you for clearing up the reapplication question, GrapesofRath. Do these top-tier schools look at reapplicants in general for med schools negatively, or only if I've applied to their schools specifically? For instance, if I didn't apply to Stanford the first time around, but did this cycle (or next), would they still consider me negatively, or would I not count as a reapplicant? If the latter is the case, then thankfully, my application this cycle was almost exclusively to lower-tier schools. The only top-tier schools I even applied to were UPenn, Columbia, and Hopkins. My logic was that having lower ECs, I'd be more competitive for some of the lower-tier schools. I guess I didn't imagine that I would get screened out on stats.

There are schools that will ask on secondaries if you are a reapplicant even if it is not to their school but generally the reapplicant "stigma" is most from those schools you have previously applied to.

Where all did you apply last cycle

 

[Ebha]

Thanks for the clarity re: reapplication. Hopefully my premature application this cycle won't cost me in the future. And thank you for the suggestion, CHoge25! I don't really have much experience with those camps, so I hadn't thought of it. I have sometimes helped in the past as a counsellor in summer camps that my karate school runs, so I am optimistic that I will be able to manage something like that. I will begin looking.

GrapesofRath, last cycle I applied to:

Einstein
Boston
Columbia
Emory
Hopkins
UPenn
Miami Miller
Tufts
Arizona, both Tucson and Phoenix
Cincinnati
VCU

Another question for those familiar with A Day in the Life of an Adcom--I've been out of school for 2.5 years. If I apply for 2018 matriculation, it will have been for about 4 years by AMCAS submission. As I understand, many schools are a bit more lax regarding their "2 of 3 LORs from faculty" (etc) LOR requirements for those who have been out of school for a while, and I've got excellent LORs from my recent lab supervisors. Despite that, I still intend to e-mail every admissions office for the schools to which I'll apply, just be sure. Is there a best time-of-the-year to send these out, when the offices are getting a minimal amount of e-mails and aren't buried in work?

 

[GrapesofRath]

Thanks for the clarity re: reapplication. Hopefully my premature application this cycle won't cost me in the future. And thank you for the suggestion, CHoge25! I don't really have much experience with those camps, so I hadn't thought of it. I have sometimes helped in the past as a counsellor in summer camps that my karate school runs, so I am optimistic that I will be able to manage something like that. I will begin looking.

GrapesofRath, last cycle I applied to:

Einstein
Boston
Columbia
Emory
Hopkins
UPenn
Miami Miller
Tufts
Arizona, both Tucson and Phoenix
Cincinnati
VCU

Another question for those familiar with A Day in the Life of an Adcom--I've been out of school for 2.5 years. If I apply for 2018 matriculation, it will have been for about 4 years by AMCAS submission. As I understand, many schools are a bit more lax regarding their "2 of 3 LORs from faculty" (etc) LOR requirements for those who have been out of school for a while, and I've got excellent LORs from my recent lab supervisors. Despite that, I still intend to e-mail every admissions office for the schools to which I'll apply, just be sure. Is there a best time-of-the-year to send these out, when the offices are getting a minimal amount of e-mails and aren't buried in work?

Which of those schools did you get interviews at? Hopefully one of them pans out.

Good news is you arent a reapplicant at your state school and most top 20s. Bad news is that many non top 20s that still take applicants with such high stats as yours(ie Emory, Boston U, even Cincinnati, Miami and Tufts) you are a reapplicant. Still it certainly could be much worse. That said I still really would recommend waiting to apply until next cycle. Apply one last time and do it right.

For the LOR question only specific schools can answer this based on their own policies. Email the schools early enough so you have a backup plan in case you need another LOR you didnt anticipate or you cant use one you wanted to. Many schools can be a little flexible with the requirements and as gonnif will say are unlikely to reject someone over a technicality like this. However you really need to check on a school by school case.

 

[Ebha]

Yes, I definitely plan to e-mail each of the schools. Thinking through the months, though, there just never seems to be a good month for it--it doesn't seem like they get any downtime!

I got IIs at Arizona Tucson and Cincinnati. I'm hoping that either of them pans out as well. I don't have any burning desire to go to a top school at all, but it seems like mainly those are my best options, once I take a year to improve my application. I don't know that I'll be able to hit all the key points in the next year, but just to summarize, in order of importance, this is how I should prioritize improving my application?

1) clinical volunteering
2) altruistic volunteering
3) publication/poster/presentation

Thanks!

 

[GrapesofRath]

1) clinical volunteering
2) altruistic volunteering
3) publication/poster/presentation

Thanks!

If you wait until next cycle to apply there's no reason why you cant do at least 2 of those 3. If you apply this cycle there's not much you can do to improve yourself on any of these 3 fronts.

 

[Ebha]

Based on the advice of this thread, I'm strongly leaning toward applying next cycle. I do think that doing the first two of that list would be totally manageable--I'm just not sure that I can accomplish 3) as well. Maybe I'll get lucky and land a full-time or part-time position with reasonable hours and a publication at the end of it, but it does seem unlikely! Those sorts of opportunities seem to be more closely associated with undergrads/grad programs, and less with job seekers three years out of school. I think if I found something with a publication at the end, it would probably mean long hours, and not much time to volunteer. But I'll certainly try and look around, anyway.

Thanks everyone for your advice!

 

[darknecrosforte]

To add onto what others have said and a little extra: It would be beneficial to strategically brand yourself with an overall theme. If you don't portray yourself a certain way, you afford adcoms more freedom to interpret and possibly misinterpret your app/who you are.

Since you may seem like the 4.0 automaton, perhaps by addressing the altruistic, humanistic weakness of ECs in the realm of physical activity, you can "theme" yourself around the sports more to negate the "nerd" image (geriatric exercise leader at a convalescence home, help at a non-profit physical therapy clinic, create easily-distributed fitness education material to help out at a part of the hospital which deals with a lot of obesity or smoking, etc.). This is only dealing with your sports history. You could easily get into music therapy at hospice if you sing well or start a little group to sing for sad people. The point is to introduce as much cohesiveness into your app as possible to create a positive stereotype so that schools feel like they know who you are.

I think altruism is what's missing the most, since it can be argued that the ECs COULD be self-serving. Of course, clinical volunteering is generally altruistic, but be careful with EMT and scribing, if you had plans for that. Lastly, having some pub or poster is probably like a cherry on the app, since your history indicates that you CAN do research (you have lab skills).

Good luck with your IIs.

 

[itnalispy]

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[darknecrosforte]

Community/Leadership:
- taught high school in underserved community for two years

Clinical:
- was weak in this area last cycle-had only undergrad volunteering of ~100 hr total; since then I have started shadowing physicians consistently (4 hr/week - should be about 60 hours by June 1, 2016).
- just got hired as Emergency Dept. medical scribe (will begin official work in April, can expect ~128 hr of scribing by June 1)

Hi. From what is shown here, there is insufficient evidence strongly support the idea that you're altruistic. Shadowing is self-serving because it lets you know a little bit about what you want to get into. Scribing is a job. Teaching is a job. It would be easier to convince others of altruism if you did 2-4 hours per week of menial non-clinical volunteer work over the course of a year. When adcoms think of rural/inner-city PCP shortages, the people with high stats, but "comfortable ECs" don't seem like the type to willingly fill that need. This isn't to discount your achievements. You are definitely a scholarly badass. But choosing to shadow is a less optimal way to address the volunteering weakness. If you can find a way to volunteer AND you enjoy it enough to talk about it with enthusiasm, you're golden.