4-day work week with 8 weeks vacation

[shaniacxr]

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I realize that most of you probably dislike these types of threads, but I have to ask. This question is for those of you who have landed jobs or are currently looking for jobs. GFunk, I enjoyed the thread you have about looking for jobs. May you can elaborate a bit?

Do most partners in a community practices have a four day work week with ~8 weeks vacation? How are most community practices set up? I would like to become a partner, not just a part-time employee.

I realize there are more lifestyle friendly specialties out there, but I feel this one fits me the best. Thanks!

 

[Gfunk6]

I realize that most of you dislike these kinds of responses, but it is necessary.

The short answer is yes it is possible under certain circumstances.

The long answer is much more nuanced.

There are so many different business models in community practice. They are in different locations which have unique parameters for reimbursement, referral patterns, and competition. Also, while many partners prefer to remain hands-on with their business others hire professionals to run this aspect for them. So, your work-week and vacation time as a partner really depends on where you fall on the spectrum of these working conditions.

Ultimately, it's all about give and take. If you want more personal time then you will necessarily pull in less revenue. If this is an acceptable trade-off for you then you can have a four-day work week and eight weeks of vacation. Based on my limited personal observation, I think most partners who are at or past the mid-career phase work under these conditions.

 

[shaniacxr]

Thanks, GFunk. I appreciate your candid response. Anybody else care to repond?

 

[imrt]

Gfunk makes it sound like this is something difficult to obtain, especially just starting out.

I know and have heard of the setup of some other specialties. For example, radiology 12 weeks off a year, ophtho and derm just 1.5-2 clinic days a week. Any rad onc practices like this?

 

[Gfunk6]

Of course! Do locums and you can work two days a year with 363 days off (364 in a leaP year!!!).

Seriously guys what's with these questions? I am half-expecting a post like, "In plastics I've heard from a friend that they pay you to live on a tropical island with your own private jet, yacht and mansion and pay your $1000000000/year with 300 days vacation. Can you do that in Rad Onc?"

It's actually pretty sad to go from Zeitman's editorial to this. I can certainly appreciate where he's coming from.

 

[CyberKnife19]

Thanks, GFunk. I appreciate your candid response. Anybody else care to repond?

Yes, please choose another specialty. Nothing personal, but I do not want our specialty to become littered with people who want to work four days per week, take 8 weeks of vacation per year and choose to become a Radiation Oncologist because it is a great "lifestyle field".

On the contrary, I hope that my colleagues would be motivated, driven individuals that are looking to advance the field through research and other scholarly endeavors during residency (and beyond if they choose a career in academia). Furthermore, we need people in our field that are committed to thoroughly knowing the literature so that their patients receive the absolute best treatment plan, delivered in an empathetic and compassionate manner.

 

[RadOncDoc21]

I realize that most of you probably dislike these types of threads, but I have to ask. This question is for those of you who have landed jobs or are currently looking for jobs. GFunk, I enjoyed the thread you have about looking for jobs. May you can elaborate a bit?

Do most partners in a community practices have a four day work week with ~8 weeks vacation? How are most community practices set up? I would like to become a partner, not just a part-time employee.

I realize there are more lifestyle friendly specialties out there, but I feel this one fits me the best. Thanks!

I'm pretty sure you didn't emphasize this dream in your personal statement or medical school interview. I can understand wanting a good lifestyle... but being a physician requires a life-long commitment to the field of medicine.

You at least owe that to your patients who will be depending on you.

-R

 

[napoleondynamite]

There is nothing AT ALL wrong with being attracted to radiation oncology (or any other field for that matter) because you want a good lifestyle. If that is you ONLY reason for choosing the specialty, then I agree, please choose another specialty. But if you gravitate toward family-friendly fields and then find that radonc is a good fit, well, I call that a smart, forward-thinking decision, not necessarily a greedy one.

Some of the best, smartest attendings I work with have a 4 day work week with plenty of vacation. Why do we have to perpetuate the myth that in order to be a good doc you must lay all of your hobbies and family life on the alter of medical sacrifice? Get real.

I love radiation oncology. There is no other specialty that would even come close to satisfying me in all of the ways that this one does. But I myself would not have found it without first making the decision to explore the handful of "lifestyle" specialties.

 

[thesauce]

I realize that most of you probably dislike these types of threads, but I have to ask. This question is for those of you who have landed jobs or are currently looking for jobs. GFunk, I enjoyed the thread you have about looking for jobs. May you can elaborate a bit?

Do most partners in a community practices have a four day work week with ~8 weeks vacation? How are most community practices set up? I would like to become a partner, not just a part-time employee.

I realize there are more lifestyle friendly specialties out there, but I feel this one fits me the best. Thanks!

I would just assume that you'll be working 5 days and 50 hrs/wk. I say this because a) that's the most common scenario and b) with upcoming healthcare reform, it's likely to become even more prevalent.

If you can't justify your choice with this schedule, you might be better suited for another specialty. Good luck!

 

[imrt]

There is nothing AT ALL wrong with being attracted to radiation oncology (or any other field for that matter) because you want a good lifestyle. If that is you ONLY reason for choosing the specialty, then I agree, please choose another specialty. But if you gravitate toward family-friendly fields and then find that radonc is a good fit, well, I call that a smart, forward-thinking decision, not necessarily a greedy one.

Some of the best, smartest attendings I work with have a 4 day work week with plenty of vacation. Why do we have to perpetuate the myth that in order to be a good doc you must lay all of your hobbies and family life on the alter of medical sacrifice? Get real.

I love radiation oncology. There is no other specialty that would even come close to satisfying me in all of the ways that this one does. But I myself would not have found it without first making the decision to explore the handful of "lifestyle" specialties.

I agree with this. Is it possible a happy doc is a better doc?

And any way you look at it, there's absolutely nothing wrong with knowing what's out there. The employers / practices you buy into who make money off your blood, sweat, and tears know, so why shouldn't you? As Gfunk said, it is necessary.

 

[OTN]

There is nothing AT ALL wrong with being attracted to radiation oncology (or any other field for that matter) because you want a good lifestyle. If that is you ONLY reason for choosing the specialty, then I agree, please choose another specialty. But if you gravitate toward family-friendly fields and then find that radonc is a good fit, well, I call that a smart, forward-thinking decision, not necessarily a greedy one.

Some of the best, smartest attendings I work with have a 4 day work week with plenty of vacation. Why do we have to perpetuate the myth that in order to be a good doc you must lay all of your hobbies and family life on the alter of medical sacrifice? Get real.

I love radiation oncology. There is no other specialty that would even come close to satisfying me in all of the ways that this one does. But I myself would not have found it without first making the decision to explore the handful of "lifestyle" specialties.

👍

Couldn't have said it better.

 

[seper]

Bottom line, less than 5d/week is increasingly unlikely at the beginning of RadOnc career. As for vacation, median is like 5 weeks per year for new graduates, correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[napoleondynamite]

Seper,

You may be correct that it is becoming less likely in certain regions and for certain jobs. But it is certainly possible - always a tradeoff with money and other factors to consider, but if time off is a high priority, it seems to me that there are a fair amount of jobs out there in private practice that offer a very good lifestyle if that is a high priority.

For me personally, I'm actually leaning toward academics, so a 4-day work week with 8 weeks of vaction may not be in the cards for me. But I defend others' right to seek after that if that is your thing!

I was simply challenging the idea that it is somehow "wrong" to consider lifestyle factors as a medical student in examining specialties. Radonc is an extremely important, awesome job. But it is a job. Some admirable souls devote their entire life and all of their free time to their job, but those people are in the minority. There is nothing wrong with living a life of radonc. But there is also nothing wrong with living, well, life as a radonc.

It just drives me a little crazy that sometimes if med students ask a question about lifestyle that the assumption is that this is their sole consideration. Quite honestly, for me, lifestyle was an extremely important consideration. If we are all being honest, I think most of us probably gave it some thought when we chose radonc. But that DOES NOT mean that you only have a superficial commitment to the field or to your patients. As someone above said, sometimes a well-balanced life can make you an even better doctor. I happen to believe that.

We're nice, happy people in this field. I just don't want to see us run other nice, happy people out on a rail for asking if they will still be nice and happy a few years down the line.

 

[seper]

the importance of work is clearly overemphasized in our society 🙂

 

[Gfunk6]

I was simply challenging the idea that it is somehow "wrong" to consider lifestyle factors as a medical student in examining specialties. Radonc is an extremely important, awesome job. But it is a job. Some admirable souls devote their entire life and all of their free time to their job, but those people are in the minority. There is nothing wrong with living a life of radonc. But there is also nothing wrong with living, well, life as a radonc.

Let's be serious for a moment. First, Rad Onc is not like Neurosurgery or Trauma Surgery lifestyle, not even remotely. A good lifestyle is inherent in the specialty.

Second, it deals with a deadly serious illness and requires a strong physician commitment to a patient's physical and emotional well-being.

Third, why does it always have to be extremes? Either a person is in it totally for the life-style and doesn't give a crap about anything except money or a Rad Onc is an all-consuming job which occupies every waking moment of your life . . .

This is a false dichotomy and there is a happy medium in there somewhere.

My point? We should all be willing to work a little harder to maintain the sanctity of our profession and, to paraphrase Zeitman, prevent it from becoming a purely technical specialty while the "real" doctors practice medicine. Rad Onc is already a "lifestyle" specialty and this should be patently obvious to anyone who's rotated in the field. There's no need to get greedy and push for more $$$ and time off at the expense of our profession.

 

[seper]

Yep, Radiation Pharmacist vs. Oncologist. Eventually, all RadOnc graduates must decide whom they want to be.

My point? We should all be willing to work a little harder to maintain the sanctity of our profession and, to paraphrase Zeitman, prevent it from becoming a purely technical specialty while the "real" doctors practice medicine. Rad Onc is already a "lifestyle" specialty and this should be patently obvious to anyone who's rotated in the field. There's no need to get greedy and push for more $$$ and time off at the expense of our profession.

 

[subatomicdoc]

As a partner in a community practice who works a four day week with generous vacation, I'll add my perspective.

I spent a year in academics, but after soul-searching I opted to leave a potentially exciting career in academics for community medicine. For me, it boiled down to work-life balance. I didn't feel I could excel at academics while meeting my quality goals for patient care and being a good husband/father. So I left to focus on patient care.

I joined a practice where patient care comes first. Who covers my patients when I'm away is critical, so I want to work with responsible docs so I can enjoy my time off. To hire the best, we want to make the group attractive as a career choice. In my opinion, happy worklife mean better relationships with family, partners, patients, referring MDs, physics, nursing, etc. So far it's worked well for our group and it allows us to pursue other interests, whether that's parenting, playing music, volunteering for medical societies or publishing research.

I do agree with the higher standards of Dr. Zietman and the ideals behind CyberKnife19's and RadOncDoc21's comments. And you need to be prepared to adapt as the specialty changes regardless of hours/vacation. But currently I do not think superior patient care is incompatible with generous time off if your commitment to quality remains paramount.

Caveat lector: don't forget that there is strong selection bias involved when asking these kinds of questions. Those who haven't left academics may not really understand community medicine, and those who have left academics may have done so for a reason and committed to the community path. Feel free to file my comments accordingly.