40~ish lawyer looking to change career paths: msw/psyd/phd?

[twoshrinks]

Hi helpful citizens:
I am a criminal defense attorney working with indigent clientele. I went to law school in my 30s, thinking this was my last degree, but I find myself again with the academic itch coupled with dissatisfaction in my career.
My dream career is to have a private practice where I could provide expert witness testimony in court, perform competency evaluations, etc and other forensic/mitigation work, but also see private patients and perhaps have a mediation practice on the side as well.
I am considering a MSW, but also a PhD in Clinical Psychology or a PsyD.
I may not have the research background to get into any PhD program, and traditionally find math challenging. I'm also concerned about the expense of the PsyD as I am 40~ish and have law school debt still to pay.
I have good credentials: I went to well-respected undergraduate and law school and did well in both pursuits. I have not yet taken the GRE but generally test well.
My questions are these:
--any ideas about the limitations or benefits of MSW over Phd or PsyD?
--are there any more practice oriented PhD programs that don't require so much prior research experience? I understand PhD programs are generally funded, so that has a lot of appeal for me.
--It seems from the forensic psychologists that I've worked with, that they make good money. Would that make it worthwhile to do a PsyD? I'm also limited by geography--what is the reputation of Antioch in New Hampshire?
--is there a viable career to be made with the MSW/JD combo? It is a common double, but usually leads to careers unlike the one I'm envisioning in private practice.

Thanks for the input...

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[2012PhD]

Hi helpful citizens:
I am a criminal defense attorney working with indigent clientele. I went to law school in my 30s, thinking this was my last degree, but I find myself again with the academic itch coupled with dissatisfaction in my career.
My dream career is to have a private practice where I could provide expert witness testimony in court, perform competency evaluations, etc and other forensic/mitigation work, but also see private patients and perhaps have a mediation practice on the side as well.
I am considering a MSW, but also a PhD in Clinical Psychology or a PsyD.
I may not have the research background to get into any PhD program, and traditionally find math challenging. I'm also concerned about the expense of the PsyD as I am 40~ish and have law school debt still to pay.
I have good credentials: I went to well-respected undergraduate and law school and did well in both pursuits. I have not yet taken the GRE but generally test well.
My questions are these:
--any ideas about the limitations or benefits of MSW over Phd or PsyD?
--are there any more practice oriented PhD programs that don't require so much prior research experience? I understand PhD programs are generally funded, so that has a lot of appeal for me.
--It seems from the forensic psychologists that I've worked with, that they make good money. Would that make it worthwhile to do a PsyD? I'm also limited by geography--what is the reputation of Antioch in New Hampshire?
--is there a viable career to be made with the MSW/JD combo? It is a common double, but usually leads to careers unlike the one I'm envisioning in private practice.

Thanks for the input...

I am a 6th year in a clinical psychology program and am currently on internship.

1. One huge advantage of the MSW is length of training: Its a 2 year degree vs. 5-7 years for the PHD and PsyD. You don't have to do research or a dissertation like you would in both PsyD and PhD programs. Its 6 years of lost income and then an additional 1 to 2 years for licensure in our field so you are looking at medical school length training. However, i think the PsyD and PHD would provide you with more credibility and better training if you wanted to be an expert witness or perform competency evaluations. I think the JD/PsyD or PhD combo would give you even more credibility in the courtroom and in the forensic field. How do you feel about not having an income for 6 years in your 40's?

2. If you aren't interested in research at all, I would recommend against a PhD and maybe even a PsyD. You will need solid research experience to get into any good PhD program and some good PsyD programs. Most people have 2 years of research experience under their belt before applying, even for PhD programs that are balanced in terms of clinical work and research. Many people who get into funded programs have publications and presentations as well. I don't know of any reputable PhD programs that are only clinically forcused. Even reputable PsyD programs (e.g. rutgers, baylor) require a fairly intensive dissertation.

3. Cost: Unfunded PhD and PsyD programs will cost you 200k. Many professional schools, like antioch, do not have good reputations in the field and have lax admission standards and poor outcomes. Antioch has an APA internship rate of 40-60% in recent years---that is pretty poor. In general, avoid professional schools of psychology. It is harder to land an internship and post-doc (to get your hours) from professional schools of psychology (e.g. argosy, alliant, antioch) compared to solid PhD programs at universities. I don't know how you would pay back your law school loans + PsyD debt of 200K.

4. Income: Psychologists don't make the same kind of money as lawyers overall. Forensic psychologists are clinical psychologists by training. The average income in our field is around 70K. Starting salaries are even lower. I know 2 people who were former lawyers and went into clinical psychology. After graduating from clinical psychology, they were earning significantly less than what they were earning as lawyers in firms not even adjusting for inflation. If you had a booming forensic practice, you can earn six figures, but that would take some time to build and would require excellent business and networking skills.

5. People with geographical limitations don't really do so well in this field. There is fierce competition in our field from getting into programs to getting an internship and post-doc. You have to be geographically flexible to increase your chances of being successful.

 

[2012PhD]

Hi helpful citizens:

My questions are these:
--It seems from the forensic psychologists that I've worked with, that they make good money. Would that make it worthwhile to do a PsyD? I'm also limited by geography--what is the reputation of Antioch in New Hampshire?
--is there a viable career to be made with the MSW/JD combo? It is a common double, but usually leads to careers unlike the one I'm envisioning in private practice.

Thanks for the input...

--When examining programs, look at outcomes posted on their website. Antioch has a 60% acceptance rate, 48% apa internship rate in 2010, close to 20% attrition rate. These are all red flags. Apa internship is the gold standard in terms of training and employment opportunities. If you were an expert witness, you would want to go to a reputable program and get excellent training. Plus, i am not sure about the intellectual caliber of the students in a program that accepts most people who apply. My guess is that its quite mixed. Not sure you would be challenged there if you went to a good law school. Your best bet is to get some research/clinical experience in the field and apply to reputable PhD or PsyD programs. Good PsyDs are part of universities (e.g. rutgers, baylor, pepperdine) and not freestanding schools.

--I don't know about the MSW/JD combo in terms of competency evals. I have seen lawyers do mediation without a psych or msw degree.

 

[cara susanna]

I don't think it will be easy to be an expert witness without a research background. You'll get slammed on the stand if you don't have knowledge of research on the issues at hand and the ability to interpret said research.

 

[PhDToBe]

Sam Houston State University (probably out of your geographic range) has a Ph.D. program in clinical psych that requires very little research (thesis and dissertation only, but more if you want). It is funded and also a little bit easier to get get into than most other programs with forensic concentrations/professors. I think they would appreciate your J.D. too.

 

[grouPresearcher]

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[wigflip]

My wonderful undergrad adviser just served as an expert witness for a high profile case, but she graduated from Harvard and has decades of publications. As others have suggested, I think it might be difficult to serve as an expert witness without a doctoral degree and perhaps developing a love of stats (something I lack!😉).