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deleted1103446
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deleted1102296
Take the A. There is no guarantee that you'll get accepted into a cheaper school.
The $150-200k difference of a cheaper school if offset by losing 1 year's salary. Just "Sacrifice" that extra year and live in a less desirable area where you'll make $200k your first year out (e.g. not NYC or SF).
The $150-200k difference of a cheaper school if offset by losing 1 year's salary. Just "Sacrifice" that extra year and live in a less desirable area where you'll make $200k your first year out (e.g. not NYC or SF).
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Being a younger dentist that graduated within the last five years, I would say re-apply or consider another health profession. The 400K+ of debt would hinder you from building good wealth. On top of that, you'll likely have a mortgage and potentially a practice loan on top of that afterwards. Most of your early career would be trying to pay down that 400K of debt, not to mention the interest rate over time. If you get into a cheaper in-state school that would be ideal.
Over the years, I've gone from advocating to going to any dental school that accepts you to instead consider the financial risks involved. For example, going into PA school that's 3 years long, coming out with much less debt and getting benefits (401K, insurance, etc) goes a long way. A lot of private practices don't offer those added perks so I find myself paying student loans, managing my own retirement plans and paying for all my insurances (disability, life, health, dental, vision, etc.)
Just my two cents but I see friends that have heavy debt and it is definitely a stress factor.
Over the years, I've gone from advocating to going to any dental school that accepts you to instead consider the financial risks involved. For example, going into PA school that's 3 years long, coming out with much less debt and getting benefits (401K, insurance, etc) goes a long way. A lot of private practices don't offer those added perks so I find myself paying student loans, managing my own retirement plans and paying for all my insurances (disability, life, health, dental, vision, etc.)
Just my two cents but I see friends that have heavy debt and it is definitely a stress factor.
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deleted1102296
Depends. If you run back to Cali/NYC you'll be lucky to make 100-120k (pre-tax) first year out, but if you live in the south or midwest $200k is very doable (140k post tax).
You should live on $30k/year or less for the first 1-2 years and aggressively pay off your loans. Just pretend you're still a student (Or medical resident). You don't need a brand new BMW until 5+ years after school when your loans are $0 or close to it.
You need $1k rent (max), $400 car/insurance (can be cheaper), $300 food, $150 clothes/entertainment, $200 insurance. That's $24k and you could push it down more. Live like that for 2 years and put everything towards your loans
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deleted1102296
OP is already far enough in the process that it makes more sense to continue, but I 100% agree with you. I encourage anyone in high school to look into 5-year BS/PA programs. Graduate at 23 with <100k debt and make $120k with more flexibility and a great work-life balance than any other career.
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No, you don't count the other expenses because those are expenses you have to pay anyway. Taxes will be pretty much the only expense, and your numbers are saying that a dentist makes 40k-66k after taxes, which is extremely far from the truth, even for new grads. Realistically, it evens out with 1-2 years of income for 150k-200k.
This is not true at all, and I live in NYC.
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I'm not talking about paying off your living expenses, I'm talking about opportunity cost. You don't count living expenses into opportunity cost because you have to pay them anyway (assuming nothing changes). You are basing your loan money to your salary. If your loan money is inclusive of your living money for dental school, then taking out living expenses from your salary would not make sense.
For example, if your loan money is 110k a year, you're getting 110k a year for loans, not 90k because "whose gonna pay your living expenses." Now if you get 120k a year salary, taxes are the only thing real thing you need to deduct, and you'll probably get 80k-90k a year, not 60k because living expenses.
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deleted1102296
Assuming you're living "rent-free" with your parents right now your expenses probably look something like
Rent: $0
Food: $200-$300
Car/gas/ins: $400
Misc: $400
The only thing you need to change as a dental student or first year dentist is rent ~$1k. You don't need to live lavishly on $50-70k, and if you're married then hopefully your spouse will have a good income or also be a dental student/dentist and split the costs with you.
Where do you plan on living/working as a dentist and give us a break down of your projected expenses
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Since, for the 2024 class, the mean gpa was 3.49/3.58 with an AA of 20.8/TS 20.4 one can hardly suggest that your stats are "not competitive".
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deleted1102296
Averages don't really paint the whole picture. Geographical location, race, experiences, essays, trend, etc can play a big role. Someone with a 2.5 uGPA but a 4.0 post bacc or dental-SMP GPA would bring down the average on paper, but Is a more competitive applicant than most. Basically, there's no guarantee OP can get into their preferred school of choice, and I'd be willing to bet the cheaper in-state schools are more sought after
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Swoosh!
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Reapply. 440k in debt is insanely high and if you're 100% responsible for that it could weigh on you for the rest of your life. There's a reason why people do not advise going to schools like USC or NYU that have costs upwards of 500k
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Personally I would not do it.
You will literally probably be spending at least a decade just paying it off. Not worth it imo.
Yes you theoretically could live like a college student into your 30s to help pay off debt...but why? That kinda sucks. Spending your 30s building wealth is much more preferable than just trying to pay off debt. I'd rather just pursue something else. You are a capable and smart person based on your stats and could be successful in many other fields.
What state are you a resident in? Any state school?
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I agree with the poster who recommended the OP to take the acceptance offer. How much more can you save by reapplying? And there’s no guarantee that you’ll get into a cheaper school next year. $440k is still way cheaper than going to expensive schools like USC, BU, NYU. Even cheap state schools like UCLA and UCSF cost more than $300k to attend.
I’d rather be a broke dentist a year sooner than being a broke student, who gets zero respect from others, for another year. Facing hardship (high student loan debt) helps motivate a person to work harder and try harder to achieve bigger goal in life. Most successful dentist owners I know don’t have wealthy parents who helped pay for everything. Many of them had a lot of student loan debts. With the high amount of debt, they are more careful with how they spend their money…..ie setting up low a overhead office, hiring fewer staff and doing many of the work by themselves, and working 6 days/wk (part time at their own office and part time for corp office).
Don't just settle for $120-150k a year associate salary. You have to dream big. Dentistry is one of the few professions that give you the opportunity to become a practice owner. The sooner you get out and the more experience you gain from working, the better it will be.
I’d rather be a broke dentist a year sooner than being a broke student, who gets zero respect from others, for another year. Facing hardship (high student loan debt) helps motivate a person to work harder and try harder to achieve bigger goal in life. Most successful dentist owners I know don’t have wealthy parents who helped pay for everything. Many of them had a lot of student loan debts. With the high amount of debt, they are more careful with how they spend their money…..ie setting up low a overhead office, hiring fewer staff and doing many of the work by themselves, and working 6 days/wk (part time at their own office and part time for corp office).
Don't just settle for $120-150k a year associate salary. You have to dream big. Dentistry is one of the few professions that give you the opportunity to become a practice owner. The sooner you get out and the more experience you gain from working, the better it will be.
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deleted1102296
This is another thing. Delaying a year/reapplying may save OP $100k or might ONLY get into a more expensive school ($500-600k like USC/NYU/Midwestern) etc especially with tuition going up 3-8% a year.
Plus, the burnout from reapplying can be demotivating and make it harder to get back into the grind of academics since OP will compare her/himself to others who are doing "better" at the same age or younger.
Instead of wasting a year with added stress and fear, it's better to just work 6 days a week for the first year and clear >200k.
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deleted994703
do u mind sharing what school you got accepted to?probably gonna reapply if I don't get accepted to waitlisted schools!
Agree with everything said here. The average OOS tuition for dental school nowadays is around 430k. You could try to get into your state school or a cheaper public school that offers in-state tuition after one year but that’s no guarantee. And the potential savings might not be worth a lost year anyways.
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You're thinking of reapplying, wasting another year, 2k on apps and interview, an opportunity cost of 80k+, and potentially not getting in because you want to save 40k?
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Are you saying your COA is lowered by 40k between the school you're accepted to and the school you're waitlisted at? If so, then that's saving 40k. Can you show your math? Where are you getting 40k from and where are you getting 200k from?
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deleted1102296
You will not "save $200k" you will actually lose money, here's why.
If you can get into a cheaper school next year, why didn't you do It this year? You become more "stale" (older classes, DAT, experiences, etc) and you give up one year's salary ($120-150k post tax) with no guarantee. You also lose/delay one year of building your name/patient roster, which if you start this year will pay off BIG at the end of your career (where you'll make $250k+)
reapplying to save 40k is seriously ridiculousI think the best case scenario is to get off the waitlist (hopefully
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deleted1102296
OP is reapplying to "save $200k". But missing the point that tuition increases 3-8% a year (for all 4 years), so a $200k school suddenly becomes 215k + interest on the increase. Not to mention lost year's salary and other stuff mentioned above. They don't teach basic math in college these days
It's like pouring in more money when you're losing at the casino cuz you think the next time will be different and you'll make it all back
Even without taking the tuition increase into account. The fact that youre not guaranteed to get into a cheaper school, not to mention by the end of your career a year of income should be well above $200k. Its not worth it in any situation IMO.
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deleted903013
440k without interest will be much larger than half a million by graduation. Dental school simply isn't worth it at that price. I'd live at home while working full time to offset potentially lost income, reapply to my state school and HPSP simultaneously, and also look for alternative cheaper careers.
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Working full time with an undergrad bio degree (presumably) you could maybe save up like $30k. That doesnt offset anything but the yearly increase in tuition. Most schools are expensive enough that you cant bank on getting into one thats so much cheaper that reapplying would be worth it. OP, if you want to be a dentist, take the acceptance.
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One thing that I didn't see mentioned but is very important nonetheless is you will have to mark down on the application that you previously applied and you were accepted. This is going to raise a big red flag to schools since they will see that you had the chance to become a dentist and you turned it down. They might question your commitment. Also, I agree with those that are saying there's no guarantee you'll get in next year to a cheaper school, what if you get into USC or NYU and now you'll be more than 600K+ in debt, will this risk have been worth it? Obviously not. Tbh, I don't think 440K is that bad, especially for a private school, like UCLA is about 375K pre-interest, and it's a state school etc...
I'm very tempted to add a poll to this thread for those that have an opinion but do not want to comment, since it is a big discussion topic! 👍? 👎?
I'm very tempted to add a poll to this thread for those that have an opinion but do not want to comment, since it is a big discussion topic! 👍? 👎?
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Just go. There's no guarantee that you'll get in next cycle and your 1+ year loss of dentist income will probably be far greater than the 440k (or even 200k savings). It seems a lot at first since you're still a student, but once you hit your stride in dentistry and dental income, that 1 year loss is easily offset in less than one year.
The price of a year in your PRIME is worth way more than 200k AND being a dentist for an extra year will easily pay for it. If you live to be 50, you'll have wasted 2% of your life waiting.
The price of a year in your PRIME is worth way more than 200k AND being a dentist for an extra year will easily pay for it. If you live to be 50, you'll have wasted 2% of your life waiting.
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Shoulda woulda coulda. Take that 440k and maybe learn sooner how to make up that 200k. The only way I would delay is if I had a guaranteed acceptance to the state school. Otherwise, it is too much of a gamble/headache for me. @artist2022 brings a good point. If you get accepted to a dental school/decline and adcoms find out the following year, they might question your decision making ability. No good answer can come out of "why did you decline?"? If you say $$, well it either shows you didn't research the price tag enough or you thought it through.
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OP put this post on dental town which is like SDN but for dentists.
I am fairly confident in saying the vast majority would agree with this opinion:
Eh, a student can easily spin why they turned down an A. Especially during these times/covid. Not encouraging a student to lie on their application or in an interview but I don’t think a student would be scrutinized to the same degree as previous years. But with that being said, turning down an offer never helps. At best there’s no effect.
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Don't reapply man! So many would kill for that spot of yours. 440k? That's reasonable tuition nowadays unfortunately, but don't forget we are all in the same boat. Cheaper or expensive school we will have to pay back loans regardless. Just think about when you graduate and how there will be plenty of repay options that allow you to still live comfortably and pay your loans. Sky is the limit in dentistry, you can make over a million as a business owner with the right mindset and plan. You got this. Just my .02 cents.
This literally sounds like it’s from me 5 years ago. Exactly the same DAT scores and GPA. I am from Buffalo and really wanted to go to SUNY Buffalo - but my first year applying I only got into NYU. I would have been 7 hours from my family and paying almost double the cost with living expenses factored in.
I ultimately decided to wait a year and got into Buffalo (maybe just barely). It was definitely a risk - but only you can know what it right for you. For me moving away from my family during the most stressful years of my life and paying almost double for school was not the right move so I gambled on myself.
Don’t underestimate the effect of compounding interest when you’re factoring in cost. UB was about 72K (estimated cost, not tuition) a year and I had 50K debt from undergrad. Expected to come out with 300K in debt - but it ended up being 400K because of interest accrued while I was in school. And these were all federal loans. I’m doing residency at a VA hospital (1 yr AEGD and then 3 yr Prosthodontics) so I plan on doing public service loan forgiveness - and there are other programs to help with student loans - including just working a few years for a DSO (not my top choice).
I’m happy to offer some more advice or talk more about my decision/your situation/dentistry in general. Just send me a message.
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deleted903013
I can understand people telling OP to take this acceptance and go, but for the record, 440k pre interest (>500k post interest) is not even close to reasonable.
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deleted1102296
300k is cheap in today's market but also entirely dependent on where you work. A friend of ours finished dental school in WI and ran back to Cali knowing he'll make peanuts. Currently making $125k with $20k/year loan repayment. He could have easily stayed in WI for 1-2 years (worked OT) and made 250k+ (lower taxes, COL etc), and gone back to Cali flush with cash/no debt and taken on (good) debt to open his own shop. However, now he's gonna be stuck working a job he hates (has said so) for 5-10 years just to break even and pay back his loans (if that).
I understand a lot of med/dental students are from Cali/NY and (some) think the midwest/south is yucky, but it's hard to deny the financial benefits.
I ran some numbers in a tax calculator and for example
220k in a midwest/south state = 152k post tax (can live like a king on $35k), 110k left over plus its easier to start your own shop here, write off most expenses and clear $200k post tax
135k in cali = 90k post tax (need 50-60k to live decent), 30k left will barely scratch the interest on your loans
If you're married and your spouse earns as much then gaining financial freedom will be a breeze in the first example
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Oh for sure! I'm probably one of the very few from ND and planning on coming back to the area (or at least close to it). As of now I'm looking at $260k pre interest debt and that's if I give myself a 2-5k cushion each year. I'll need about 60-63k a year but could borrow 65k just to be safe..
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Study like mad when you attend this school; at this price you definitely should (get your money's worth haha). Try your utmost best to graduate practice-ready so that you don't face the opportunity cost of a GPR/AEGD after 4 years of dental school.
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I think its just a matter of today's graduates feeling less ready. Clinical experience at US dental schools is far from equal/uniform. Going to a dental school in a big city or underserved population seems to result in more practice-ready graduates. I've also heard on these forums that your outcome as a clinician after dental school is highly individual. So the people that really bust their butt in dental school have a better chance at leaving practice-ready.
Your second question is interesting! I hadn't considered what changes may have occurred to the job to make a GPR/AEGD more necessary. But no, as far as I know you're never required to do one. I don't think any states require it for licensing either. Ethically tho, if you feel you aren't ready then you owe it to your future patients to do one and make sure you are.
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Lack of confidence and/or promises of being a superGP afterwards. You don't need one in today's job market. Most of the time, you just need a license and a pulse.
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Yes not reasonable decades ago, but is becoming the average price in today's times (unfortunately).
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deleted1103614
Technically, sky is the limit in any field 😅
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reapply next year along with 3 branches of military for scholarships. You have good stats.
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