4th year away rotations?

[eal253]

I'm currently attempting to plan 4th year, and was wondering if anyone has any advice about how many away electives I should do. I am planning on going into OB/Gyn, and am only allowed to do 12 weeks away. Should I go ahead and plan 3 aways (4 weeks each)? Or, as a few of my classmates are doing, should I only do 2?

Also, most away clerkships say they can't guarantee a spot for several months. Are we supposed to apply for more than we can do, then choose? I know it is frowned upon to cancel a visiting clerkship, but I am having the hardest time planning next year without knowing if and when I will be out of state!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

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[RockfordWF]

I'm currently attempting to plan 4th year, and was wondering if anyone has any advice about how many away electives I should do. I am planning on going into OB/Gyn, and am only allowed to do 12 weeks away. Should I go ahead and plan 3 aways (4 weeks each)? Or, as a few of my classmates are doing, should I only do 2?

Also, most away clerkships say they can't guarantee a spot for several months. Are we supposed to apply for more than we can do, then choose? I know it is frowned upon to cancel a visiting clerkship, but I am having the hardest time planning next year without knowing if and when I will be out of state!

Any help would be greatly appreciated!

Almost all rotations should be 4 weeks long. Choose your top 3 residency choices and rotate at these.

Apply to as many as early as possible. Many are competitive. I canceled many of mine that were double or triple booked. Be wary, however, since canceling a rotation will eliminate you from the interview pool.

 

[Ypo.]

Be wary, however, since canceling a rotation will eliminate you from the interview pool.

? Are you sure about that? That doesn't seem likely to me.

 

[RockfordWF]

? Are you sure about that? That doesn't seem likely to me.

Really? Aside from personal experience (I was not offered an interview at 2 places---one of them who told me I was an automatic "in" to the residency--after I canceled both rotations,) you can simply figure out that if you had time to rotate somewhere, and chose to go somewhere else instead----it proves that it is not high on your preference list.

Why would they waste an interview on you, when they can choose from people that are interested?---unless of course this is an undesirable residency.

There are even some residencies that won't interview you at all if you don't rotate there.

 

[lankysudanese]

Really? Aside from personal experience (I was not offered an interview at 2 places---one of them who told me I was an automatic "in" to the residency--after I canceled both rotations,)

run this by me again: how and when did they tell you that you were an automatic "in" if you never actually rotated through their program? was this something that they communicated when they got your CV as part of your application for the away rotation?

 

[RockfordWF]

run this by me again: how and when did they tell you that you were an automatic "in" if you never actually rotated through their program? was this something that they communicated when they got your CV as part of your application for the away rotation?

I had signed up for a second rotation--they told me this after the first month. Shortly after I canceled the second rotation, I received the rejection.

By canceling a rotation, you are telling a program you are no longer interested----no matter how well you did or how interested you seemed in the past.

 

[Ypo.]

Really? Aside from personal experience (I was not offered an interview at 2 places---one of them who told me I was an automatic "in" to the residency--after I canceled both rotations,) you can simply figure out that if you had time to rotate somewhere, and chose to go somewhere else instead----it proves that it is not high on your preference list.

Why would they waste an interview on you, when they can choose from people that are interested?---unless of course this is an undesirable residency.

There are even some residencies that won't interview you at all if you don't rotate there.

Where are you getting all this information from? I'm reading this book on residencies and it doesn't say any of this stuff. In fact most sources I've read say doing away rotations is plus/minus. I've never heard any other evidence contrary to this other than student paranoia.

It would make more sense to me that the vast, vast majority of programs by necessity must interview more people than who rotate there. How could they even fill their slots by only interviewing rotators?

Edit: I see what you mean about canceling an away rotation you had already set up ruining your chances for an interview. But I have to add that that is part of the "plus/minus" of doing an away rotation. If they had never heard of you (instead of setting up and then canceling an away rotation) you would probably have been more likely to get an interview. If you rotate there and someone doesn't like you, you shot yourself in the foot.

 

[docjagermeister]

Canceling a rotation by no means sets you up for failure during the interview season!
1. People cancel rotations for any number of reasons, some of which are entirely out of your control. PD's realize this, and will let your file speak for itself...
2. Depending upon the size of the program, often times the admin person in charge of scheduling rotations is separate from the PD's secretary who schedules interviews. At mid to large programs, one person schedules all rotations for base students and visiting students, and cancels nearly as many everyday. It is unrealistic to believe that they will remember your name and report you to the PD come appication season.
3. And finally, who cares if they know you cancelled a rotation, and see your file float across their desk. Two extreme scenarios come to mind: Firstly, you are an absolute stellar candidate-there is no way they would miss the chance to 'woo' you by having you visit for an interview. There are many examples of applicants choosing middle-tier programs after the visit, simply because they felt at home after visiting. The other scenario, you are an average student applying to an elite program. You are potentially filling out the ranks at the lower end of the program's list, and they know you have everything to prove whereas they can rest on their reputation. In this case they can assume you want them badly, whether you rotated there or not, so level of interest isn't a factor.
And the OP is absolutely right in that an intern class is not made exclusively of those who rotated there... I do agree with the advice that you should rotate to sort out your top programs and maybe garner some LOR's from the best in the field. My advice would be 1-2 very competitive programs in OB that you are interested in (to grab those LOR's), and then 1-2 rotations at lesser known programs that you are attracted to due to location, size, or any other number of factors... Best of luck and sorry for the length (Congrats if you read to this point!)

 

[RockfordWF]

Where are you getting all this information from? I'm reading this book on residencies and it doesn't say any of this stuff. In fact most sources I've read say doing away rotations is plus/minus. I've never heard any other evidence contrary to this other than student paranoia.

It would make more sense to me that the vast, vast majority of programs by necessity must interview more people than who rotate there. How could they even fill their slots by only interviewing rotators?

Edit: I see what you mean about canceling an away rotation you had already set up ruining your chances for an interview. But I have to add that that is part of the "plus/minus" of doing an away rotation. If they had never heard of you (instead of setting up and then canceling an away rotation) you would probably have been more likely to get an interview. If you rotate there and someone doesn't like you, you shot yourself in the foot.

This is exactly my point! Most of my interviews were at places where I never scheduled an interview. The place I cancelled rejected me, and a place I rotated at rejected me as well, due to a conflict of interest with one attending.

When I refer to places that REQUIRE you to rotate there for an interview, I am referring to almost all osteopathic residencies. The allopathic residencies will readily interview you if you never scheduled a rotation...

 

[RockfordWF]

Canceling a rotation by no means sets you up for failure during the interview season!
1. People cancel rotations for any number of reasons, some of which are entirely out of your control. PD's realize this, and will let your file speak for itself...
2. Depending upon the size of the program, often times the admin person in charge of scheduling rotations is separate from the PD's secretary who schedules interviews. At mid to large programs, one person schedules all rotations for base students and visiting students, and cancels nearly as many everyday. It is unrealistic to believe that they will remember your name and report you to the PD come appication season.
3. And finally, who cares if they know you cancelled a rotation, and see your file float across their desk. Two extreme scenarios come to mind: Firstly, you are an absolute stellar candidate-there is no way they would miss the chance to 'woo' you by having you visit for an interview. There are many examples of applicants choosing middle-tier programs after the visit, simply because they felt at home after visiting. The other scenario, you are an average student applying to an elite program. You are potentially filling out the ranks at the lower end of the program's list, and they know you have everything to prove whereas they can rest on their reputation. In this case they can assume you want them badly, whether you rotated there or not, so level of interest isn't a factor.
And the OP is absolutely right in that an intern class is not made exclusively of those who rotated there... I do agree with the advice that you should rotate to sort out your top programs and maybe garner some LOR's from the best in the field. My advice would be 1-2 very competitive programs in OB that you are interested in (to grab those LOR's), and then 1-2 rotations at lesser known programs that you are attracted to due to location, size, or any other number of factors... Best of luck and sorry for the length (Congrats if you read to this point!)

With all of the above stated, if you are tied with another candidate and they never scheduled a rotation, but you canceled yours----the other candidate wins. You can talk about being a "stellar" candidate, but what if there are 100 "stellar" candidates. There is always some minor thing that sets you ahead of or behind the rest.

 

[docjagermeister]

Nope, I believe they would interview both of you for above stated reasons.
Candidate A would be ahead of candidate B if A rotated there and made a positive impression.
Candidate B would be ahead of candidate A if A rotated and made a negative impression (even if B never rotated there)
If neither rotated there, they are on equal footing from that standpoint.

 

[RockfordWF]

Nope, I believe they would interview both of you for above stated reasons.
Candidate A would be ahead of candidate B if A rotated there and made a positive impression.
Candidate B would be ahead of candidate A if A rotated and made a negative impression (even if B never rotated there)
If neither rotated there, they are on equal footing from that standpoint.

I'm more referring to candidate C who canceled the rotation thus making a negative impression, who would be behind candidate D who never did a rotation, but showed interest in the program.

This happened to me and some of my colleagues at several programs.