4th Years applying to DO Dermatology

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fzwarrior

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I am really confused on how this process works. I know that you must complete an internship year before entering an osteopathic derm residency program, but do you still do audition rotations in derm during the 4th year or are these completed during the internship year? Also, has anyone heard if most of the derm programs will still be open following the merger? Thanks for the info!

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So derm rotations are good whether its during your TRI or your 4th year, ideally you'll do both. I'd say electives 4th yr are actually easier to set up for derm since the "showcase" rotations classically in july-sept don't need to be in that time period. Rotations in april or may will keep you fresh in the programs' minds. Most TRIs will do at least a month of derm electives, breaking them into 4 one week rotations. From what I've heard I think the vast majority of programs will change what needs changing and still be around post merger. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Tho it doesn't hurt to ask around wherever you rotate, just in case.
 
From what I've heard I think the vast majority of programs will change what needs changing and still be around post merger. I wouldn't worry too much about that. Tho it doesn't hurt to ask around wherever you rotate, just in case.


I certainly would not brush it off that casually. For a lot of programs, it's not as simple as just quickly fixing something by flipping a switch. We're talking about private practice groups needing to somehow establish a lasting and meaningful relationship with large hospital systems to adequately ensure inpatient dermatology experience. And ensuring that the educational objectives are being met. The AC GME is increasingly becoming more obnoxious and its requirements. The osteopathic dermatology program in my relative area is known for referring all its patients who need to start Biologics or immunosuppressive a for blistering or other chronic serious diseases to our program because they refuse to manage those medications. That is a major culture issue that needs to be reversed, and probably won't happen overnight.
 
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I certainly would not brush it off that casually. For a lot of programs, it's not as simple as just quickly fixing something by flipping a switch. We're talking about private practice groups needing to somehow establish a lasting and meaningful relationship with large hospital systems to adequately ensure inpatient dermatology experience. And ensuring that the educational objectives are being met. The AC GME is increasingly becoming more obnoxious and its requirements. The osteopathic dermatology program in my relative area is known for referring all its patients who need to start Biologics or immunosuppressive a for blistering or other chronic serious diseases to our program because they refuse to manage those medications. That is a major culture issue that needs to be reversed, and probably won't happen overnight.
so true here too!!!
 
so true here too!!!
Can you please post which programs those are because students are not privy to this information. As an attending you do not have to manage all cases that come your way just as not all surgeons do certain surgeries. Still would like to know though. Thank you.
 
Can you please post which programs those are because students are not privy to this information. As an attending you do not have to manage all cases that come your way just as not all surgeons do certain surgeries. Still would like to know though. Thank you.

But as a resident, the ACGME mandates that you have experience managing these medications/conditions. If attendings don't want to have this be part of the practice, that's fine. They just don't get to have residency programs.
 
I certainly would not brush it off that casually. For a lot of programs, it's not as simple as just quickly fixing something by flipping a switch. We're talking about private practice groups needing to somehow establish a lasting and meaningful relationship with large hospital systems to adequately ensure inpatient dermatology experience. And ensuring that the educational objectives are being met. The AC GME is increasingly becoming more obnoxious and its requirements. The osteopathic dermatology program in my relative area is known for referring all its patients who need to start Biologics or immunosuppressive a for blistering or other chronic serious diseases to our program because they refuse to manage those medications. That is a major culture issue that needs to be reversed, and probably won't happen overnight.

So are they just training the residents to be biopsy bots and referral factories? I truly don't know much of anything about DO derm programs. It is appalling if there truly are dermatology residencies that do not manage serious diseases or high risk medications. That information should be out there if it's true.
 
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I don't know much of anything about DO derm programs other than the fact that some of them are huge (11-12 per year)

Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but there are no DO derm programs with more than 5 per year. Most are 1-2 per year making the average program have 3-6 residents total.
 
Maybe I'm misunderstanding what you are saying, but there are no DO derm programs with more than 5 per year. Most are 1-2 per year making the average program have 3-6 residents total.

Thanks for calling me out on that, I was misinformed. Checked and the 11-12 number is the total for the larger programs, not per year. Edited my comment to avoid spread of disinformation.
 
But as a resident, the ACGME mandates that you have experience managing these medications/conditions. If attendings don't want to have this be part of the practice, that's fine. They just don't get to have residency programs.

Can you please share which programs these are so others are aware?
 
So just to confirm 4th year OMS match only TRI, not both TRI + derm?
 
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It's too bad there is not more info regarding match stats and board scores for DO derm. I'm sure it's competitive but the quantitative data is lacking.
 
DO match data for this year

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/students/match-program/Pages/match-results.aspx

Looks like all spots were filled except for the "Tri-country" derm program in Ohio. I don't know anything about this program but looks like there are only two dermatologists in this PP? I am not sure how they could fulfill all the educational requirements for a ACGME derm residency after the merger

That is one of the programs I believe makes you do their entire 3 year Family Medicine Residency in order to be qualified to apply for their Dermatology residency. So it would be 6 years in total length.
 
DO match data for this year

http://www.osteopathic.org/inside-aoa/Education/students/match-program/Pages/match-results.aspx

Looks like all spots were filled except for the "Tri-country" derm program in Ohio. I don't know anything about this program but looks like there are only two dermatologists in this PP? I am not sure how they could fulfill all the educational requirements for a ACGME derm residency after the merger

Actually, a few did not fill or fill completely. It looks like 47 AOA positions were matched while 5 did not fill, and last year, there were 403 matched ACGME spots (ratio .12:1).

For reference, let's look at some other specialties:

--Pathology: 0 AOA spots and 526 ACGME spots
--Anesthesia: 31 AOA spots matched, 1563 ACGME spots filled (ratio .02:1)
--Peds: 51 AOA filled, 12 did not; 2611 ACGME spots filled last year (ratio .02:1)
--Radiology: 21 AOA spots matched, 8 did not; ACGME spots filled last year, 1079 (ratio: .02:1)
--Neurology: 31 AOA neurology spots and 665 matched ACGME spots filled (ratio .03:1)
--Ophtho: 14 matched and 1 unmatched in AOA, 464 ACMGE spots filled and 1 did not (ratio .03:1)
--PM&R: 13 matched and 3 unmatched in AOA, 385 ACGME spots last year (ratio .04:1)
--ENT: 20 AOA spots matched, 293 ACGME spots filled last year (ratio .07:1)
--Urology: 20 AOA spots and 285 ACGME spots filled (ratio .07:1)
--Ortho: 108 AOA spots matched and 3 did not; 692 ACGME spots filled last year (ratio .16:1)

So, despite being larger fields in ACGME, there are fewer AOA anesthesia, radiology, neurology, and optho spots than there are in dermatology. Also, while there are a similar number of ACGME PM&R and derm spots, there are far fewer PM&R spots relative to derm in the AOA match. Does this seem odd to anyone else? I mean we need a hell of a lot more pediatricians than dermatologists, so why does the AOA approve so many derm spots and so few peds/radiology/anesthesia spots? (I realize the answer is probably that most peds hospitals are affiliated with allopathic medical schools and that the AOA probably has low standards for approving derm spots at community private practices that are too cheap to higher a PA).



Looking closer, it seems like some of the AOA derm programs appear to be of questionable quality (this is a random list of only some of the programs)

1. Tri-County dermatology pays 20k per year, has 2 dermatologists, and was approved to fill 2 spots this year.

2. The program at the "Colorado Dermatology Institute" takes 1 resident/year, has 4 dermatologists, no in-house dermatopathologist, but one does have Mohs training.

3. St. Joseph Mercy is in Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI and takes 4 residents/year. I do not understand how a community program can sustain a high level of volume and complex cases in the same town as the University of Michigan, which takes 7-8 residents per year. If that weren't enough, Henry Ford is also a large program (6/year), and has clinics throughout the Detroit metropolitan area. Between Michigan and Henry Ford, I cannot believe there is enough med-derm or non-AD/scabies/impetigo/molluscum peds-derm left over for four residents a year to learn from.

4. Northeast Regional Medical Center in Kirksville, MO (population 17,505), takes 1 resident per year, has 3 dermatologists (none did a procedural fellowship), however, there is a path trained dermatopathologist



However, some do seem OK-ish

1. North Fulton Hospital, Roswell, GA http://dermatologynfhmc.wix.com/gaderm

2. Palisades Hospital, North Bergen, NJ http://www.palisadesmedical.org/Content/106/dermatology-residency-program.html


One thing that I learned during my derm rotations, and something I was cognizant of during my interviews, was that community dermatologists do not like handling complex/weird diseases, and they are more than happy to refer them to the nearest academic center. Similarly, working at a county hospital and/or VA will allow you to see and manage advanced diseases and allow you to develop your surgery skills. Also, dermatopathology is not always cut-and-dry, and having the opportunity to learn from multiple dermatopathologists and see how they diagnose biopsies can be invaluable. I realize not all program have a VA or county hospital (Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, UChicago, Henry Ford, Johns Hopkins), however, these institutions are major hospitals that have a tremendous amount of inpatient and outpatient volume. Looking forward, I don't know how many of the programs will be able to meet ACGME requirements, but given the tremendous breadth of pathology within the field, is it fair to residents or future patients to allow small private practice groups to sponsor residency spots?
 
Actually, a few did not fill or fill completely. It looks like 47 AOA positions were matched while 5 did not fill, and last year, there were 403 matched ACGME spots (ratio .12:1).

For reference, let's look at some other specialties:

--Pathology: 0 AOA spots and 526 ACGME spots
--Anesthesia: 31 AOA spots matched, 1563 ACGME spots filled (ratio .02:1)
--Peds: 51 AOA filled, 12 did not; 2611 ACGME spots filled last year (ratio .02:1)
--Radiology: 21 AOA spots matched, 8 did not; ACGME spots filled last year, 1079 (ratio: .02:1)
--Neurology: 31 AOA neurology spots and 665 matched ACGME spots filled (ratio .03:1)
--Ophtho: 14 matched and 1 unmatched in AOA, 464 ACMGE spots filled and 1 did not (ratio .03:1)
--PM&R: 13 matched and 3 unmatched in AOA, 385 ACGME spots last year (ratio .04:1)
--ENT: 20 AOA spots matched, 293 ACGME spots filled last year (ratio .07:1)
--Urology: 20 AOA spots and 285 ACGME spots filled (ratio .07:1)
--Ortho: 108 AOA spots matched and 3 did not; 692 ACGME spots filled last year (ratio .16:1)

So, despite being larger fields in ACGME, there are fewer AOA anesthesia, radiology, neurology, and optho spots than there are in dermatology. Also, while there are a similar number of ACGME PM&R and derm spots, there are far fewer PM&R spots relative to derm in the AOA match. Does this seem odd to anyone else? I mean we need a hell of a lot more pediatricians than dermatologists, so why does the AOA approve so many derm spots and so few peds/radiology/anesthesia spots? (I realize the answer is probably that most peds hospitals are affiliated with allopathic medical schools and that the AOA probably has low standards for approving derm spots at community private practices that are too cheap to higher a PA).



Looking closer, it seems like some of the AOA derm programs appear to be of questionable quality (this is a random list of only some of the programs)

1. Tri-County dermatology pays 20k per year, has 2 dermatologists, and was approved to fill 2 spots this year.

2. The program at the "Colorado Dermatology Institute" takes 1 resident/year, has 4 dermatologists, no in-house dermatopathologist, but one does have Mohs training.

3. St. Joseph Mercy is in Ann Arbor/Ypsilanti, MI and takes 4 residents/year. I do not understand how a community program can sustain a high level of volume and complex cases in the same town as the University of Michigan, which takes 7-8 residents per year. If that weren't enough, Henry Ford is also a large program (6/year), and has clinics throughout the Detroit metropolitan area. Between Michigan and Henry Ford, I cannot believe there is enough med-derm or non-AD/scabies/impetigo/molluscum peds-derm left over for four residents a year to learn from.

4. Northeast Regional Medical Center in Kirksville, MO (population 17,505), takes 1 resident per year, has 3 dermatologists (none did a procedural fellowship), however, there is a path trained dermatopathologist



However, some do seem OK-ish

1. North Fulton Hospital, Roswell, GA http://dermatologynfhmc.wix.com/gaderm

2. Palisades Hospital, North Bergen, NJ http://www.palisadesmedical.org/Content/106/dermatology-residency-program.html


One thing that I learned during my derm rotations, and something I was cognizant of during my interviews, was that community dermatologists do not like handling complex/weird diseases, and they are more than happy to refer them to the nearest academic center. Similarly, working at a county hospital and/or VA will allow you to see and manage advanced diseases and allow you to develop your surgery skills. Also, dermatopathology is not always cut-and-dry, and having the opportunity to learn from multiple dermatopathologists and see how they diagnose biopsies can be invaluable. I realize not all program have a VA or county hospital (Mayo, Cleveland Clinic, UChicago, Henry Ford, Johns Hopkins), however, these institutions are major hospitals that have a tremendous amount of inpatient and outpatient volume. Looking forward, I don't know how many of the programs will be able to meet ACGME requirements, but given the tremendous breadth of pathology within the field, is it fair to residents or future patients to allow small private practice groups to sponsor residency spots?

Very nice analysis! It is a difficult time of the year waiting for the match result. Best of luck your match! and thx for your hard work on the google doc!!
 
Wow, that is really impressive. Did not know people worked together like this!
 
Wow, that is really impressive. Did not know people worked together like this!

The doc can be edited by anyone, so if you have info about osteopathic programs, please feel free to share the information with potential applicants.
 
Actually, a few did not fill or fill completely. It looks like 47 AOA positions were matched while 5 did not fill, and last year, there were 403 matched ACGME spots (ratio .12:1).



However, some do seem OK-ish

1. North Fulton Hospital, Roswell, GA http://dermatologynfhmc.wix.com/gaderm

2. Palisades Hospital, North Bergen, NJ http://www.palisadesmedical.org/Content/106/dermatology-residency-program.html

It is my understanding that the North Fulton program in Georgia doesn't pay their residents. Not sure how these folks survive...
 
It is my understanding that the North Fulton program in Georgia doesn't pay their residents. Not sure how these folks survive...

Mommy or daddy is a dermatologist and pays their expenses. The other types you see in this type of program are physicians in other specialties that work as an attending to survive while becoming a dermatologist.

Not paying a resident speaks volumes of the place. If a resident helps earn them extra money and they can watch one struggle financially without a conscience, I think you should avoid at all costs.
 
Mommy or daddy is a dermatologist and pays their expenses. The other types you see in this type of program are physicians in other specialties that work as an attending to survive while becoming a dermatologist.

Not paying a resident speaks volumes of the place. If a resident helps earn them extra money and they can watch one struggle financially without a conscience, I think you should avoid at all costs.

So true. And 10 vacay days only per year? :yawn:
 
It is my understanding that the North Fulton program in Georgia doesn't pay their residents. Not sure how these folks survive...

This is the kind of operation that hopefully gets shut down real quick with the merger.

That might be a bit too idealistic, though.
 
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