50% Quota Requirement for SC/STs in Indian Med Schools

[ASDIC]

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The Indian Government now requires 50% of all medical seats going to SC/STs. This has caused a major uproar among medical students, residents and doctors in India. Thousands have gone on strikes and the Goverment is threatening to use force if necessary to bring the doctors back to work.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/india.doctors.ap/

 

[$!n!$+er]

Be a part of protest, visit-

http://yfemumbai.blogspot.com/

 

[medstu2006]

The Indian Government now requires 50% of all medical seats going to SC/STs. This has caused a major uproar among medical students, residents and doctors in India. Thousands have gone on strikes and the Goverment is threatening to use force if necessary to bring the doctors back to work.

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/india.doctors.ap/

what is SC/ST

 

[ASDIC]

SC and STs are scheduled castes and scheduled tribes respectively. they are considered backward and poor, which is not always the case.

The new measure will allow them to get into med schools with ease.

 

[leorl]

SC and STs are scheduled castes and scheduled tribes respectively. they are considered backward and poor, which is not always the case.

The new measure will allow them to get into med schools with ease.

Besides a massive uprooting of social structure and tradition, I don't exactly see what the problem is? Would someone care to explain?

 

[ljl1982]

Interesting article that I found on The Hindu (daily Indian newspaper) online...
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2006/05/28/stories/2006052800020100.htm

I attend medical school in the US, and would like to know how med students in India feel about this issue and article.

 

[medisid]

Interesting article that I found on The Hindu (daily Indian newspaper) online...
http://www.hindu.com/mag/2006/05/28/stories/2006052800020100.htm

I attend medical school in the US, and would like to know how med students in India feel about this issue and article.

in india there are several castes, which due to age old tradition were downtrodden.so after indian independence, they were given reservation in jobs and colleges and other places, so that even with low marks copmared to their general counterparts they could easily get into these places. it was easy coz few of these ppl study and get selected.
for an e.g. consider an all india combined entrance test, 100 seats. 50 seats belong to these reserved studs. a student getting 50 combined rank within all categories would get the last seat in his general category. at the same time usually a guy getting general rank 1000( yes- 1k) but with a rank among his reserved fellows of 50 ( category rank 50) would have the last seat in the reserved 50 seats for them.
this usually is the case and im not exaggerating !!!!!!!!!!!!
there are several other castes among the reserved catogory like SC( scheduled castes,) ST ( scheduled tribes), OBC (other backward castes).
the ST r the worst case with their ranks going far gr8er than 1000....... SC the less worse,............ OBC r the better ones just one step behind generals, though they too fall after 200 ranks.these r the scenario here and i have explained considering the exam for 100 seats total with 5o reserved seats.( among SC, ST, OBC......their share is also fixed by govt)
so for selection in that college the practical result is.
general - within 50 rank.
OBC - within 500 rank
SC - within 1000 rank
ST within 1500 rank
these ranks r the result of an entrance exam where everystudent is given a rank in order of merit , irresepective of category. they are also given their own catogory ranks.
few category studs are able to score good marks compared with general studs. as a result to fill their reserved seats,the catogory studenst with lessmarks compared to general even with very low marks are invited to join.

the sufferers are the general studs who even with getting 60 ranks is not able to get admission while a student with 1000 sth rank is admitted.

there is widespread agitation in india coz the govt has decided to implement this reservation for OBC which was not earlier implemented in its institutions.
the med studs are fighting coz they will face gr8er competition due to decrease in general seats as a result of resvn.
we all know how few( even scanty) seats r available in any PG branch in a college. AIIMS has just 2 seats in diagnostic radiology. so now with 1 more seat gone. how will the studs realise their dreams. in india the UG😛G ratio is also very bad.

 

[medisid]

i feel it is not right to apply resvn in higher courses like PG.
the supreme court had already denied the resvn in DM/MCh courses( superspecialty) then y in PG courses and proferssional colleges.

1) even if the aim is to provide social upliftment, u would be stunned to hear that of the 40 of the 50 resvn studs in my batch are sons of Doctors, sENIOR govt OFFICERS( IAS) AND OTHERS who never neeed any upliftment, they are just there coz they belong to a specific caste which has been named a backward caste. they r more affluent with money , cars etc. so why is this creamy layer of backwards taking all the benefit of resvn,........... if they r in support of social equality, they should sacrifice their seats for their caste brothers who r weak in all respects. then y should i a general stud sacrifice my seat for a backward.

2) if you feel sick u would be going to the best doctor, and if you know the doc did pg seat from reserved cateogory, u would not go. even the backward ppl refrain from such docs in case of emergency...... death knows no caste????
then y should a undermerit stud be allowed to do PG residency than a more merit stud ?????if you r making a specialist then better make a more expert specialist.
india has made a niche for themselves in this world not just coz of INDIA but coz of hard work and merit. if ppl of less hard work and merit gain acces to better places than their counterparts then i think ........
INDIA WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO TAKE OVER CHINA AND WILL NEVER BE ABLE TO DOMINATE.............................IN THIS CUTTHROAT WORLD.

3)when the political leaders become sick they call surgeon from overseas >>>
vajpayye for his knee replacement called the ortho doc ranawat from usa.
and pramod mahajan called \dr. md rele from UK. mind it these docs r not eurpeans but indian docs who left india .........these ppl know what they have done to indian system and how they have spolied it and dont trust the indian docs in emergency.
will these politcians also call beter docs for common masses from usa/uk.?????
THIS IS A VOTE BANK POLITICS. TO LURE THE BACKWARD PPL AND THEIR VOTES..........

4) MAKE A JUDICAIL COMMITTEE TO REVIEW THE RESVN - this was the proposal of striking docs , but the govt has denied it.......coz it knows the judicial committee ( which willbe just in its report) will bring out the truth that neither the poor downtrodden ppl had benefitted from resvn, nor the demand of resvn is right.
if u dont have a school in every village how will you make these ppl go into med colleges. its just the city ppl of backward caste are getting the benefits.

5) if the govt wants social equality, THEN APPLY RESERVATION IN LOK SABHA AND RAJYA SABHA TOO.( THGE INDIAN PARLIAMENT) FOR OBCs AND SC ST.....and women too.......

 

[docmd2010]

Hello, I was just scrolling thru the forums and came across this issue and recognized it as I have a cousin in India that is also in medical school, she goes to a medical school in Bombay (no idea which one) and she ranked very highly on the entrance exam, hence she got in. I am a medical student in the united states and do agree with all of you in the injustice in the recent legislation. I agree with the above post that should this quota continue to exist, than incompetent physicians will be produced. Furthermore, not only will this debacle affect India's health care system (in a negative fashion) but will also affect the global view on Indian physicians. Indian physicians in the United States are highly expected and recruited and have afforded a good rep. amongst the general American public. Should these 'backward' physicians begin practicing in the United States, the indian reputation of excellence in medicine will certainly dampen. Indian competition is already painstakingly cut-throat, there is absolutely no need for a low ranked student to be occupying Indian medical schools when there are well-deserving candidates out there who were unwillingly cut out of a spot because of their socioeconomic class/caste. Just my opinion.

 

[doctor82]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=285534

 

[Llenroc]

The caste system is more entrenched today in India than it has ever been at any point in Indian history. Why? Because these caste quotas have so divided Indian society, that everyone just "wants theirs". They go to the poll box and vote for their caste man who promises to demand more quotas for their group.

Many of these so called backward castes are quite powerful, and they wield most of the power and money in India today. Even in historic times, some OBCs like Banias were known to be the wealthiest of any caste. But once any group has their reservation they don't want to give it up.

The only hope I see for India is widespread civil disobedience. Everyone should get fake caste certificates to undermine the system.

 

[avenirv]

but wouldn't be better to abolish the caste system and ALL indians will be EQUAL as opportunity and rights ? no quotas, no political arrangements a.s.o.
it is 21st century and i think it is time to come together with the civilized world like united states, canada and europe.....

but i do not expect any answer because the people enjoy when they know that from birth they can consider themselfs superior to others.
it is 2006 !

 

[$!n!$+er]

but wouldn't be better to abolish the caste system and ALL indians will be EQUAL as opportunity and rights ? no quotas, no political arrangements a.s.o.
it is 21st century and i think it is time to come together with the civilized world like united states, canada and europe.....

I'm totally for abolishing caste system. India was well on course of slowly (but in right course) on course of eliminating caste system from Indian society. But in late sixties and seventies India witenessed a lack of leadership and decay in morals of those in power. They saw an escape route in caste based electoral strategies to hide their political failures. India had come a long way in eliminating caste system which strictly prohibited upper caste hindus even from being shadowed by a dalit to brahmin families sending their kids in school where teacher would be dalit. Mandal commission was a kinda disaster and death blow to this progressive social movement which had survived against all odds. 20 yrs post independence India was more casteless society than it is now today and its becoming more and more vicious day by day. it takes years if not centuries to make any significant social change, after coming a long way in abolishing this highly inhumane tradition India now seems to have lost her way.

but i do not expect any answer because the people enjoy when they know that from birth they can consider themselfs superior to others.
it is 2006 !

those who consider themselves superior only by the virtue of them being born in upper caste family are biggest losers. They are trying to salvage their self esteem by redeeming their superior caste status. but I see no harm in being proud of one's caste, its traditions.

similiarly when your born dalit and you know from first day of your school that even mediocrity can get you to the places you tend to become complacent and thats the biggest tragedy of resevations.

 

[Llenroc]

India had come a long way in eliminating caste system which strictly prohibited upper caste hindus even from being shadowed by a dalit to brahmin families sending their kids in school where teacher would be dalit.

Let's not be naive and put all the blame for the alleged evils of the caste system on Brahmins. 🙄

You know who perpetuated the most abuse of Dalits in fuedal India? It was OBC's. Why? Because they made up the bulk of Indian society. Forward castes were never more than 5% of Indian society.

Now the OBCs are proclaiming victimhood, when they themselves were responsible for a lot of the abuses of the caste system, against those who occupied a lower social status than themselves.

You can even see this in the movie Lagaan, where the - presumably - OBC villagers abused a Dalit boy until they discovered his cricket skills.

 

[$!n!$+er]

Let's not be naive and put all the blame for the alleged evils of the caste system on Brahmins. 🙄

You know who perpetuated the most abuse of Dalits in fuedal India? It was OBC's. Why? Because they made up the bulk of Indian society. Forward castes were never more than 5% of Indian society.

Now the OBCs are proclaiming victimhood, when they themselves were responsible for a lot of the abuses of the caste system, against those who occupied a lower social status than themselves.

You can even see this in the movie Lagaan, where the - presumably - OBC villagers abused a Dalit boy until they discovered his cricket skills.

who is being naive here? 🙄 I didnt deny that OBC were the main perpetrators of atrocities against dalits but brahmins were never entirely free of any guilty doing. I just gave an example to illustrate the change that has occurred in Indian society. BTW I'm a brahmin.

- Gaurav Sharma

 

[Surya]

NRI's are exempt from the Quota System right?

The reason I ask, is because NRI's are exempt from taking the entrance exam and so on, so I'm guessing that they are also exempt from this system.

 

[Llenroc]

NRI's are exempt from the Quota System right?

The reason I ask, is because NRI's are exempt from taking the entrance exam and so on, so I'm guessing that they are also exempt from this system.

Who knows? At some of these places they have seperate quotas just for NRIs. They have quotas for young widows. They have quotas for politicians' kids. They have quotas for Kashmir war orphans. It's pretty ridiculous, and when they're all added up, there aren't many general seats that one can compete for.

 

[DrGarfield]

The Indian Government now requires 50% of all medical seats going to SC/STs.
http://edition.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/asiapcf/05/20/india.doctors.ap/

Correct your facts. there's proposed 49% reservation which covers not only SC/ST but 27% of it is actually for OBCs or so called Socially and Educationally backward class (SEBC)- these are castes suggested regionally by the Baxipanch.

 

[DrGarfield]

the ST r the worst case with their ranks going far gr8er than 1000....... SC the less worse,............ OBC r the better ones just one step behind generals

The worst case are usually Nomadic Tribes- OBC and SCs are almost at par with the general merit- may be 2-3% marks behind.

40 of the 50 resvn studs in my batch are sons of Doctors, sENIOR govt OFFICERS( IAS) AND OTHERS who never neeed any upliftment

This first generation of SC/ST/OBC doctors and gove officers was Possible only because of the reservation policy. At the time of independence there was no probability of thinking about someone from this social strata to get to this position.

if you feel sick u would be going to the best doctor, and if you know the doc did pg seat from reserved cateogory, u would not go. even the backward ppl refrain from such docs in case of emergency...... death knows no caste????

Reservation gives Entry into medical college, it doesn't let them pass out at lower ranks or lesse skills. to say that a general merit doctor is a better clinician is talking bull****.
Dr. Prabhakar- the appointed orthoapedic surgeon for the Governor of Gujarat is an SC doctor.
Dr. Death (Dr. Dipak Patel-of Australia via USA) was a general category student. So you're right- Death knows no caste!

if the govt wants social equality, THEN APPLY RESERVATION IN LOK SABHA AND RAJYA SABHA TOO

There already IS reservation policy application in political representation. You never voted.

Should these 'backward' physicians begin practicing in the United States, the indian reputation of excellence in medicine will certainly dampen.

Another bull****. If a "Backward" doctor comes to USA, wouldn't he have passed the USMLE all parts like yourself? Won't he recieve american training as well? In that case why do you think indian reputation will suffer?- You are only afraid that competition in USA for you will be worse- because of more doctors rolling out of India because of the reservation system.

If you think of the healthcare system of India soooo dearly stayin there in USA, why don't you consider returning to India and working at a Community health centre after finishing your MD?

some OBCs like Banias were known to be the wealthiest of any caste.

Correction again- Baniyas are NEVER considered to be included in OBCs or any other form of backward caste.

but wouldn't be better to abolish the caste system and ALL indians will be EQUAL as opportunity and rights ?

*Applause* That, I think was most sensible post, but dear, the caste system has stayed here for 5000 years, so you can't expect it to be forgotten in 50 years post independence. what ever educational, social and financial rights these castes were deprived of for 5000 years, they will atleast require 4-5 generations time to gain back and stand together with the rest of society.

The Problem is that those who are already standing higher think that this new recruit in their line Stinks, and that's why they are making all this hoopla about the reservation without understanding the basic facts.

when your born dalit and you know from first day of your school that even mediocrity can get you to the places you tend to become complacent and thats the biggest tragedy of resevations.

Fully agreed!!

NRI's are exempt from the Quota System right?

Right, NRIs have to be exempt from ALL the rules that apply to Indians, if they are not holding Indian citizenship. So this is natural. You can't be living in USA and crying about social discrimination in India and begging for a Seat in College for it- it's straight!

At some of these places they have seperate quotas just for NRIs. They have quotas for young widows. They have quotas for politicians' kids. They have quotas for Kashmir war orphans.

NRI quotas are not the Government thing. It's just easy money making thing for self financed institutes.

Quotas for yound widows is in class 3-4 government services and that too in a miniscule proportion- may be not even 0.01% of it being used.

There is NO quota for politicians' kids- its a different matter that they find their ways around laws.

kashmir war orphans and kashmir evacuation refugees didnt get any Quotas. only those who were already studying medicine or any discipline in Kashmir before they had to flee, were allotted supernumerary seats at allocated colleges nationwide by government so that they could continue their studies. That was a completely fair decision and noone can challange its integrity.

There are some quotas in some institutes at graduate level for orphans of defence service personnels- but do you want to object to that???


Finally-
if everyone is just worried about the Quality of doctors that would be rolled out because of the quota system, think about this

Why there are no protests against those who take admissions in Russia, China, Ukraine and other such nations at 50% marks and then return to India to practise??? Doesn't That harm the quality? I know they have to pass the MCI examination, but don't the caste based reservation candidates also pass the MBBS or MD/MS examinations that's same as that passed by the General candidate???


Why are there no protests against the huge private/ self financed medical- engineering colleges that have mushroomed across India, that have large proportion of Management Quotas and Donation seats on which rich people's kids with 50-60% marks get admissions without and Caste Discrimination?? Isn't this the Reservation Quota for the Rich?? why not oppose That reservation??

So- when the crowd cries FOUL about reservation, what is in their mind is not Quality, not Resources- the only thing in their mind is that The person on the seat next to mine in the college might stink, cause he might be from a lower caste!

 

[uhoh!]

..when the crowd cries FOUL about reservation, what is in their mind is not Quality, not Resources- the only thing in their mind is that The person on the seat next to mine in the college might stink, cause he might be from a lower caste..

👍 👍 Very, very true.

The stuff about the miniscule reservations for the widows and orphans of Armed Forces personnel killed/Disabled in action. What's there to object about?

And the part about the Russian grads, and students of the mushroom private med/engg colleges- GOLDEN! Seriously, what sort of quality control do the private colleges, Russian colleges, or even the government colleges boast of? And in the light of the obvious answer (none), it is upto individual colleges to keep up what they think is the best quality..And in many cases, it isn't. So what are we talking about again?

 

[DrGarfield]

So what are we talking about again?

ha ha

 

[antibiotique]

OBC and SCs are almost at par with the general merit- may be 2-3% marks behind.

thats quite an understatement.... i must say

This first generation of SC/ST/OBC doctors and gove officers was Possible only because of the reservation policy. At the time of independence there was no probability of thinking about someone from this social strata to get to this position.

so now that they have achieved good socioeconomic status, why should their kid claim reservations?

Reservation gives Entry into medical college, it doesn't let them pass out at lower ranks or lesse skills. to say that a general merit doctor is a better clinician is talking bull****.
Dr. Prabhakar- the appointed orthoapedic surgeon for the Governor of Gujarat is an SC doctor.
Dr. Death (Dr. Dipak Patel-of Australia via USA) was a general category student. So you're right- Death knows no caste!

all generalisation are wrong...

Correction again- Baniyas are NEVER considered to be included in OBCs or any other form of backward caste.

they are considered OBCs in Bihar.... according to one statistic number of caste claiming OBC status has gone up since the Mandal commission recommendation came out.

*Applause* That, I think was most sensible post, but dear, the caste system has stayed here for 5000 years, so you can't expect it to be forgotten in 50 years post independence. what ever educational, social and financial rights these castes were deprived of for 5000 years, they will atleast require 4-5 generations time to gain back and stand together with the rest of society.

an eye for eye makes whole world blind.... discriminating some groups for their talent makes no sense. Tit for tat is not the way to go.... Dr ambedkar himself recommended 20 yrs time limit for the reservations... rather than gradually tapering off reservations, politician with vested interests are steadily increasing the grip of reservations.

The Problem is that those who are already standing higher think that this new recruit in their line Stinks, and that's why they are making all this hoopla about the reservation without understanding the basic facts.

pls enumerate the basic facts you are pointing to.

Fully agreed!!

so what are you going to do about it?

Finally-
if everyone is just worried about the Quality of doctors that would be rolled out because of the quota system, think about this

Why there are no protests against those who take admissions in Russia, China, Ukraine and other such nations at 50% marks and then return to India to practise??? Doesn't That harm the quality? I know they have to pass the MCI examination, but don't the caste based reservation candidates also pass the MBBS or MD/MS examinations that's same as that passed by the General candidate???

i guess we are not talking about number of attempts here..

Why are there no protests against the huge private/ self financed medical- engineering colleges that have mushroomed across India, that have large proportion of Management Quotas and Donation seats on which rich people's kids with 50-60% marks get admissions without and Caste Discrimination?? Isn't this the Reservation Quota for the Rich?? why not oppose That reservation??

I would like to remind you that MARD and PAMS protested and agitated against private medical college system when they first came into exsistence... but unfortunately like all other mass movement that took place this movement was also crushed... govt also made necessary constitutional amendments to ensure smooth running of pvt college... so what can we do about it?

So- when the crowd cries FOUL about reservation, what is in their mind is not Quality, not Resources- the only thing in their mind is that The person on the seat next to mine in the college might stink, cause he might be from a lower caste!

thats very erroneous way of thinking..... most of the people who are outraged by reservation policies, basically agree in principles of this policy but they are against the way it is implemented. reservations as tool of affirmative action is accepted to most. but what should be its basis? and who should benefit from it? is the bone of contention.

 

[antibiotique]

So what are we talking about again?

yeah there is no qualitative disaparity between a candidate who is ranked no.1 and the candidate ranked 10000. 🙄

 

[$!n!$+er]

The Problem is that those who are already standing higher think that this new recruit in their line Stinks, and that's why they are making all this hoopla about the reservation without understanding the basic facts.

what basic facts are you talking about?

Finally-
So- when the crowd cries FOUL about reservation, what is in their mind is not Quality, not Resources- the only thing in their mind is that The person on the seat next to mine in the college might stink, cause he might be from a lower caste!

well your assumption is fairly stereotypical, but even if for a moment we consider your assumption to be correct tell us how are you gonna convince people that you dont stink when you make an open candidate loose out solely on the basis of caste. Caste based reservation policy is only widening this rift.

Yeah I agree reservation are necessary but to what extent? How is India which has only recently started growing economically that too due to service based and knowledge powered economy sustain its credibility in global market? Why a person who has already availed benefits of reservation for entering medical college should again claim reservation for MD/ DM/ MS/MCh? I dont think they give different education to different castes in medical schools? Indian govt provide reservation candidates wth books, scholarships and hostel allowances.. what disadavantage this people have over open candidate now?

How are you going benefit millions of poor and backward people rotting in villages by providing reseravation to few SC/ST (who are already well off) at AIIMS?

OK you give them reservation in higher institutes of learning, but then why they again want reservation in jobs?

and what about poor amongst open category students?

You know OBC were the people who owned land and resources actually committed worst atrocities against dalits and now they claim backward status. You know one of the criterion for a caste to be lebelled OBC is - prevalence of child marriages in community, so by giving them reservation you are only giving them incentive to continue indulging in unconstitutional practices. OBCs dont have any constitutional mandate for reservation..... this is just a Machiavellian ploy.

If OBC are only2-3% shy of scores of open category candidates then why should they need reservations? cant they be given special coaching by govt?

why do you think even after implementing affirmative actions for black and red Indian in various form, US supereme has repeatedly struck down proposals for reservations?

 

[$!n!$+er]

yeah there is no qualitative disaparity between a candidate who is ranked no.1 and the candidate ranked 10000. 🙄

yeah apparently ..

 

[DrGarfield]

No more arguements, cause I have only thought about the whole thing superficially, and also from single perspective- may be because having finished my studies long back, I'm no longer a probable benefactor of either side of the law.

I myself belong to SC category, and inspite of that I have actually been a strong opponent of reservation policy always- because of the fear that people will judge my as one of inferior qualities because of my caste, and because of the reservation system,

But, the way the anti-reservation protests carry themselves is bitter for people on this side of the line- and that tells how bitterly the Unreserved people feel for the Reserved ones. I've heard slogans like "Stop reservation- prevent the country from going to Dogs" And this is what hurts. Those who are protesting are not just protecting their right- they are outright insulting all the reserved castes. And that's what tells that the mindset about caste discrimination hasn't changed much in the upper caste air-heads yet so many years post independence, and that's what tells that the discriminated against castes still may need some protection of their rights.

We differ because difference of opinions is what makes an arguement, and that is the use of this place.

No hard feelings-yet!

 

[antibiotique]

I myself belong to SC category, and inspite of that I have actually been a strong opponent of reservation policy always- because of the fear that people will judge my as one of inferior qualities because of my caste, and because of the reservation system,

so doesn't it defeat the purpose of reservations? this policy is only making class and caste identities stronger and increasing social ostracisation.

But, the way the anti-reservation protests carry themselves is bitter for people on this side of the line- and that tells how bitterly the Unreserved people feel for the Reserved ones. I've heard slogans like "Stop reservation- prevent the country from going to Dogs" And this is what hurts.

oh you took it literally, what they saying is that country is getting ruined due to these policies and not due to certain kind of people. I agree their are few narrow minded people on this side of debate.

Those who are protesting are not just protecting their right- they are outright insulting all the reserved castes. And that's what tells that the mindset about caste discrimination hasn't changed much in the upper caste air-heads yet so many years post independence, and that's what tells that the discriminated against castes still may need some protection of their rights.

we all agree there is need of protection but in what form and how is the question. Perhaps The JNU formula is the solution.

We differ because difference of opinions is what makes an arguement, and that is the use of this place.

No hard feelings-yet!

no hard feelings here! 🙂