MD 508 MCAT, 3.3 GPA, ORM. WAMC?

[Earthworm Slim]

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I've had zero luck so far this cycle, just 19 R's, 2 Holds, and 17 schools silent after secondaries.

I attended an Ivy during undergrad, left with a 3.4 GPA, did a post-bac at that same Ivy (which is apparently infamous for being difficult) and maintained a 3.3 up until the last year when I got rocked by Bio/Orgo and I got 3 C's and a C+ which brought my overall sGPA to a 3.07 (including undergrad). To be fair, the classes were difficult but I really think I could have done better. My grades took a dive when I had some personal issues (deaths of family friends, breakup with SO of 2 years, etc.) I was also working part-time and doing research during this year.

Outside of academics, my ECs are really the strongest part of my app. I was a Div1 athlete with multiple achievements, racked up over 1500 hours of clinical shadowing/volunteering/paid employment, and 300 hours of research w/ one pub. My letters are solid and I even got to have some physicians I work with send letters to the Deans of their respective alma maters.

My MCAT is a well-balanced 508 (128/126/127/127) and is the only time I've ever taken it.

The schools I have left are:
Albert Einstein
Florida International
U Vermont
Rush
UConn
U Illinois
Sidney Kimmel
SUNY Downstate
Frank Netter
NYMC
Buffalo
Miami Miller
UMass
Rutgers, RWJ
MCWisconsin
Temple
CUSM

I'm on pre-II hold for Seton Hall and Loyola

I've done some research into DO schools but really don't agree with the philosophy and in truth just wouldn't be happy to attend a DO school even if I got accepted, so I didn't apply.

 

[toedrag]

Similar stats and application profile/ECs to you and haven't received any MD love either. May I ask why you don't agree with the DO philosophy? Also, what's your state of residence? FIU, UConn, U Illinois, SUNY, Buffalo, UMass, etc all have a pretty substantial IS bias

 

[Earthworm Slim]

Similar stats and application profile/ECs to you and haven't received any MD love either. May I ask why you don't agree with the DO philosophy? Also, what's your state of residence? FIU, UConn, U Illinois, SUNY, Buffalo, UMass, etc all have a pretty substantial IS bias

Hi, sorry your cycle hasn’t been very fruitful either. I’m not particularly attracted to the central philosophy of spinal manipulation in DO. I find MD to be more empirical and imo possibly more effective in healthcare. I don’t hold any stigma against any DO’s but it’s just not for me. Also, I am and always have been a NY resident.

 

[Dr.Gains]

Hi, sorry your cycle hasn’t been very fruitful either. I’m not particularly attracted to the central philosophy of spinal manipulation in DO. I find MD to be more empirical and imo possibly more effective in healthcare. I don’t hold any stigma against any DO’s but it’s just not for me. Also, I am and always have been a NY resident.

I think the biggest red flag in your application for both MD/DO schools will be your post-bacc performance, the Cs don't look pretty. You're supposed to ace your post bacc with a 3.7+, I understand you had some extenuating circumstances but that might be hard to explain to the adcoms. If you're 100% still gunning for MD only, I would do another DIY post bacc at a local state school and take only upper division BCPM classes and ace them. Another option for your would be to apply to a few reputable SMPs, which can serve as a backdoor to the medical school, however they can be extremely risky.This year's application cycle might be a little difficult for you considering ORM status + below average GPA + average MCAT + Downward trend. I'm sure @Goro or @Faha can provide you with more experienced feedback, but that is just my opinion.

 

[Faha]

The GPA-MCAT grid shows that you have only a 1/3 chance for a MD acceptance. At this late date you could still receive an II in the next month but it is unlikely. Where is your state of residence ? You applied to many state public schools that accept very few non residents with your stats.
Unless you are willing to apply to DO schools you may never have a career in medicine.

 

[Goro]

I've had zero luck so far this cycle, just 19 R's, 2 Holds, and 17 schools silent after secondaries.

I attended an Ivy during undergrad, left with a 3.4 GPA, did a post-bac at that same Ivy (which is apparently infamous for being difficult) and maintained a 3.3 up until the last year when I got rocked by Bio/Orgo and I got 3 C's and a C+ which brought my overall sGPA to a 3.07 (including undergrad). To be fair, the classes were difficult but I really think I could have done better. My grades took a dive when I had some personal issues (deaths of family friends, breakup with SO of 2 years, etc.) I was also working part-time and doing research during this year.

Outside of academics, my ECs are really the strongest part of my app. I was a Div1 athlete with multiple achievements, racked up over 1500 hours of clinical shadowing/volunteering/paid employment, and 300 hours of research w/ one pub. My letters are solid and I even got to have some physicians I work with send letters to the Deans of their respective alma maters.

My MCAT is a well-balanced 508 (128/126/127/127) and is the only time I've ever taken it.

The schools I have left are:
Albert Einstein
Florida International
U Vermont
Rush
UConn
U Illinois
Sidney Kimmel
SUNY Downstate
Frank Netter
NYMC
Buffalo
Miami Miller
UMass
Rutgers, RWJ
MCWisconsin
Temple
CUSM

I'm on pre-II hold for Seton Hall and Loyola

I've done some research into DO schools but really don't agree with the philosophy and in truth just wouldn't be happy to attend a DO school even if I got accepted, so I didn't apply.

Due to the poor post-bac performance, I suggest that it's time to do something else. Medical school will be harder.

To be fair, the classes were difficult but I really think I could have done better.
In all truth, this is easy to say, but your performance begs to differ. You needed to have aced those courses, not merely get Bs. Also, you displayed some judgement issue sin trying to bulldoze your way through things instead of simply taking Ws.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Yeah...Maybe OP could do a DIY postbacc and ace it. Perhaps a few years of work experience or something plus a much higher (516+) MCAT might be needed as well...but that 3.4 SMP is going to be hard to come back from. Had OP had a superb MCAT, or if they were willing to apply DO, things would potentially be different.

 

[Earthworm Slim]

The GPA-MCAT grid shows that you have only a 1/3 chance for a MD acceptance. At this late date you could still receive an II in the next month but it is unlikely. Where is your state of residence ? You applied to many state public schools that accept very few non residents with your stats.
Unless you are willing to apply to DO schools you may never have a career in medicine.

NY. Do you think an SMP would improve my chances at MD for next cycle? I understand it’s a bit of a hail mary option.

 

[Earthworm Slim]

Yeah...Maybe OP could do a DIY postbacc and ace it. Perhaps a few years of work experience or something plus a much higher (516+) MCAT might be needed as well...but that 3.4 SMP is going to be hard to come back from. Had OP had a superb MCAT, or if they were willing to apply DO, things would potentially be different.

The post-bac was a career changer. Have not done an SMP yet but am now considering it.

 

[Faha]

NY. Do you think an SMP would improve my chances at MD for next cycle? I understand it’s a bit of a hail mary option.

You applied to 38 MD schools and may end up with no interviews. There is a message there. MD schools are not interested in you. Apply broadly to at least 12 DO schools and you should receive several interviews.

 

[Dr.Gains]

You applied to 38 MD schools and may end up with no interviews. There is a message there. MD schools are not interested in you. Apply broadly to at least 12 DO schools and you should receive several interviews.

Is a signifcant downward trend and poor performance in a post bacc a huge red flag for many DO schools? OP stated "did a post-bac at that same Ivy (which is apparently infamous for being difficult) and maintained a 3.3 up until the last year when I got rocked by Bio/Orgo and I got 3 C's and a C+ which brought my overall sGPA to a 3.07 (including undergrad)." I wonder how Adcoms are going to look upon that, aceing a 2nd DIY post bacc might clear any doubts though.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

DO schools are more forgiving. IF you ace a second DIY postbacc AND get a 515+ on the MCAT, you might have a shot at MD schools.

 

[candbgirl]

Nobody has mentioned your total 3.07 sGPA. That’s just too low to be considered for MD school and low for DO schools. You have to figure out how to fix that. You asked if a SMP would “improve your chances in the next cycle!” Don’t apply until you have finished the SMP with a 3.7+ GPA!

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

OP, at least like half of DO students don’t actually “agree with the philosophy”, but they are going to get the chance to become physicians. Do you just want “MD” behind your name or do you want to be a doctor?

 

[Earthworm Slim]

OP, at least like half of DO students don’t actually “agree with the philosophy”, but they are going to get the chance to become physicians. Do you just want “MD” behind your name or do you want to be a doctor?

I understand that. Just knowing myself though, I wouldn't be fulfilled by learning something that I just don't agree with at all and would really regret it long term. Of course things might change. If my passion for pursuing medicine overrides my own beliefs then I may consider it, but for now, I want to be an MD.

 

[Deecee2DO]

If you really want to be a physician just go DO. You're stats just may not be competitive enough for MD, all you need to do is suck it up for two years in one OMM class then you never have to look at it ever again and can toss the DO philosophy. There are plenty of DOs that are cardiologists, anesthesiologists etc that completely dumped the philosophy crap after 2nd year and never looked back. Not a big deal. Sometimes you just have to play the game to get what you want in life despite it hurting in the beginning. Some people don't have the chance to be a physician at all, but with your stats you do have a a pretty decent chance (DO), just might not be the MD. You'll get DO IIs and an acceptance most likely so take it and run with it, unless you only want to be a Harvard Neurosurgeon

 

[Mister Significant]

TBH I think if you applied broadly to DO schools you may barely get into one. DO's are becoming as respected as MD's as we go into a future where medicine will embrace psychology and behavior in addition to science and disease. Most of the Orthopedic Surgeons in my area (Metro-Detroit) are DO's. If your going into medicine for the right reasons (helping others), then what ever gets you there (DO vs. MD) shouldn't matter.

 

[Deecee2DO]

TBH I think if you applied broadly to DO schools you may barely get into one. DO's are becoming as respected as MD's as we go into a future where medicine will embrace psychology and behavior in addition to science and disease. Most of the Orthopedic Surgeons in my area (Metro-Detroit) are DO's. If your going into medicine for the right reasons (helping others), then what ever gets you there (DO vs. MD) shouldn't matter.

I agree with your last statement but I disagree with OP barely being able to net a DO school acceptance. He was a student athlete at an Ivy with a 3.3 and a 508, it shouldn't be too difficult for OP to get into a DO school if he applies smart

 

[Mister Significant]

I agree with your last statement but I disagree with OP barely being able to net a DO school acceptance. He was a student athlete at an Ivy with a 3.3 and a 508, it shouldn't be too difficult for OP to get into a DO school if he applies smart

Gotcha, I just have been researching many DO school's average Science GPA's and they all are in that 3.4-3.5 range.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Gotcha, I just have been researching many DO school's average Science GPA's and they all are in that 3.4-3.5 range.

Which is true but he has a 508 MCAT and a student athlete from an Ivy that will offset his slightly lower GPA. DO school, while still competitive, is slightly more forgiving where a higher MCAT can make up for lower GPA and vice versa (to an extent). Also, Adcoms LOVE student athletes

 

[Mister Significant]

Which is true but he has a 508 MCAT and a student athlete from an Ivy that will offset his slightly lower GPA. DO school, while still competitive, is slightly more forgiving where a higher MCAT can make up for lower GPA and vice versa (to an extent). Also, Adcoms LOVE student athletes

That is good to hear that a high MCAT can somewhat offset a lower GPA (hopefully my case). And I can definitely see being an athlete as beneficial because of all the work involved.

 

[chemdoctor]

Just go DO dude...

Apply and see what happens. If you do poorly in an SMP, your chances at MD and DO safe highly diminished ..:

Maybe another post bacc is needed but it’s quite the risk...

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Just go DO dude...

It’s obvs an ego thing for him/her, which is kinda sad

 

[chemdoctor]

It’s obvs an ego thing for him/her, which is kinda sad

Yeah.. I mean not gonna lie, there is a stigma around DOs... but this dude doesn’t have the stats to be picky...

 

[ThrowawayShmoaway]

Yeah.. I mean not gonna lie, there is a stigma around DOs... but this dude doesn’t have the stats to be picky...

Of course there is, but if it comes down to choosing between DO or not being a physician at all, and OP can’t pick the former, then they either didn’t really truly want to become a physician in the first place, or simply can’t get over their own ego and get realistic about his/her chances with a bad GPA and an average MCAT.

 

[chemdoctor]

Of course there is, but if it comes down to choosing between DO or not being a physician at all, and OP can’t pick the former, then they either didn’t really truly want to become a physician in the first place, or simply can’t get over their own ego and get realistic about his/her chances with a bad GPA and an average MCAT.

Couldn’t agree more with you. As a DO, with the recent merger, you get the same specialties, you get the same learning (and additional OMM) and the exact same amount of money!!!

 

[Deecee2DO]

Couldn’t agree more with you. As a DO, with the recent merger, you get the same specialties, you get the same learning (and additional OMM) and the exact same amount of money!!!

Same specialties but you have to work MUCH harder for the competitive ones

 

[chemdoctor]

Same specialties but you have to work MUCH harder for the competitive ones

Meh I guess so. But it’s still doable. I know an optho DO resident. It’s just doing well on the boards right?

 

[Deecee2DO]

Meh I guess so. But it’s still doable. I know an optho DO resident. It’s just doing well on the boards right?

Just doing well on the boards will increase your chances but also research in desired competitive specialty, letters from people that matter (harder to get as a DO because clinical rotation sites aren't as good as MDs), and clinical grades also matter. If you want to match ophtho, plastics, derm, ENT, ortho, NS etc (the uber competitive ones) you have to be an absolute rockstar

 

[Mister Significant]

Just doing well on the boards will increase your chances but also research in desired competitive specialty, letters from people that matter (harder to get as a DO because clinical rotation sites aren't as good as MDs), and clinical grades also matter. If you want to match ophtho, plastics, derm, ENT, ortho, NS etc (the uber competitive ones) you have to be an absolute rockstar

BTW why is it that in my area I see more DO's in Ortho than MD's? Did DO's flock more to Ortho back in the day due to OMM's before it got popular?

 

[Deecee2DO]

BTW why is it that in my area I see more DO's in Ortho than MD's? Did DO's flock more to Ortho back in the day due to OMM's before it got popular?

Good question. Could just be your area but DOs do have AOA Ortho programs they can match at that are less competitive than ACGME programs (and by less i dont mean not competitive i just mean more attainable than a DO trying to match ACGME ortho which is more rare). I think because of the whole MSK edge DOs have youll see more DOs in ortho than other surgical subs but more commonly they are AOA trained DO orthos which is one reason Ortho is somewhat popular among DO grads. If you are interested in matching ortho you may want to hit up the ortho forum on here or reach out to a DO ortho that has gone through the match process im a med student rn so I havent gone through it yet

 

[chlorocruorin]

Which is true but he has a 508 MCAT and a student athlete from an Ivy that will offset his slightly lower GPA. DO school, while still competitive, is slightly more forgiving where a higher MCAT can make up for lower GPA and vice versa (to an extent). Also, Adcoms LOVE student athletes

They do love us student athletes 🙂

 

[Goro]

Is a signifcant downward trend and poor performance in a post bacc a huge red flag for many DO schools? OP stated "did a post-bac at that same Ivy (which is apparently infamous for being difficult) and maintained a 3.3 up until the last year when I got rocked by Bio/Orgo and I got 3 C's and a C+ which brought my overall sGPA to a 3.07 (including undergrad)." I wonder how Adcoms are going to look upon that, aceing a 2nd DIY post bacc might clear any doubts though.

That would be a DOA at my school and many others.

We Adcoms don't know what school is difficult and who isn't. It's on the applicant to do well no matter where they are.

 

[Goro]

Meh I guess so. But it’s still doable. I know an optho DO resident. It’s just doing well on the boards right?

NO, it's doing well on Boards and doing all the stuff that top MD students do as well. Boards are simply used as a screen as to who not to rank or interview.

 

[Earthworm Slim]

It's been two years since submitting my first application cycle.

I just finished an SMP with a GPA of 3.74, and retook my MCAT, scoring a 517 (129/129/130/129)

I'd like to hear feedback on whether these improvements significantly affect my chances this time.

@Goro , would you still suggest that I try something else instead of medicine?

@Faha will MD schools be more receptive to these improvements?

 

[Goro]

It's been two years since submitting my first application cycle.

I just finished an SMP with a GPA of 3.74, and retook my MCAT, scoring a 517 (129/129/130/129)

I'd like to hear feedback on whether these improvements significantly affect my chances this time.

@Goro , would you still suggest that I try something else instead of medicine?

@Faha will MD schools be more receptive to these improvements?

I recommend:

Columbia

Vandy

Dartmouth

BU

Duke

Pitt

Mayo

Mt Sinai

Keck

UCSF

EVMS

U Miami

Hofstra

Emory

Jefferson

Drexel

Albany

Tufts

NYMC

Your state schools

Rush

Loyola

Rosy Franklin

Tulane

Wake

MCW

SLU

Creighton

Wayne State

Netter

NYU.LI

Any DO program. I can't recommend Nova, Wm Carey, BCOM, ICOM and LUCOM, for different reasons. MSUCOM? Read up on Larry Nasser and you decide. LMU has an accreditation warning, which concerns me. CUHS is too new and appears to be too limited in rotations sites. UIW refuses to post their Boards scores, which is fishy.

 

[Earthworm Slim]

I recommend:

Columbia

Mayo

Vanderbilt

UCSF

Is there a reason in particular for these over other reach schools like Cornell or NYU Grossman?

 

[Faha]

In addition to the list Goro gave you, you could add these schools:
Vermont
Seton Hall
TCU-UNT
Temple
Western Michigan
NOVA MD
George Washington

 

[Goro]

Is there a reason in particular for these over other reach schools like Cornell or NYU Grossman?

They reward reinvention.

 

[chocolatejuulpod]

How come Georgetown has been removed from the list of reinvention loving schools recently? @Goro