72% of AOA residencies are still alive

[2021Doctor]

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WEDNESDAY, NOV. 7, 2018

With 20 months remaining in the transition to a single accreditation system for graduate medical education, 72% of all eligible AOA residency programs have now received or applied for ACGME accreditation.

Of the AOA residency positions that were filled when the transition began in July 2015, 6,611 of those slots are now in ACGME-accredited programs.

Currently, 893 of the original 1,244 AOA residency programs eligible for transition on June 1, 2015, have received ACGME accreditation or have submitted applications for accreditation.

Single GME update: More than 6,600 AOA residency positions are now ACGME-accredited - The DO

 

[libertyyne]

WEDNESDAY, NOV. 7, 2018

With 20 months remaining in the transition to a single accreditation system for graduate medical education, 72% of all eligible AOA residency programs have now received or applied for ACGME accreditation.

Of the AOA residency positions that were filled when the transition began in July 2015, 6,611 of those slots are now in ACGME-accredited programs.

Currently, 893 of the original 1,244 AOA residency programs eligible for transition on June 1, 2015, have received ACGME accreditation or have submitted applications for accreditation.

Single GME update: More than 6,600 AOA residency positions are now ACGME-accredited - The DO

are the number of residents that these programs can take the same ?

 

[MADD!!!]

are the number of residents that these programs can take the same ?

Not necessarily.

 

[libertyyne]

Not necessarily.

It would be interesting to see what the end number of residency positions remain. Even with a small 10-20% reduction in 72% remaining programs means a total reduction in 40-50 percent available in initial spots which is not as rosey as the article paints it out to be.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

are the number of residents that these programs can take the same ?

It would be interesting to see what the end number of residency positions remain. Even with a small 10-20% reduction in 72% remaining programs means a total reduction in 40-50 percent available in initial spots which is not as rosey as the article paints it out to be.

Most of them are staying the same honestly, and there are a few that are even adding spots because sites they had to add to meet ACGME allows them the ability to train an additional resident or two.

Also want to add that I know at least a handful of the specialty programs that are going to get it that don't currently have it yet.

 

[2021Doctor]

It would be interesting to see what the end number of residency positions remain. Even with a small 10-20% reduction in 72% remaining programs means a total reduction in 40-50 percent available in initial spots which is not as rosey as the article paints it out to be.

Back 2 years ago there was a difference of opinion between Dr. Gevitz at ATSU Kirksville and the AACOM
Dr. Gevitz said:
Based on current trends, it would not be at all surprising if 40% of all current AOA-only accredited internships, residencies, and fellowships do not achieve ACGME initial accreditation.
https://ip4pi.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/2016-third-report-on-single-accreditation.pdf
AACOM response said:
Based on AOA’s data from direct outreach to programs through a call campaign, over 80 percent of AOA programs already indicate that they will apply for ACGME accreditation.
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...16_talkingpoints-gevitz.pdf?sfvrsn=e9675097_5

 

[Goro]

Back 2 years ago there was a difference of opinion between Dr. Gevitz at ATSU Kirksville and the AACOM
Dr. Gevitz said:
Based on current trends, it would not be at all surprising if 40% of all current AOA-only accredited internships, residencies, and fellowships do not achieve ACGME initial accreditation.
https://ip4pi.files.wordpress.com/2016/09/2016-third-report-on-single-accreditation.pdf
AACOM response said:
Based on AOA’s data from direct outreach to programs through a call campaign, over 80 percent of AOA programs already indicate that they will apply for ACGME accreditation.
https://www.aacom.org/docs/default-...16_talkingpoints-gevitz.pdf?sfvrsn=e9675097_5

Looks like the sky didn't fall after all.

 

[libertyyne]

Looks like the sky didn't fall after all.

only the match in 2021-22 can tell.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

only the match in 2021-22 can tell.

I'd say even earlier than that, this coming match is the last year of the AOA match. 2020 is going to be the year that tells us how things are going to go.

 

[libertyyne]

I'd say even earlier than that, this coming match is the last year of the AOA match. 2020 is going to be the year that tells us how things are going to go.

Oh, i was thinking along the lines of 700 additional DO matriculants in the c/o 2021 vs 2020 and , the initial accreditation will have a onsite review by ACGME within two years leading to either a full accreditation or trouble.

 

[Postictal Raiden]

If I were a premed thinking of applying to DO schools today, I’d seriously reconsider

 

[libertyyne]

I found this site that generates reports about programs ACGME - Accreditation Data System (ADS)


It is also interesting that the article claims 6611 residency slots now in ACGME from 2015 but when you look at the 2014 match data the total number of positions was ~3000
2014 Summary by Program Type I guess they are counting pgy2,3 positions as well which is kind of misleading.

and even if the program has just applied or obtained initial accreditation only it is counting it as a successful transition.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

obtained initial accreditation only it is counting it as a successful transition.

Supposedly the 2 yr initial accreditation is where you need 100% compliance, and to get the continued 10 year accreditation you only need 80%. That's what was told to me by someone directly associated with the process at one of our programs that has initial accred. So essentially once you get initial accred then you really have to screw the pooch not to get the continued.

 

[libertyyne]

Supposedly the 2 yr initial accreditation is where you need 100% compliance, and to get the continued 10 year accreditation you only need 80%. That's what was told to me by someone directly associated with the process at one of our programs that has initial accred. So essentially once you get initial accred then you really have to screw the pooch not to get the continued.

Thats weird, because usually in the accrediation world complete accrediation requires the most work , and conditional accreditation is usually handed out as a band aid to prevent closure.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Thats weird, because usually in the accrediation world complete accrediation requires the most work , and conditional accreditation is usually handed out as a band aid to prevent closure.

That's what the continued pre-accreditation tag is for I believe. To prevent closure and allow continued AOA accreditation while a program works out the kinks. My understanding is that initial accreditation IS complete accreditation as far as ACGME goes. Initially accredited programs can participate in the NRMP match and take MDs as a fully accredited ACGME program.

 

[libertyyne]

That's what the continued pre-accreditation tag is for I believe. To prevent closure and allow continued AOA accreditation while a program works out the kinks. My understanding is that initial accreditation IS complete accreditation as far as ACGME goes. Initially accredited programs can participate in the NRMP match and take MDs as a fully accredited ACGME program.

So excluding the 125 that are in pre-accreditation that leads to a 61% conversion rate so far. Not bad, seems right between the 40% with the Dr.Gevitz number and the 80% number touted by the AOA.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

So excluding the 125 that are in pre-accreditation that leads to a 61% conversion rate so far. Not bad, seems right between the 40% with the Dr.Gevitz number and the 80% number touted by the AOA.

Yeah things could be worse honestly, and there are still a number of programs that I would be very surprised if they didn't end up getting it. L

 

[Goro]

To add to this mix, some schools, including mine are creating residency programs.

 

[Blanky]

If I were a premed thinking of applying to DO schools today, I’d seriously reconsider

:/

 

[Dr.Bruh]

I found this site that generates reports about programs ACGME - Accreditation Data System (ADS)


It is also interesting that the article claims 6611 residency slots now in ACGME from 2015 but when you look at the 2014 match data the total number of positions was ~3000
2014 Summary by Program Type I guess they are counting pgy2,3 positions as well which is kind of misleading.

and even if the program has just applied or obtained initial accreditation only it is counting it as a successful transition.

I was able to talk with the president of the AOA when he came to my school this year and he basically said the put a lot of effort into increasing the number of spots in the residencies they new would make the transition. He said the number of AOA spots that have ACGME acred now are a lot more than there are DOs that even match in the AOA in any given year.

 

[libertyyne]

I was able to talk with the president of the AOA when he came to my school this year and he basically said the put a lot of effort into increasing the number of spots in the residencies they new would make the transition. He said the number of AOA spots that have ACGME acred now are a lot more than there are DOs that even match in the AOA in any given year.

There is no way in hell that there are twice as many spots as there were in AOA in ACGME. the number they are claiming is ALL residency positions so pgy1, 2, 3. They would have been painting that DO website with articles like: GME first year positions doubled! MD students pining for osteopathic distinction in newly created residency spots.

 

[Dr.Bruh]

There is no way in hell that there are twice as many spots as there were in AOA in ACGME. the number they are claiming is ALL residency positions so pgy1, 2, 3. They would have been painting that DO website with articles like: GME first year positions doubled! MD students pining for osteopathic distinction in newly created residency spots.

He didn’t give me the number that you have (which probably is pgy1,2,3+). I don’t remember off the top of my head but the number was just marginally higher than there were Pgy1 spots the prior year. He definitely phrased it to me that there’s technically more pgy1 spots that the 70%ish of programs statistic would suggest. Idk tho just saying what he told me

 

[MADD!!!]

It would be interesting to see what the end number of residency positions remain. Even with a small 10-20% reduction in 72% remaining programs means a total reduction in 40-50 percent available in initial spots which is not as rosey as the article paints it out to be.

Was gonna say what AnatomyGrey said --- I think many have actually added spots in order to try and maintain accepting the same amount of DO students as before as well as accommodating MD's as well.

Also if this is based on the list that the AOA has on their page of programs already transitioned to ACGME, then it's incomplete. I know of a few programs personally who were AOA who have gotten ACGME accreditation for a while now and are not on that list (https://osteopathic.org/wp-content/...e-gme-transitioned-programs-opportunities.pdf)

 

[BorntobeDO?]

And somehow the placement rate will magically drop again this year despite all these 'extra spots'. Believing the AOA is like thinking a alcoholic will stop drinking after a second liver transplant when they killed their first transplanted liver and original liver from drinking. You can do it, but you're an idiot with all that evidence before you. When has AOA ever delivered on anything other than more DO schools?

 

[MADD!!!]

And somehow the placement rate will magically drop again this year despite all these 'extra spots'. Believing the AOA is like thinking a alcoholic will stop drinking after a second liver transplant when they killed their first transplanted liver and original liver from drinking. You can do it, but you're an idiot with all that evidence before you. When has AOA ever delivered on anything other than more DO schools?

Can’t blame it on AOA when literally 7,000 of our residency spots get filled by IMG&FMG every year. That and placement rates fall because of 1) red flags such as board failures, 2) going for a competitive specialty, especially when your stats are below average, and 3) not applying broadly enough. No one is not matching right now due to a lack of spots, nor will they be anytime in the near future due to a lack of spots. But if you want Derm or Ortho and you go to DO school X branch campus of school Y established in 2019, yes you will be sourly disappointed.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

Can’t blame it on AOA when literally 7,000 of our residency spots get filled by IMG&FMG every year. That and placement rates fall because of 1) red flags such as board failures, 2) going for a competitive specialty, especially when your stats are below average, and 3) not applying broadly enough. No one is not matching right now due to a lack of spots, nor will they be anytime in the near future due to a lack of spots. But if you want Derm or Ortho and you go to DO school X branch campus of school Y established in 2019, yes you will be sourly disappointed.

I agree

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[libertyyne]

Can’t blame it on AOA when literally 7,000 of our residency spots get filled by IMG&FMG every year. That and placement rates fall because of 1) red flags such as board failures, 2) going for a competitive specialty, especially when your stats are below average, and 3) not applying broadly enough. No one is not matching right now due to a lack of spots, nor will they be anytime in the near future due to a lack of spots. But if you want Derm or Ortho and you go to DO school X branch campus of school Y established in 2019, yes you will be sourly disappointed.

victim blaming is never the real solution. Why dont MD schools have similar problems? class sizes? If a school decided to give an admit to a student who is incapable of passing boards on the first attempt or incapable of matching or receives inadequate and inappropriate advice for match, it is not entirely the students fault there. Plus there are 13 more schools opening up, so 300x13= 3900 more DO students in the near future.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

victim blaming is never the real solution. Why dont MD schools have similar problems? class sizes? If a school decided to give an admit to a student who is incapable of passing boards on the first attempt or incapable of matching or receives inadequate and inappropriate advice for match, it is not entirely the students fault there. Plus there are 13 more schools opening up, so 300x13= 3900 more DO students in the near future.

New schools are only allowed to have 150 students not 300. But I see what you're saying though, but nevertheless I agree with the original statement that too many spots are going to IMGs and FMGs, and also DO students need to be more realistic when applying for residency.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

 

[MADD!!!]

victim blaming is never the real solution. Why dont MD schools have similar problems? class sizes? If a school decided to give an admit to a student who is incapable of passing boards on the first attempt or incapable of matching or receives inadequate and inappropriate advice for match, it is not entirely the students fault there. Plus there are 13 more schools opening up, so 300x13= 3900 more DO students in the near future.

1) MD schools do have this problem, you just don't here about it as much. We all know how hard it is to get into an MD school ... if you get in, you can get out. Same is true for many DO schools (albeit for passing COMLEX, not USMLE per se)
2) 13 new schools?
3) 300 students per new school???
4) New residency slots are still being opened up every year too, so can't just assume it's a stagnant # of slots vs. increasing number of med students.

Again, problem lies in more and more ppl who are being admitted to these medical schools wanting to gun for competitive fields, when basically all of them who got accepted sang about how they want to do nothing but primary care etc. etc.

 

[libertyyne]

New schools are only allowed to have 150 students not 300. But I see what you're saying though, but nevertheless I agree with the original statement that too many spots are going to IMGs and FMGs, and also DO students need to be more realistic when applying for residency.

Sent from my SM-G950U using SDN mobile

would you rather a high performing FMG or IMG treat your loved ones vs a redflagged USDO or US MD?
Plus the FMGs and IMGs have huge hurrdles infront of them for matching vs us grads. Being outcompeted at those positions or not applying to those positions doesnt mean that too many spots are going to those graduates.

1) MD schools do have this problem, you just don't here about it as much. We all know how hard it is to get into an MD school ... if you get in, you can get out. Same is true for many DO schools (albeit for passing COMLEX, not USMLE per se)
2) 13 new schools?
3) 300 students per new school???
4) New residency slots are still being opened up every year too, so can't just assume it's a stagnant # of slots vs. increasing number of med students.

Again, problem lies in more and more ppl who are being admitted to these medical schools wanting to gun for competitive fields, when basically all of them who got accepted sang about how they want to do nothing but primary care etc. etc.

im sorry could you tell me about the MD schools that are encountering these problems to this extent?
This is what happens when expansion happens too quickly without any regard for quality or student outcomes. This is COCA and AOAs fault clear and simple. If MD schools had such attrition or failure to match rates they would be on probation.

 

[MADD!!!]

would you rather a high performing FMG or IMG treat your loved ones vs a redflagged USDO or US MD?
Plus the FMGs and IMGs have huge hurrdles infront of them for matching vs us grads. Being outcompeted at those positions or not applying to those positions doesnt mean that too many spots are going to those graduates.

im sorry could you tell me about the MD schools that are encountering these problems to this extent?
This is what happens when expansion happens too quickly without any regard for quality or student outcomes. This is COCA and AOAs fault clear and simple. If MD schools had such attrition or failure to match rates they would be on probation.

What is the problem exactly? The new schools like Campbell, ACOM, and Marian all seem to be doing fine (actually they’re outperforming nova like crazy). MD schools nor DO schools for the most part don’t have issues as a school —- I’m saying there are students in each school who fail boards, drop out, etc etc. No where is completely immune to this. The lower placement rates will be more dependent on students rather than institutions, which is not an AOA or a COCA problem at all, it’s simple supply and demand. Why do you think the match rate on the MD side is 93% and not 100% even though there are 40% more residency slots than applicants? That’s 7% of MD’s NOT matching amidst everything being in their favor to match the most.

P.S. also it's important to take some things on SDN with a grain of salt. Jkdoctor has posted like 50 new and developing COM's, but many of them did not get approved or fell through. Also out of those that did, not all of them necessarily are opening 150 seats per class. Ex. PCOM South Georgia will have like 55 or 65 seats. (Not saying jkdoctor's posts are wrong, but just b/c a school claims to be opening a new DO school doesn't mean it's actually gonna happen).

 

[libertyyne]

What is the problem exactly? The new schools like Campbell, ACOM, and Marian all seem to be doing fine (actually they’re outperforming nova like crazy). MD schools nor DO schools for the most part don’t have issues as a school —- I’m saying there are students in each school who fail boards, drop out, etc etc. No where is completely immune to this. The lower placement rates will be more dependent on students rather than institutions, which is not an AOA or a COCA problem at all, it’s simple supply and demand. Why do you think the match rate on the MD side is 93% and not 100% even though there are 40% more residency slots than applicants? That’s 7% of MD’s NOT matching amidst everything being in their favor to match the most.

P.S. also it's important to take some things on SDN with a grain of salt. Jkdoctor has posted like 50 new and developing COM's, but many of them did not get approved or fell through. Also out of those that did, not all of them necessarily are opening 150 seats per class. Ex. PCOM South Georgia will have like 55 or 65 seats. (Not saying jkdoctor's posts are wrong, but just b/c a school claims to be opening a new DO school doesn't mean it's actually gonna happen).

That match rate for Mds is 94 and placement is much higher. The DO school match rate on the NRMP side was in the 80's with placement not being much higher for NRMP. Just because NSU had a bad few years does not mean it is equal to WSU. The disparity or lack of disparity will become more prominent one the transition is complete, because currently the only NRMP data paints an incomplete and bleaker picture.


What you arent seeing is that AOA and COCA are devaluing your degree. Making it easier to get a DO degree , regardless of the match rate at end of the tunnel or the quality of clinicals.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Can’t blame it on AOA when literally 7,000 of our residency spots get filled by IMG&FMG every year.

It literally is the AOAs fault. They greenlight every crap school that comes along and don’t require them to open a single residency program. The president came to our school and literally had the balls to tell us that new schools don’t need to open residency spots because MD programs have enough spots. They are straight up criminals who don’t give two farts about any of the students.

Again, problem lies in more and more ppl who are being admitted to these medical schools wanting to gun for competitive fields

No, no, and no some more. Very few people apply to competitive specialties. Yes some people over shoot but it’s not that many in the applicant pool, and those people still land in decent fields/residencies. The schools have expanded at such a rate that they have to let people in who literally have no business being in medical school. Have you seen how much attrition some of these new schools are having? It’s not pretty.

 

[BMRMike]

The DO school match rate on the NRMP side was in the 80's with placement not being much higher for NRMP.

You have to consider that a large number of those in the NRMP is someone who failed AOA

 

[MADD!!!]

It literally is the AOAs fault. They greenlight every crap school that comes along and don’t require them to open a single residency program. The president came to our school and literally had the balls to tell us that new schools don’t need to open residency spots because MD programs have enough spots. They are straight up criminals who don’t give to farts about any of the students.



No, no, and no some more. Very few people apply to competitive specialties. Yes some people over shoot but it’s not that many in the applicant pool, and those people still land in decent fields/residencies. The schools have expanded at such a rate that they have to let people in who literally have no business being in medical school. Have you seen how much attrition some of these new schools are having? It’s not pretty.

I disagree. A few years ago, ppl complained about new programs opening up left and right (Campbell, Marian, ACOM) and they all seem to be great schools to me. Liberty had a rough first year and seems to be doing ok now. This might not sound pretty to you, but I do agree that MD's do have enough residency slots for all of us. BUT, I think there needs to be a re-distribution. If there are more DO schools opening up, there needs to be less students accepted from Carribean schools b/c this is with the assumption that more US students have access to these DO schools rather than going overseas to get medical degrees. Also with the assumption that DO students should still get priority over MANY IMG and FMG students. I think the expansion is up but it is also extremely exaggerated on SDN. These "criminals" license all DO's in the nation and are what give us the right to get the title of DO after our names, so I have more respect for them than calling them criminals.

I agree the standards should be maintained to a level where if a student is not statistically seen to make it through medical school, they shouldn't be accepted. These bumps will be there in the first few years of these schools, and if the problem continues and there just aren't enough students who apply to medical school who are capable of making it through to the end (I.E. there are more medical schools than enough students per year to successfully matriculate), then that's a whole different discussion on it's own and you'd need more data after a number of years pass to make that judgement. Can't go ballistic on schools after their first few years trying to figure out the kinks of running a new program.

Again, just my opinion, not saying I'm right or wrong and you'll probably disagree with a lot of this but it is what it is either way. Not up to either of us to really change it right now.

 

[DrRedstone]

To add to this mix, some schools, including mine are creating residency programs.

The hospitals in Joplin are working on new residency programs as well, with FM slated to open 2021 with Freeman/Access Family Care and Mercy Health System looking to open up a few residencies. The doom and gloom is likely unfounded.

 

[DrStephenStrange]

To add to this mix, some schools, including mine are creating residency programs.

The hospitals in Joplin are working on new residency programs as well, with FM slated to open 2021 with Freeman/Access Family Care and Mercy Health System looking to open up a few residencies. The doom and gloom is likely unfounded.

My school which is supposed to be a new school with no graduating class or even a rotating class have at least 3 residency programs in the process of getting ACGME accreditation, and another 3 already up and running for this cycle in IM, FM, and gen surg. So when I hear people saying how bad things are going to be in 2 years for schools like mine, I just . CUSOM, which people also thought was a bad idea when they opened, did the same thing in NC, and look how they're having 100% placement rate every year now. Like they always say, the sky is always falling here on SDN.

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[Moose A Moose]

This is no surprise. FM and IM residency programs - the bread and butter of the AOA - were quickly accepted by the ACGME.

The axe fell down hard on surgery and its subspecialties.

 

[alprazoslam]

My school which is supposed to be a new school with no graduating class or even a rotating class have at least 3 residency programs in the process of getting ACGME accreditation, and another 3 already up and running for this cycle in IM, FM, and gen surg. So when I hear people saying how bad things are going to be in 2 years for schools like mine, I just . CUSOM, which people also thought was a bad idea when they opened, did the same thing in NC, and look how they're having 100% placement rate every year now. Like they always say, the sky is always falling here on SDN.

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Hope they stick it out and follow thru

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This might not sound pretty to you, but I do agree that MD's do have enough residency slots for all of us. BUT, I think there needs to be a re-distribution. If there are more DO schools opening up, there needs to be less students accepted from Carribean schools b/c this is with the assumption that more US students have access to these DO schools rather than going overseas to get medical degrees

No. You don't get to defend the new schools opening up by putting the onus of residency training on another school. Medical school is completely worthless without residency training. School opening up with crap rotations, no affiliated residencies, and no plans to build some don't deserve to exist. Period.

And in case you haven't noticed MD schools are expanding too. We are rapidly approaching the time where American grads will equal the number of pgy-1 spots. MD schools don't owe us anything, and shouldn't be expected to bail us out because we don't build our own residency programs.

These "criminals" license all DO's in the nation and are what give us the right to get the title of DO after our names, so I have more respect for them than calling them criminals.

You are literally wrong on this one. They don't license "all DO's in the nation." Any DO who does an ACGME residency does not have to have AOA licensure. With the merger they theoretically could be licensing ZERO of the DO's in the nation. They know they have almost no reason to exist anymore, so they are going around trying to convince people to still get AOA licensure (LOL) and greenlighting every hotdog stand of a school in an attempt to swell their numbers to try and stay relevant. Up until recently they made AOA licensed physicians to PAY for that licensure. You had to pay the AOA a fee in order to practice medicine. This only ended very recently because someone filed a very large lawsuit and the AOA caved.

Did I mention the fact that these new schools have 162 new students each? With outrageous tuition levels? In a warehouse? With crap rotations in clinics and offices that aren't equipped for teaching? It is a scam of massive proportions. They are scamming everyone and devaluing your degree at the same time. Stop drinking the kool-aid and recognize these people for what they are. Criminals. We don't owe them anything, because I can definitely assure you, they don't care about you in the slightest.

It already happened to podiatry, and people are insane if they think that this school expansion and relative stagnancy with residency positions won't have disastrous consequences.

 

[alprazoslam]

No. You don't get to defend the new schools opening up by putting the onus of residency training on another school. Medical school is completely worthless without residency training. School opening up with crap rotations, no affiliated residencies, and no plans to build some don't deserve to exist. Period.

And in case you haven't noticed MD schools are expanding too. We are rapidly approaching the time where American grads will equal the number of pgy-1 spots. MD schools don't owe us anything, and shouldn't be expected to bail us out because we don't build our own residency programs.



You are literally wrong on this one. They don't license "all DO's in the nation." Any DO who does an ACGME residency does not have to have AOA licensure. With the merger they theoretically could be licensing ZERO of the DO's in the nation. They know they have almost no reason to exist anymore, so they are going around trying to convince people to still get AOA licensure (LOL) and greenlighting every hotdog stand of a school in an attempt to swell their numbers to try and stay relevant. Up until recently they made AOA licensed physicians to PAY for that licensure. You had to pay the AOA a fee in order to practice medicine. This only ended very recently because someone filed a very large lawsuit and the AOA caved.

Did I mention the fact that these new schools have 162 new students each? With outrageous tuition levels? In a warehouse? With crap rotations in clinics and offices that aren't equipped for teaching? It is a scam of massive proportions. They are scamming everyone and devaluing your degree at the same time. Stop drinking the kool-aid and recognize these people for what they are. Criminals. We don't owe them anything, because I can definitely assure you, they definitely don't care about you in the slightest.

It already happened to podiatry, and people are insane if they think that this school expansion and relative stagnancy with residency positions won't have disastrous consequences.

Pwnt

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

This is no surprise. FM and IM residency programs - the bread and butter of the AOA - were quickly accepted by the ACGME.

The axe fell down hard on surgery and its subspecialties.

To be fair it could have been a lot worse than it already is, and there are still a number of programs that will most likely make it.

 

[Goro]

No. You don't get to defend the new schools opening up by putting the onus of residency training on another school. Medical school is completely worthless without residency training. School opening up with crap rotations, no affiliated residencies, and no plans to build some don't deserve to exist. Period.

And in case you haven't noticed MD schools are expanding too. We are rapidly approaching the time where American grads will equal the number of pgy-1 spots. MD schools don't owe us anything, and shouldn't be expected to bail us out because we don't build our own residency programs.



You are literally wrong on this one. They don't license "all DO's in the nation." Any DO who does an ACGME residency does not have to have AOA licensure. With the merger they theoretically could be licensing ZERO of the DO's in the nation. They know they have almost no reason to exist anymore, so they are going around trying to convince people to still get AOA licensure (LOL) and greenlighting every hotdog stand of a school in an attempt to swell their numbers to try and stay relevant. Up until recently they made AOA licensed physicians to PAY for that licensure. You had to pay the AOA a fee in order to practice medicine. This only ended very recently because someone filed a very large lawsuit and the AOA caved.

Did I mention the fact that these new schools have 162 new students each? With outrageous tuition levels? In a warehouse? With crap rotations in clinics and offices that aren't equipped for teaching? It is a scam of massive proportions. They are scamming everyone and devaluing your degree at the same time. Stop drinking the kool-aid and recognize these people for what they are. Criminals. We don't owe them anything, because I can definitely assure you, they don't care about you in the slightest.

It already happened to podiatry, and people are insane if they think that this school expansion and relative stagnancy with residency positions won't have disastrous consequences.

I wouldn't go so far as to call them criminals. Idiots, perhaps.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

New schools are only allowed to have 150 students not 300. But I see what you're saying though, but nevertheless I agree with the original statement that too many spots are going to IMGs and FMGs, and also DO students need to be more realistic when applying for residency.

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Not true, if they are a branch campus they can do more than 150. And even 150 is really 150 + 8%. You will learn the tricks if you pay attention. 😉

 

[JamesPotterMS-3]

Did I mention the fact that these new schools have 162 new students each? With outrageous tuition levels? In a warehouse? With crap rotations in clinics and offices that aren't equipped for teaching? It is a scam of massive proportions. They are scamming everyone and devaluing your degree at the same time. Stop drinking the kool-aid and recognize these people for what they are. Criminals. We don't owe them anything, because I can definitely assure you, they don't care about you in the slightest.

Yup.

Going on audition rotations and elective rotations throughout the country in the past 6 months has really opened my eyes on just how deficient the DO medical education model is. Preceptor based clinical rotations are NOT adequate preparation for inpatient medicine and residency. Period. And yet, I'd argue 70-75% of DO students nationwide will spend their third year in glorified shadowing posts. All medical students should spend at least 4 weeks each on a surgery and medicine ward with a robust residency program at a level 1 or 2 trauma center. That's where you learn medicine. It frightens me that there are DOs who graduate every year with literally zero inpatient IM experience, even at my own COM.

 

[BorntobeDO?]

Can’t blame it on AOA when literally 7,000 of our residency spots get filled by IMG&FMG every year. That and placement rates fall because of 1) red flags such as board failures, 2) going for a competitive specialty, especially when your stats are below average, and 3) not applying broadly enough. No one is not matching right now due to a lack of spots, nor will they be anytime in the near future due to a lack of spots. But if you want Derm or Ortho and you go to DO school X branch campus of school Y established in 2019, yes you will be sourly disappointed.

Our =USMD, there aren't 7k PGY1 DO spots in the first place, and IMGs couldn't apply to the 3k we used to have.

On the second red, what class are you in again? The amount of DO's has increased by 400 every year the last couple years but had a huge 800 seat jump for 2022. Over 120 students didn't place last year from DO schools. And that number has risen 3 years straight (both percentage and amount). That's not the match rate I am talking about but the placement i.e. failed to SOAP and failed to scramble after that. Keep watching and learning, you'll figure it out.

 

[alprazoslam]

Probably depends more on location and attending then on whether or not there are residents with you.

Don’t care how many are alive nor applying to any of them lmao. Four years of DO school was enough DOness for me

 

[Scrubs101]

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but I see a lot of people blaming the AOA. Aside from the garbage their higher ups like to spew, the AOA doesnt really seem to be the problem in-fact, they seem to be doing a decent amount to try and protect DOs after being forced into this merger. The main problems I see are caused by COCA and the rapid expansion of DO schools just in it to make a buck. I don't really see what the AOA has to do with this unless theyre apart of that school approval process as well.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

The main problems I see are caused by COCA and the rapid expansion of DO schools just in it to make a buck. I don't really see what the AOA has to do with this unless theyre apart of that school approval process as well.

COCA is governed by the AOA. They could easily end the madness but are doing the exact opposite and trying to run victory laps over the expansion.

 

[Scrubs101]

COCA is governed by the AOA. They could easily end the madness but are doing the exact opposite and trying to run victory laps over the expansion.

Ahh did not know that, i retract my previous defense of them then lol.