9 years since completing undergrad...

[MedPhys2MD]

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I have been out if school for a while and trying to figure out how to handle not having recent coursework. I finished my masters degree and have been working in radiation oncology for the last 5 years. I am signed up to take the May 2014 MCAT. I realize that I should have recent science courses on my application so I'm debating between a few options.

Since I took the prerequisites 10+ years ago I don't feel comfortable taking classes while preparing for the exam. My last science courses were in grad school about 6 years ago. I can't stop working to take the classes so online/distance learning classes are my best option. Should I apply next summer for 2015 matriculation and enroll in summer and fall classes and simply indicate on my app that I'm taking courses and hope that sufficient? Or should I wait until I have a years worth of classes and apply for 2016 matriculation?

 

[DrMidlife]

Depends.

If you got mostly A's in all the med school prereqs, and you can remember the content pretty well (F=MA? tRNA binds at E site or A site?) and you're pretty strong in the humanities, then MCAT prep is going to be predictable. In this case, you should plan on taking 1-2 upper div science classroom courses to demonstrate that in 9 years you haven't lost your ability to do well in that atmosphere. You should not do online/distance coursework, because you need fresh letters of recommendation from faculty. Look at Berkeley Extension or similar.

If you didn't do so well in undergrad bio/genchem/ochem/physics/math/humanities, or you seriously don't remember anything from sophomore physics etc, then you can't just start MCAT prep. You have to go back and rigorously review/relearn the material before you start looking at test prep. You will need to find the time to go back over that material, either in the classroom or on your own (which is almost certainly a bad idea unless you have incredible discipline).

If you're in California, and if your grades from undergrad were less than around 3.6, regardless of how you did in your grad work, you really need to look at doing additional undergrad to raise that undergrad number a bit, and to demonstrate fresh, confidence-inspiring med-school-quality classroom prowess. (In less-competitive states, this yardstick would be 3.5 or 3.4.)

Your MCAT score is not going to be strong without content mastery, regardless of how much test-specific prep you do. Before you get too excited about an application date, you need to get to where you can assess your MCAT readiness and the strength of your entire app as it compares to competitive 21 year olds. You have to get past them on numbers, before you get to the stage where your experience and maturity are relevant in med school admissions.

Best of luck to you.

 

[sublyminal]

I have been out if school for a while and trying to figure out how to handle not having recent coursework. I finished my masters degree and have been working in radiation oncology for the last 5 years. I am signed up to take the May 2014 MCAT. I realize that I should have recent science courses on my application so I'm debating between a few options.

Since I took the prerequisites 10+ years ago I don't feel comfortable taking classes while preparing for the exam. My last science courses were in grad school about 6 years ago. I can't stop working to take the classes so online/distance learning classes are my best option. Should I apply next summer for 2015 matriculation and enroll in summer and fall classes and simply indicate on my app that I'm taking courses and hope that sufficient? Or should I wait until I have a years worth of classes and apply for 2016 matriculation?

I could be reading into this wrong, but I take it you're not planning on re-taking the prerequisites? If so... It is my understanding that most medical schools will NOT accept your prereqs if they were taken over six years ago (or is it 7?). Either way, 10 is more than both... I could be wrong here, but you may want to check into this with the schools you're interested in.

As far as the MCAT specific prep. goes. I've read multiple times on SDN that lack of preparation is the biggest regret of many. I'm actually (currently) preparing for the May MCAT, with no prerequisites (other than 1st semester chem/bio/physics 9 years ago). I would guess that with your strength/confidence in science you are much better off than I, but I would still recommend a schedule that allows you to focus solely on the MCAT if possible. You should look up the advice posted on the sn2ed 90 day MCAT schedule thread: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=623898

Good luck...

 

[DrMidlife]

I could be reading into this wrong, but I take it you're not planning on re-taking the prerequisites? If so... It is my understanding that most medical schools will NOT accept your prereqs if they were taken over six years ago (or is it 7?). Either way, 10 is more than both... I could be wrong here, but you may want to check into this with the schools you're interested in.

This comes up every year since I've been on SDN. Here's a synopsis of the annual "what schools expire prereqs?!?!" threads:
Post #1 "Hey UMass says you have to take your prereqs within 6 years, are there other schools that do this?"
Post #2 "Oh ya all the schools say that"
Post #3 "Oh except most don't say that"
Post #4 "My physics/chem/ochem were 20 years old when I started med school so WTF?"
Posts #5 through 10: 4-5 more schools with specific prereq expiration policies get added to the list, along with a dozen rumors and a few screaming misrepresentations, leaving ~150 schools unaccounted for, and then the thread dies.

What to do if your prereqs are more than a few years old:
1. Diligently read the FAQs on med school admissions websites. If you want to apply to 25 schools, that's >25 FAQs, no excuses, do your homework.
2. Search the nontrad forum for "expire" and "expiration" for supplemental info, and don't take any one person's opinion too seriously (including mine).
3. Do well on the MCAT to obviate any logical need to retake prereqs.
4. Make sure you have fresh science coursework as an answer to any questions about the age of your prereqs.

(Note: there are at least 2 other very good reasons to make sure you have fresh science coursework when you apply to med school.)

Best of luck to you.

 

[MedPhys2MD]

Thanks for the replies! I'm fairly confident in my ability to perform well on the MCAT - I took it 7 years ago but decided not to pursue medicine at that time due to my family situation. I've been watching the Gold Standard science review, listening to audio osmosis and will start a modified sn2ed schedule before the new year - then give myself 2 solid months of full lengths/review.

sublyminal - sounds like you haven't retaken your prereqs either. What are your plans for your older coursework? I'm in Southern California and hopeful for admission at a school here, but obviously it's competitive and I'm open to various locations. USC says on their site they have no specific course requirements, but I will contact other schools next week to verify their policies.

DrMidLife - I'm pretty confident in my GPA and old scores in prereqs but just worried about the recent coursework. I need to decide soon about the application year as I'll need to start working with my undergrad career advisory committee at the beginning of 2014 to update my file. Do you think schools won't like the fact I don't have my recent science grades available at time of application?

 

[sublyminal]

sublyminal - sounds like you haven't retaken your prereqs either. What are your plans for your older coursework? I'm in Southern California and hopeful for admission at a school here, but obviously it's competitive and I'm open to various locations. USC says on their site they have no specific course requirements, but I will contact other schools next week to verify their policies.

I'm going to retake everything. It was only three courses (bio1 /physics 1/chem 1), so it's not a huge deal for me. Also, it's so old that I'd be doing myself a disservice on the 2nd semester stuff if I didn't (retake). My post bacc pre med program starts summer 2014, and by end of Spring 2015 I will have all 8 prereqs done.

I plan on taking the MCAT this coming May (yes, before the prereqs.). I started studying loosely about a month ago, but went "all in" last week. I am starting by watching Khan (each topic) at 1.5x speed. From there I'm taking the online TPR self-paced course and listening to AO when I have down time. After that I will follow sn2ed's schedule with BR. If I'm not comfortable by May, then I'll take it in January of 2015 (the last official current version of the MCAT).

Your situation is different than mine though, and with your proven strengths in the sciences you may be better off finding a way to avoid having to retake anything.

 

[MedPhys2MD]

I'd really prefer not to retake all courses but your program sounds great - and intense. That's a lot of material to cover in a year but It's great that you'll be able to finish the content so quickly. Are you definitely applying for 2016 matriculation then? Taking the MCAT before classes so you don't have to study while in that intense program?

I can honestly say, this process of applying to medical is the first time in my life that I've actually felt "old". Not really worried about being older than other students but hadn't really thought about how long I've been out of school and people constantly tell me how young I look lol

 

[sublyminal]

I'd really prefer not to retake all courses but your program sounds great - and intense. That's a lot of material to cover in a year but It's great that you'll be able to finish the content so quickly. Are you definitely applying for 2016 matriculation then? Taking the MCAT before classes so you don't have to study while in that intense program?

I can honestly say, this process of applying to medical is the first time in my life that I've actually felt "old". Not really worried about being older than other students but hadn't really thought about how long I've been out of school and people constantly tell me how young I look lol

Lol @ the "old" comments... I get the "young" thing all the time too. I guess I look somewhere around 25/26, but I'm actually 34.

I will apply for 2016 matriculation. I'm taking the MCAT before classes, because I only have two realistic options for getting it in prior to the revision. 1) I can do it prior to the start of my pre med program, or 2) I can wait and take the last official version in January 2015, using Christmas break 2014 to study. Either way I will not have all prereqs done, but with option two, at least I'd be half way through them.

My feeling is that if I study for it now, and feel comfortable (35+ will be "comfort" for me), then I can get it out the way and utilize the knowledge gained in the process to ensure A's in the pre med program. Either way (either option), I will benefit from studying before I actually start the pre med program. Also, as a direct consequence of studying so intensely now, and if May 2014 doesn't pan out for me- I should be able to carry some of the study habits/knowledge gained from this study schedule over to Jan 2015- making up for the shorter time-frame I'll have then to MCAT specific study (~3-4 weeks over Christmas break).

As you can see, I really really really want to get a score in prior to the revision. I do not want to have to readdress social sciences/psychology/and take biochemistry in order to acquire an acceptable score on the "new" MCAT.

 

[MedPhys2MD]

Sounds like we might be on similar schedules for studying for the May exam - I'm taking it on the 8th... Maybe we should keep in touch via PM to keep each other on track 🙂

When are you planning to start sn2ed schedule?

 

[hawkbit]

Yep, I'm planning on taking the old version Jan 2015 myself. Won't have physics 2 yet, but shouldn't be too hard to get up to speed with some hard work!

 

[sublyminal]

Sounds like we might be on similar schedules for studying for the May exam - I'm taking it on the 8th... Maybe we should keep in touch via PM to keep each other on track 🙂

When are you planning to start sn2ed schedule?

Sounds like a plan.. Always easier when there's someone that holds you accountable.

I plan on starting sn2ed on March 3rd. All materials are ordered, but I only have TPR and EK on hand as of now. BR and AO are in the mail... I know this is a lot of resources, but the good news is that if I decide (before May) that it's too much too fast, I will have an entire library of a alternative sources on hand to re-launch the study schedule in December 2014. I hope this doesn't happen, but teaching myself two years worth of four topics, followed by an intense MCAT study schedule- all within six months- is, to put it lightly; a relatively difficult (though possible) goal! Given the situation, though, I'm not sure I have many alternative options...

What are your current plans for getting everything in by May?

Here is the schedule I came up with after advice from other SDN members (posted in another thread):

1) I am going to expose myself to the topics via Khan Academy from now until December 6th. I will spend 8-10 hours per day of watching videos and taking minimal notes. That gives me just over a week (~80 hours max subtracting Turkey Day) to gain exposure to Chem/bio/physics. I actually started watching Khan Videos a few weeks ago, and so I'm not technically starting from scratch. I will probably have between 100-120 hours of Khan videos under my belt come the transition to step two.
2) From December 9th through February 14th I'm going to get through the self-paced online TPR study program (purchased yesterday). I will pre-read the relevant chapters before each "class", take notes during the videos/class, then do all homework assignments thereafter. There are a total of 41 lessons on TPR's self-paced online version. This gives me 67 days to get in 41 lessons; 50 days if I do no work on weekends. I plan on using Saturdays to "catch up" when necessary, and/or keep up on math skills. Sundays will be rest and family time for the most part.
3) From February 17th through the 28th I will read through the examkrackers books on each topic. I purchased the chemistry version last week (arrived yesterday) and noticed that they are straight to the point, yet very illustrative. This will be sort of like reviewing notes (that I didn't take in detail) from Khan.
4) March 3rd I will begin the 90 day sn2ed schedule using BR (purchased last week, received the tracking order yesterday). I will shave one week off of this schedule by not taking one of the tests.
5) My MCAT is scheduled for May 22nd. I begin the summer session (1st semester) of my post-bacc pre-med program the following Monday.

In all I will have exposure from four different sources (minimal). I will have a "foundation" laid by Khan Academy and regurgitated after TPR with ExamKrackers. I will have straight to the point MCAT intensive preparatory notes and extensive hands-on test taking practice via TPR. Finally, I will gain additional review and specific MCAT practice via the sn2ed schedule. I'm leveraging the TPR experience as my primary venue for "learning."

If I feel like I need more review time between TPR and the specific MCAT intensive prep schedule, I will trade the sn2ed method out for Spinach Dip's eight week version.

If this doesn't work, and I'm uncomfortable by my MCAT date, I will postpone the test until January 2015. The good news is I should be well prepared for the prereqs when they come! I'm aiming for a score above 35, and would really really like something beginning with a "4"...

 

[MedPhys2MD]

You've got a very intense schedule ahead of you! Just curious... Are you working now? Family or single? I'm working 3 days per week & have 2 young children

My basic schedule is to:

1) Listen/take light notes on Gold Standard review DVD - 1 topic each week for the next 4 weeks. Re-watch to DVDs (1 topic each week again) starting 1/5
2) Listen to audio osmosis in car daily
3) Start drawn-out sn2ed schedule 12/8... Basically I'm trying to do 7 days of material in his 90 day plan spread out over 2 weeks. Will finish content review this way by 3/16. Will use TPR for questions in addition to sn2ed schedule
4) Starting the week of 3/16 I will try to take 3 full lengths per week... Giving me time for about 20 if I stay on schedule. From what I've read on here doing a lot of practice is really useful

I too have a lot of material... The Berkley Review, EK, Kaplan and TPR hyperlearning plus other stuff. I think the way I'll use the material - since it's just soooo much - is to stick with sn2ed for topics and only dig into content review from other sources if I'm still confused. Otherwise will mainly use the material for the review questions.

 

[MedPhys2MD]

That "4_" is kinda what I'm hoping (and praying) for too

 

[sublyminal]

You've got a very intense schedule ahead of you! Just curious... Are you working now? Family or single? I'm working 3 days per week & have 2 young children

My basic schedule is to:

1) Listen/take light notes on Gold Standard review DVD - 1 topic each week for the next 4 weeks. Re-watch to DVDs (1 topic each week again) starting 1/5
2) Listen to audio osmosis in car daily
3) Start drawn-out sn2ed schedule 12/8... Basically I'm trying to do 7 days of material in his 90 day plan spread out over 2 weeks. Will finish content review this way by 3/16. Will use TPR for questions in addition to sn2ed schedule
4) Starting the week of 3/16 I will try to take 3 full lengths per week... Giving me time for about 20 if I stay on schedule. From what I've read on here doing a lot of practice is really useful

I too have a lot of material... The Berkley Review, EK, Kaplan and TPR hyperlearning plus other stuff. I think the way I'll use the material - since it's just soooo much - is to stick with sn2ed for topics and only dig into content review from other sources if I'm still confused. Otherwise will mainly use the material for the review questions.

Hey, sorry...Just saw this response...

Yea, I do consulting for various businesses so it's not such a hard gig. I supplement this with poker when I can find the time. Married with two kids man...and the little one is 1 1/2 years old....tough to get any studying done, but I manage to squeeze out between 5-6 hours per day (sometimes I get a 12 hour day in). I bought the Bose headphones and listen to an app called brain waves (to block out the noise) when I'm not watching/listening to videos (Khan/TPR).

I'm done with Khan now (the foundation), but I didn't use it for physics. It was taking such a long time that I decided to jump straight into TPR physics (yesterday). I feel like I got a good overview of biology, chem, and o-chem (o-chem got really monotonous after a few sessions); I knew it was bad when I was having dreams about chiral carbons and various mechanisms. TPR does a very good job (so far) of being descriptive enough for a newbie like me to catch on (I've browsed their books prior to starting physics yesterday). I will say, however, Khan does a much better job with his videos (both with software and with intuition), but TPR teaches to the test which is a must. There is also a math refresher section in the back of the physics book (if you haven't noticed already); about 50 pages or so that take you through pre-algebra/trig/vectors/proportions/logs; and they give you little tips for approaching math type problems on the MCAT. Considering I've never had trig, this is a must for me, lol...but I used Khan when I had time to refresh on math and learn trig, and I feel pretty good about my math abilities (thanks Khan!). I actually took a placement test at the JC (to possibly/maybe fit in some extra classes when possible) and tested into calculus....lol... Pretty good for never having taken trig I'd say 🙂

Audio osmosis... oh' boy... I've been trying to listen to these guys, but I'm finding two issues with the content: 1) I don't know most of it well enough to keep up with them. I am starting to believe they are simply synonymous with an audio version of flashcards; kinda testing us on things we should already know, rather than teaching us anything in particular. 2) Their jokes are horrible...too many sound effects....and way too much time wasted. I've laughed at about 5% of their jokes. Also, as you have probably experienced, the intro to each lesson begins with a wasted 20-30 seconds of sound effects/music, and it gets annoying at times. I hope I can use them later in this process more effectively. I get especially frustrated when I'm in a groove listening to them, and bam!....some crazy diabolic laughter or annoying sound effect is thrust into my ears 😡

Examkrackers..... This feels just like a written version of the audio osmosis to me. I really like their artwork/images, but again, it's not rich enough to actually teach me the content; which is what I need. I'm hoping to use their books for extra testing after I've learned the material via TPR. I also just ordered the Kaplan flash cards (MCAT in a box), and hopefully this can fill gaps in studying. I have a feeling I'll use the flashcards (and the ones I've made/making) more often than AO or EK. If I had to list one regret so far in this process, it would be the lack of flashcard volume I've accumulated. When I was learning biology (via Khan), for example, I knew/felt comfortable with it all.....but then inundating myself with chem & 0-chem subsequently erased much of what I learned (in biology), which could easily be refreshed via flashcards. Reading up on short-term vs long-term memory capabilities in a psychology textbook reiterates the notion that repetition is a must if you want to convert short-term to long term, and I missed the boat on this one.... In other words, make flashcards early and often....

On that note, how is gold standard treating you? How would you compare it to Khan? Have you watched any of the TPR videos...can you compare it to them?

I like your schedule. Based on my interpretation of the sn2ed schedule, it is extremely important to have a great foundation laid by content review. That's why I'm doubling (or tripling/quadrupling) up on it! Your mentality on practice testing seems in line with the 30+ club... Don't neglect the test taking phase for any reason... I've read way too many stories indicating that this is the most important preparatory phase concerning the MCAT. Hopefully we can both go in with too much knowledge, and focus on the testing dynamics more than concerning ourselves with elementary dimensions of the content necessary to get through it....we'll see!

One final note before I get back to TPR for the day: Having started it now (self-paced TPR), I sorta wish I could have somehow started it earlier. There is a certain competitive/stimulative type feeling that comes with the structure of TPR (and their homework assignments). I guess what I'm saying is this... No longer am I just passively listening and learning (retaining only the very basics) via watching videos on Khan, conversely- I am now committed and held accountable (in my own mind) to making sure I can utilize knowledge gained to tackle problems/passages (mostly via homework assignments). I realize how much I DON'T KNOW, rather than having a chip on my shoulder relative to what I do know. You might consider evaluating yourself a bit earlier, so that you have a realistic feeling of what you'll need to know for the final weeks of the sn2ed schedule.

Anyways, keep me updated. I'll let you know how TPR physics went when I'm done, and whether or not I find any other source (I pretty much have them all, lol) to be most productive...

 

[MedPhys2MD]

So I just got back from a weekend trip to Vegas... As I listened to Audio Osmosis on the 4 hour drive each way, I realized that I'm not yet at the point I'm ready for it yet. I think you made an excellent point in saying that you should use it more like note card than anything else. For now, I'll just keep listening to the topics that I've reviewed elsewhere first as they talk too fast to pick up much infomation on lessons you're not familiar with.

I don't know how you find time to do all that you do and study 5-6 hours a day! I'm trying my best but between work and kids get in 2-3 hours most days. I actually changed my plans for studying from when I first posted. Now my plan is to:

1) Get through all of the material - my first pass through - by 1/1/14 using Gold Standard DVDs and Kaplan Premier book. I'm taking 2 winter session online classes that start 1/2/14. And 3 spring sememster online upper level bio classes that begin immediately after.

2) During the winter school session compile and type my notes for all of the sections. Do TPR hyperlearning questions as well

3) Start a modified sn2ed study schedule 1/26/14 and watching corresponding Chad vidoes

4) Full lengths starting 3/16

I think this will be better for me as it will allow for multiple passes through the material... But no matter what I'm determined to have 7 weeks of 3 full length exams and thorough review after each test.

As for the Gold Standard DVDs vs other visual learning aids, I haven't used any others but I can say GS is VERY VERY basic. I think he does a really good job at explaining the topics that he does cover but there's soooooooo many things that he doesn't even touch on that really need to be know for this test. Overall, I'm happy that I purchased them since it's been so long that I've been out of school and other lectures might have been more overwhelming right off the bat. But if you are more familiar with the basic topics, this might not be as useful. TPR has vidoes?? I haven't used Khan but might need to take a look at that as well - definitely realizing I'm much more of a visual learner...

How was your weekend studying? I'm working on Kalplan orog now... Keep in touch!

 

[sublyminal]

Man.... I'm having dreams (nightmares) about physics right now--- literally... I've had dreams about kinematic equations, centripetal force, and most recently - cannot get the torque equations out of my head. I'll say this about TPR: They get straight to the point. They tell you exactly what you "need" to know for the MCAT, and without a doubt - focus on teaching to the test. The unfortunate thing (for me) is that they are so down and dirty that I spend a lot (A LOT) of time filling in the gaps; Google this, google that...I waste too much time looking for explanations. Sometimes I sit and stare at a problem for 15 minutes, because I refuse to let anything pass me without a complete understanding of it. Don't get me wrong; the material is doing an excellent job at teaching me this stuff, but there is no "elementary" step to catapult me if ya know what I mean. Heck, there almost isn't even any intermediate material.....It's pretty much all straight up MCAT type questions (or so they say; which I <based on my experience so far> would have to believe). Since I haven't seen most of this stuff before (it's been over 10 years for any of it; and only had the 1st semester stuff back then), I'm learning it for the very first time. If you have a foundation, this TPR thing would probably be a really good idea to utilize your time most efficiently.

I too am a visual learner. The audio helps, but in all honesty, I can learn the stuff better on my own than listening to someone else; and do so much more efficiently. However, what I am missing is a person to consult when I have a specific question. Rather than having someone (a professor/TA) to ask, I waste lots of time searching for my answers on Google. And even then most of the intuition I gather is eventually self-contrived; sort of like those "a-ha" moments. I kinda wish I could study these books (for credit), and enlist the services of a teacher only when I need them. Sitting in a lecture (or listening to AO type material) doesn't get me very far when it comes to learning.

TPR does have videos. It's basically a ppt format where the instructor regurgitates what is in the book (in their own words). They have the ability to write their own notes on the ppt, but most of it is a verbal lecture highlighting material from the book transcribed onto the ppt. They also go through sample problems/questions during the lecture. He/she/they do give some pretty good advice from time to time, as well as little tricks/tactics (verbally) to help tackle various problems. The physics guy has specifically said, many times, "this is a MCAT type problem", or "you probably wouldn't see something like this on the MCAT." With that said, Sal Khan does a waaaayyyyyyyyyy better job teaching intuitive learning on his site. I'm telling you, if you want to learn via videos, Khan academy is the way to go. He may not be what you (we) need for the MCAT, but is definitely a go-to source when you are seeking answers.

Of the 5-6 hours/day that I'm putting in 2/3rds of it is doing problem sets and/or practice passages. The material takes about an hour to read per chapter, including sample problems, then another 2 hours or so for the lecture(s). Again, MOST of the time I'm spending is on working through problems/passages. This might change when I get to biology/chemistry (and I think those lectures are longer).