WAMC - Take 2 (14 years later and now a non-trad / career changer)

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ChuckDarwin

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Title background: I just reset my password and logged back into SDN for the first time in nearly 14 years. I was trying to create a new account as I had forgotten what my old one was or the email with which it was associated. My last posts were also WAMC posts as an undergraduate (we will call that Take 1).

So about Take 2...

Medicine was my original plan in life, as can be seen in my old posts, and I completed most of the prerequisite coursework while completing my degree in biology (2013). The death of my father in 2011 impacted my life considerably, however (something also discussed in my old posts). I had a full tuition scholarship for UG but was living at home and commuting to classes to avoid taking out loans for housing. When my father passed, I also lost my home and had to immediately become financially independent at 19. I was working in IT while taking classes because it was a natural area of interest and it paid well but I had to take on additional hours to survive. My experience with my father's battle with cancer really actually did strengthen my desire to become a physician. He was blessed with many incredible doctors who gave him additional years of good life despite the terrible prognosis of GBM. As a result of the loss and disruption, however, my focus and therefore my grades slipped and I graduated with a 3.15 cGPA (2.95 by AMCAS calculation) and AMCAS 2.78 sGPA, which is obviously not compelling for medical school. I scored a 31S on the MCAT in 2012 but ultimately did not apply due to my GPA. I reasoned that my window to become a doctor had passed and, instead, continued to work full-time in tech where I ended up pretty successful at growing, leading, and even founding cybersecurity and educational technology companies. While my career has been financially fulfilling, and has enabled financial feasibility to revisit my original dream, it has never been able to displace the desire I've had to be a physician and take care of patients. I have carried that desire for more than 20 years and I am in a position to do something about it again. I look back at who I was after my dad died and I was still basically a child. Very naive, first gen college student with poor study habits and, looking back, some deep grief I was trying my hardest to ignore. Today, 14 years later, I am far more mature, driven, and motivated at 34 than I was at 20/21, and I have an even clearer vision of how I want to spend the remainder of my working years. I have saved enough money to have some other serious commercial options that would probably generate better ROI... but I would rather use it to achieve my original goal and do something much more meaningful with my life than chase returns. I am certain that if I apply the same work ethic to my education that I have applied to the last 10 years of my professional career I can succeed.

The Plan:

Apply in Spring 2028 to start in Aug 2029.

Classes
I need to take about 34 hours, possibly more, of post-bacc BCPM courses and achieve 3.9+ across all of them, starting this upcoming fall. If my calculations are good, this should be able to get me to an AMCAS cGPA of 3.12 and sGPA of 3.05. I could spend additional years gradually trying to get that higher but I don't know that it would be worth it. At the end of the day my MCAT will have to carry me and an AdComm will have to like my overall story and recent academic performance. More below on specific classes.

EC's
While doing this, I will need to up my volunteer hours (thankfully I have been fairly involved in multiple volunteer efforts through my church for a few years), do some shadowing (have already re-established some contacts who have agreed), and get some additional clinical exposure. I will likely go volunteer at a free clinic - which I also did in undergrad originally and really enjoyed. I might also work part time in an entry level clinical role like ER Tech or Patient Care Associate at a local hospital. Those roles are always needed.

Research?
Should I try to get involved in research? My name is on 2 papers and a 1st place winning poster (UG Research Fair) from research work I did in undergrad in population genetics. I really don't have any desire to do research - I just want to take care of patients, likely in a rural practice setting.

Professional Experience
There is a lot here - I would plan to translate my resume and key professional experiences in the "Experiences" section of the application. I've had a really good career with ample leadership experience that I think will translate well.

MCAT
I scored a 31S in 2012 after doing approximately zero specific studying for it. I took a couple practice tests but didn't work to improve in any meaningful way between practice and real. I understand this translates to about a 510 in today's terms. I believe I can score a 515 at least, maybe better, if I actually put the time in.

Target School List (please suggest others, I would really like to remain as close to MO as possible):

University of Missouri
-Columbia or Springfield (rural track) campus
University of Missouri Kansas City
Saint Louis University
Alice Walton School (1.5 hours for me and it's free)
Indiana University (Terre Haute Campus rural track)
University of Illinois
Southern Illinois University

Planned Classes
  • Should I retake Gen Chem I and II or skip to Organic I and II?
    • From MCAT review, I feel that I have retained sufficient understanding of Gen Chem concepts to re-familiarize with that subject matter on my own. I believe my MCAT score will be able to sufficiently reflect my understanding of that material.
    • Organic Chem, particularly Organic Chem II, were contributors to my low GPA so I would like to jump right into Organic and demonstrate that I can excel with that material.
    • Organic I and II would be 10 hours w/ lab.
  • I currently also plan to take:
  • Phy I and Phy II - 4 hours each w/ lab
    • These were low grades in UG and I believe classes will be valuable in MCAT prep
  • Genetics - 4 hours w/ lab
  • Human Anatomy - 4 hours w/ lab
  • Human Phys - 4 hours w/ lab
  • Biochem - 4 hours w/ lab
    • These 4 classes would be to re-familiarize and get ahead of medical school curriculum
  • Total: 34 hours

Please let me know what I'm missing here. And please let me know if I'm out of my mind and have no real chance. There's so much more I can add in terms of my motivations, my professional experience, etc. but I wanted to try to distill as much as possible.

Thanks so much in advance!
 
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It is not possible to create a realistic school list without a MCAT score. Post your new score here when available. As long as your MCAT score is 500+ and your cGPA and sGPA are above 3.0 you should at least receive interviews at some of the newer DO schools.
 
It's in general a bad idea to go in with the idea that High MCAT or grades will offset low MCAT or grades. There are people who excel at classes but are poor test takers and vice versa. Med schools want the full package. I'm not saying that to discourage you, but I am telling you that so you can be as realistic as possible with your school list.

At your age in the game, I do not think you need to stress about research. If you did some undergrad, list it and that should be good enough.

Get out there and get some non-clinical volunteering hours. Do some things that will involve rural populations (like food banks and such) - in other words, put your money where your mouth is in regards to caring about rural populations - as you have already surmised, you need to up your game in areas to at least help with that GPA. Formulating an overall rural medicine narrative is a way you can do that.
 
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Welcome back!

On grades, ask your old institutions if retroactive withdrawal is an option. I would have you consider doing a new bachelor's degree if you have the time, but postbac courses should be okay.

Reach out to admissions teams at schools closest to you. They may share some best practices from other non-trad applicants.

Continue clinical exposure and build up some non-clinical community service orientation (food distribution, shelter volunteer, job/tax preparation, legal support, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation).

Think about how your evolution has built you to be ready for a health professional career. You will have much more life experience to lean on than your earlier premed days. Consider how it is an asset to your peers and how schools value it.

I admit Illinois is expensive for OOS, but their RMED program has a strong history of training.
 
It is not possible to create a realistic school list without a MCAT score. Post your new score here when available. As long as your MCAT score is 500+ and your cGPA and sGPA are above 3.0 you should at least receive interviews at some of the newer DO schools.
Fair enough - thank you for the feedback. Not mentioned in the post, but I would absolutely apply to some DO schools. Do you have any opinions on strategy for classes? I ask because organic chemistry 1 and 2, for instance, I already have B's (retakes during UG where the original grade is really dragging my AMCAS GPA). I have read some other replies on here which suggest that if a pre-req already has a C or better, don't take it again. Take some other high level BCPM instead. On one hand, I would love to not take orgo again. On the other, it would probably be helpful in MCAT prep. Thanks again.
 
Fair enough - thank you for the feedback. Not mentioned in the post, but I would absolutely apply to some DO schools. Do you have any opinions on strategy for classes? I ask because organic chemistry 1 and 2, for instance, I already have B's (retakes during UG where the original grade is really dragging my AMCAS GPA). I have read some other replies on here which suggest that if a pre-req already has a C or better, don't take it again. Take some other high level BCPM instead. On one hand, I would love to not take orgo again. On the other, it would probably be helpful in MCAT prep. Thanks again.
You do not need to retake any B classes. You can review Organic Chemistry on your own for the MCAT.
 
It's in general a bad idea to go in with the idea that High MCAT or grades will offset low MCAT or grades. There are people who excel at classes but are poor test takers and vice versa. Med schools want the full package. I'm not saying that to discourage you, but I am telling you that so you can be as realistic as possible with your school list.

At your age in the game, I do not think you need to stress about research. If you did some undergrad, list it and that should be good enough.

Get out there and get some non-clinical volunteering hours. Do some things that will involve rural populations (like food banks and such) - in other words, put your money where your mouth is in regards to caring about rural populations - as you have already surmised, you need to up your game in areas to at least help with that GPA. Formulating an overall rural medicine narrative is a way you can do that.
I tend to fall into the category of good test taker. Clearly I struggled in some classes but I believe it was a lack of work ethic and focus. I was hoping that a good MCAT could potentially offset the low GPA but it sounds like that's not realistic from your experience. That's really valuable feedback. I also totally agree with respect to volunteer efforts. I have a close contact at a local food bank that I know always needs help. I've also been involved in a program that prepares and serves crisis cold weather meals at the local shelters during winter months. I'll increase involvement there too.

Do you have any opinions on strategy for classes? I ask because organic chemistry 1 and 2, for instance, I already have B's (retakes during UG where the original grade is really dragging my AMCAS GPA). I have read some other replies on here which suggest that if a pre-req already has a C or better, don't take it again. Take some other high level BCPM instead. But I'm not sure if that's true when those pre-req's are 15 years old? On one hand, I would love to not take orgo again. On the other, it would probably be helpful in MCAT prep. Particularly if I could take it without having to take the lab component which is very time consuming and low yield.
 
Welcome back!

On grades, ask your old institutions if retroactive withdrawal is an option. I would have you consider doing a new bachelor's degree if you have the time, but postbac courses should be okay.

Reach out to admissions teams at schools closest to you. They may share some best practices from other non-trad applicants.

Continue clinical exposure and build up some non-clinical community service orientation (food distribution, shelter volunteer, job/tax preparation, legal support, transportation services, or housing rehabilitation).

Think about how your evolution has built you to be ready for a health professional career. You will have much more life experience to lean on than your earlier premed days. Consider how it is an asset to your peers and how schools value it.

I admit Illinois is expensive for OOS, but their RMED program has a strong history of training.
Thank you!

The retro withdrawal is an interesting option. I may have passed the time period for my UG but I will find out. I have an F in physics 2 from the semester my dad died. If I were a more savvy student back then, I would have appealed for that to be withdrawn as I know death of a parent is seen as an acceptable reason for appeal at my UG. Worth noting that deleting that grade raises my AMCAS cGPA and sGPA by .1

I'm glad to hear that reaching out to the admissions teams at those schools is fair game. I have written some emails but not sent them as I wasn't sure if it would be appropriate / within their scope. I also totally agree with respect to volunteer efforts.

Thank you for the feedback.
 
I went to graduate school for 8 years intervening between taking O-chem (was more like 10 years actually) and taking the MCAT. I took MCAT undergrad just after taking ochem and got a 29, then a 30. Then grad school. I took a Kaplan review course and studied on my own. MCAT 37 after being about 10 years out from taking Ochem.

If you start studying and the information is just not coming back to you, maybe consider a course retake. I'll suspect you don't have to retake though - at least in terms of prepping for MCAT.
 
The matriculation rates for older applicants are lower than for traditional applicants: around 20%. So, your chances are pretty slim.

Why do you think you'll have the energy to complete a residency at 40?
 
The matriculation rates for older applicants are lower than for traditional applicants: around 20%. So, your chances are pretty slim.

Why do you think you'll have the energy to complete a residency at 40?
Not all residency paths are created equal... there are plenty of programs out there that won't work you like a dog and this is independent of specialty choice. For example, my dad finished residency when he was about 39, and he had a whole family in tote. It can be done.
 
The matriculation rates for older applicants are lower than for traditional applicants: around 20%. So, your chances are pretty slim.
I've been able to find good data on age ranges of matriculants at US MD and DO schools but I have not found any acceptance rate data for specific schools (or in general) broken down by age / age ranges. ~25% of med school matriculants are >25. I'm sure the % of >35 matriculants is very low. But that doesn't tell me anything about acceptance rate by age. I assume far fewer >35 are also applying. Supposedly (legally?) it is a non-factor for admissions. If you have data that compares acceptance rates by age I would be very curious to see it.

Why do you think you'll have the energy to complete a residency at 40?

Why? That's an interesting question. I'm sure it would be more physically challenging than it would have been in my 20's. I am still in great health, though, and lead an active lifestyle with better diet & habits than I had back then. I can't plan the next 10 years of my life assuming my health will meaningfully decline - although of course that's always a possibility (and reason for robust insurance). My current career is very demanding of my time and energy. Long hours, lots of travel, needy clients, executives, investors... I've been 'online' and responsive 24/7 for the last 10 years. It's a fair point, though, and my age will narrow my residency options considerably I'm sure. I'm comfortable with that, though.

I went to graduate school for 8 years intervening between taking O-chem (was more like 10 years actually) and taking the MCAT. I took MCAT undergrad just after taking ochem and got a 29, then a 30. Then grad school. I took a Kaplan review course and studied on my own. MCAT 37 after being about 10 years out from taking Ochem.

If you start studying and the information is just not coming back to you, maybe consider a course retake. I'll suspect you don't have to retake though - at least in terms of prepping for MCAT.

This is really helpful insight, thank you. I've been reacquainting with O chem 1 materials in recent weeks and am finding it's coming back to me. I'm sure I'll need to do a lot of flash cards / practice tests to work on recall but it's definitely not learning from the ground up. I would rather spend those class hours taking anatomy, microbio, histology, and other courses that I haven't taken before and would help prep me for MS1.
 
Age is absolutely a factor for admissions, as it should be. Giving a seat to a 36-year old applicant is wasting it, in part, because they won't have as many productive years of clinical practice. You admit that you've already lost a number of your most productive years to your previous career. Most highly competitive professions like investment banking, big law, or management consulting don't hire people that age, and federal agents have a maximum entry age of 36. The idea that a 36-year old should be occupying a student position designed for 22-24-year olds is kind of ridiculous.

It does happen sometimes, though, the odds are just lower. There used to be this AMCAS table with acceptance rates stratified by age but it's hard to find these days: they may no longer publish it
 
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Age is absolutely a factor for admissions, as it should be. Giving a seat to a 36-year old applicant is wasting it, in part, because they won't have as many productive years of clinical practice. ...

Mind that this thinking was used to argue against giving women any medical school seats because they could spend productive years being mothers, and they would be less likely to return to be doctors.

Most highly competitive professions like investment banking, big law, or management consulting don't hire people that age, and federal agents have a maximum entry age of 36. The idea that a 36-year old should be occupying a student position designed for 22-24-year olds is kind of ridiculous.

I think you mean "positions." Investment bankers ultimately strike their own way and usually manage private equity or involved with angel investing. Also, many people in those positions will jump off and run their own businesses, which is not something one can do easily in medicine. If you wanted to do that, we've got some forums here for you. 🙂
 
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There used to be this AMCAS table with acceptance rates stratified by age but it's hard to find these days: they may no longer publish it
I forgot... there is some data about age in AAMC surveys. See references in
 
Mind that this thinking was used to argue against giving women any medical school seats because they could spend productive years being mothers, and they would be less likely to return to be doctors.

The two are legally not equivalent. To people in medicine and admissions, the Age Discrimination in Employment Act of 1967 looks like it is the age equivalent of the sex discrimination prohibitions of Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but they're not the same at all. ADEA allows schools (and employers) to use "reasonable factors other than age" to make admissions decisions, which would cover factors like "expected length of career"- so long as the admissions committee would also look down equivalently on a 22-year old applicant who claims they want to retire to Snowmass after they hit five million in their retirement account in their forties.

There's no "expected years lost due to motherhood" for Title VII, it's straight-up forbidden.

But, ultimately, you have far, far more experience in admissions than me and you know your program's preferred policies. Some programs probably don't do this.
 
Age is absolutely a factor for admissions, as it should be. Giving a seat to a 36-year old applicant is wasting it, in part, because they won't have as many productive years of clinical practice. You admit that you've already lost a number of your most productive years to your previous career. Most highly competitive professions like investment banking, big law, or management consulting don't hire people that age, and federal agents have a maximum entry age of 36. The idea that a 36-year old should be occupying a student position designed for 22-24-year olds is kind of ridiculous.

It does happen sometimes, though, the odds are just lower. There used to be this AMCAS table with acceptance rates stratified by age but it's hard to find these days: they may no longer publish it
Your argument is flawed on several points. Namely:

  • Investment banking/big law/consulting are private-sector roles with different economics... no massive public subsidy for training, and they prioritize raw hours/youth for grueling early career demands.
  • Federal agent max ages exist for physical/job-specific reasons (e.g., mandatory retirement, field fitness), not pure "productive years."
  • Medicine is different. Physicians work into their 60s-70s commonly (many practice well past 65), and specialties vary (e.g., primary care or psychiatry can have long, sustainable careers; surgical fields may wind down earlier but still offer decades).
I've noticed, even for myself as someone in their late 20's, that non-trad applicants have an easier time with OSCEs, clinicals, etc. because of having life experience and practice with servicing people. I'll use my dad again as an example because he began when he was 30, but he was basically told that he was too old. Nowadays, that's not even a concern. I started at 27, and was praised for taking time to grow up and learn the ropes first.
 
I'm a retiree from tech, now M1. Similar age as OP, but I completed a PhD straight from UG, which was my plan, and worked for 10 years, including in Wall Street proper.

I have plenty of classmates who are >30, even >40. Many parents (several with 4 kids). Commuters who drive >2h in only for mandatory attendance. Working nurses, pharmacists, dentists, OTs, psychologists, paramedics, etc. One who is all 4 simultaneously.

Speculating on how much lower your chances are due to hypothetical age discrimination is, IMO, utterly pointless. You already know you have a long uphill battle, and demoralizing yourself doesn't help. Do or do not. Your chances are decent enough that trying is not unreasonable.

And yes, classmates with life experience, not just clinical, are cruising through clinical skills and attachments.