PhD/PsyD 90 Day Notice… or Else?

[neurotic_cow]

Hey all! Hope everyone has been having a good new year!

My contract states that I have to give a 90 day notice.. but how necessary is that, really? My contract doesn’t indicate any possible ramifications if I were to give less than that. Any ideas what they could do, if anything? I work in an at-will employment state.

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[WisNeuro]

Theoretically, I believe they can sue you for compensation equal to the discrepancy of when you quit and the 90-day period. They can also claim other damages from not meeting the specified time period. If this is something you really want to do, I'd consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction first.

 

[Ollie123]

Definitely a question for an attorney. Realistically, I'd think something like that would have near-zero potential to be enforceable. That doesn't mean the company wouldn't try and/or otherwise make your life unpleasant because they're likely better set up to absorb legal costs than you are.

It pisses me off employers get away with even trying stuff like this here and just generally how not-employee-friendly our labor laws are in this country. I'd love to see fairly draconian punishments issued to any company who knowingly writes unenforceable language in employment contracts.

 

[WisNeuro]

Definitely a question for an attorney. Realistically, I'd think something like that would have near-zero potential to be enforceable. That doesn't mean the company wouldn't try and/or otherwise make your life unpleasant because they're likely better set up to absorb legal costs than you are.

It pisses me off employers get away with even trying stuff like this here and just generally how not-employee-friendly our labor laws are in this country. I'd love to see fairly draconian punishments issued to any company who knowingly writes unenforceable language in employment contracts.

It is my understanding that having signed a contract with a notice period, creates an exception to the at-will status. I agree that someone should seek legal advice, but they can technically sue you for things like "liquidated damages" or some other junk.

 

[BuckeyeLove]

And to top it off if you try to go to a competitor theyll sue your a$$ and try to enforce some garbage non compete (however it looks like those days may be coming to an end much to the chagrin of basic business bros everywhere).

 

[Ollie123]

It is my understanding that having signed a contract with a notice period, creates an exception to the at-will status. I agree that someone should seek legal advice, but they can technically sue you for things like "liquidated damages" or some other junk.

I'm sure there are exceptions on both sides to this. It likely differs dramatically by state and the degree to which the company can "prove" damages (above and beyond any effort to mitigate said damages). Hence the need for legal advice, as sued != sued and won (though whether it is worth being the hassle of being sued even if it is ultimately unsuccessful is also certainly worth considering).

 

[AcronymAllergy]

I agree that I'd consult with an attorney. Or would just plan to give the 90-day notice.

 

[erg923]

Hey all! Hope everyone has been having a good new year!

My contract states that I have to give a 90 day notice.. but how necessary is that, really? My contract doesn’t indicate any possible ramifications if I were to give less than that. Any ideas what they could do, if anything? I work in an at-will employment state.

Didn’t you just start there? Is it a mess?

 

[neurotic_cow]

Didn’t you just start there? Is it a mess?

I did! To say it is a mess is the understatement of the year. The job is a total bait and switch. No tech support and I’m scheduled for 8 full evals a week and they won’t budge on scheduling. Ethical/legal issues galore. I could go on but I won’t. After several attempts to rectify the issues and admin repeatedly brushing me off, I’ve decided to cut my losses and move on. Don’t want my license or reputation associated with this place.

I’ve accepted a job elsewhere and have already given my 90 day notice, which I plan on completing. They’ve been making my life even worse since I put in my notice (as expected) and dragging it out now that an end is in sight is really frustrating.

 

[allantois]

Theoretically, I believe they can sue you for compensation equal to the discrepancy of when you quit and the 90-day period. They can also claim other damages from not meeting the specified time period. If this is something you really want to do, I'd consult a lawyer in your jurisdiction first.

I guess you can sue for anything? But unless the contract specifies damages for not fulfilling the notice period, I doubt anyone would sue. You would most likely just be not rehireable..


You want to give your notice ASAP, and they may very well not even want to keep you for whole 90 days (this is certainly something to discuss with employer)

 

[WisNeuro]

I guess you can sue for anything? But unless the contract specifies damages for not fulfilling the notice period, I doubt anyone would sue. You would most likely just be not rehireable..

Depends on how petty the employer is. I've seen the big systems go for less than that. They already have the paperwork handy, they just have to tweak a few lines and submit. As to rehire, I doubt OP would be looking for a return in the future But, I'd still advise just slogging through the 90 days.

 

[PsyDr]

If you REALLY don’t care about returning… you could get fired. Some jobs will fire you for no call no show.

IIRC, you're also early career. Unless you have significant assets, a lawsuit doesn’t really matter.

 

[allantois]

Depends on how petty the employer is. I've seen the big systems go for less than that. They already have the paperwork handy, they just have to tweak a few lines and submit. As to rehire, I doubt OP would be looking for a return in the future But, I'd still advise just slogging through the 90 days.

Well rehire as in someone asks for reference and whether the employee is eligible for rehire..

 

[WisNeuro]

Well rehire as in someone asks for reference and whether the employee is eligible for rehire..

In participating in multiple hires, I can't remember a single instance where we spoke with a former employer, unless it was a PP owner. But, most people were not coming from those settings. We usually spoke with former supervisors (if they were coming from postdoc) or references. For neuro, we're a small-ish community, so pretty easy to find someone we know who was involved in their training, or was a former colleague.

 

[ClinicalABA]

Are you REALLY a contract worker? A lot of employers (mine included) will have employers sign a contract with stipulations like your 90 day notice, but also language stating that you are an "employee at will." IANAL, but I'm pretty sure legally you can't have it both ways. My guess is that they reserved the right to get rid of you at anytime for any non-illegal reason, and thus you have the same right to leave at any time, for any reason.

That said, it's always nice to give as much notice as you can. 90 days is a pretty long time, IMHO, if its a standard clinical job. Not as unreasonable if you are in senior management or there is something like an accreditation visit coming up in the next month or so. Always be mindful of burning bridges, particularly if it's a small specialty area. However, any employer that does more than verify dates of employment for past employees is setting themselves up for problems.

 

[WisNeuro]

Are you REALLY a contract worker? A lot of employers (mine included) will have employers sign a contract with stipulations like your 90 day notice, but also language stating that you are an "employee at will." IANAL, but I'm pretty sure legally you can't have it both ways. My guess is that they reserved the right to get rid of you at anytime for any non-illegal reason, and thus you have the same right to leave at any time, for any reason.

That said, it's always nice to give as much notice as you can. 90 days is a pretty long time, IMHO, if its a standard clinical job. Not as unreasonable if you are in senior management or there is something like an accreditation visit coming up in the next month or so. Always be mindful of burning bridges, particularly if it's a small specialty area. However, any employer that does more than verify dates of employment for past employees is setting themselves up for problems.

You can have stipulated resignation periods in at-will work states, as long as it is in writing, and you signed, it creates a legal exception.

 

[ClinicalABA]

And to top it off if you try to go to a competitor theyll sue your a$$ and try to enforce some garbage non compete (however it looks like those days may be coming to an end much to the chagrin of basic business bros everywhere).

Non-compete have been legally unenforceable for medical/clinical staff in my state (MA) for awhile, and now any non-compete is legally unenforceable unless the employer want to pay you half your salary for a year that you don't work for them (euphemistically called a "garden clause" from English Common Law- they have to pay you to stay home and work in your garden). This doesn't keep employers from putting non-competes in "contracts." In some states (like mine) an illegal clause in a contract is just void on it's own. In other states, one illegal clause renders the entire contract void. I had a labor attorney review my current contract before I signed on. Very much worth it. He told what to ignore (i.e., unenforceable stuff), and what to negotiate about.

 

[ClinicalABA]

You can have stipulated resignation periods in at-will work states, as long as it is in writing, and you signed, it creates a legal exception.

Good to know. Another reason why you should have a labor attorney review your contract. Any good employer has their attorney do the same.

 

[ClinicalABA]

You can have stipulated resignation periods in at-will work states, as long as it is in writing, and you signed, it creates a legal exception.

Do you have any idea what the enforceable damages would be for an employee who has such a clause but leaves anyway? I'd be surprised if it was anything beyond being made ineligible for rehire.

 

[WisNeuro]

Do you have any idea what the enforceable damages would be for an employee who has such a clause but leaves anyway? I'd be surprised if it was anything beyond being made ineligible for rehire.

I imagine they could try for canceled appointments that were already scheduled, cost of expedited recruitment to replace, among other things. May also depend on if they spell out the liquidated damages portion. Either way, unless it was catastrophic enough to need to leave sooner, I'd just get through those 90 days. And, if it were catastrophic, I'd have to imagine there were ethical violations in need of reporting to the board that would get you off the hook.

 

[PsyDr]

Do you have any idea what the enforceable damages would be for an employee who has such a clause but leaves anyway? I'd be surprised if it was anything beyond being made ineligible for rehire.

That depends on jurisdiction, and how they approach it. Playing it straight: Historical quarterly gross revenue for a psychologist, plus cost to hire a head hunter. Could also maybe include legal fees, and maybe damages to reputation. Some jurisdictions allow treble damages. So… like $30k-$70k, on the low end.

Most attorneys wouldn’t touch it. It's not enough money for outside counsel. Most in house counsel would think the trial would affect the company's bottom line. .

 

[futureapppsy2]

In participating in multiple hires, I can't remember a single instance where we spoke with a former employer, unless it was a PP owner. But, most people were not coming from those settings. We usually spoke with former supervisors (if they were coming from postdoc) or references. For neuro, we're a small-ish community, so pretty easy to find someone we know who was involved in their training, or was a former colleague.

If the OP wants to go VA (or other federal jobs) in the future, they will 100% contact past employers and ask this.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

If the OP wants to go VA (or other federal jobs) in the future, they will 100% contact past employers and ask this.

Federal jobs have incredibly stringent background scrutinization. They know/will know things about you that you didn’t think they could. I would not remotely play such games if any federal agency employment was in my future plan. Just describe your experience as is and let your potential employee make the most informed decision about you as an applicant. So much better than being accused of duplicity and then fired after the fact.

 

[WisNeuro]

If the OP wants to go VA (or other federal jobs) in the future, they will 100% contact past employers and ask this.

HR may, we never did in the unit.

 

[futureapppsy2]

HR may, we never did in the unit.

Yeah, this is part of suitability and fitness/public trust determination as well as credentialing. If a selected applicant is denied suitability and fitness/credentialing/public trust, they can't be hired even if the unit really wants them.

 

[borne_before]

Are you an employee or independent contractor?

 

[WisNeuro]

Are you an employee or independent contractor?

Both types of contracts can have these clauses, I believe.

 

[borne_before]

Both types of contracts can have these clauses, I believe.

I was just thinking that if OP is considered an independent contractor by the organization - the IRS likely wouldn't agree - given that the organization controls scheduling and provides tools for testing.

That may provide an opportunity to cease the relationship earlier. OP could, if they were an independent contractor, tell their employer that they were thinking about submitting form SS-8, but if the organization would simply stop scheduling new evaluations and allow them to finish the current caseload, then OP probably wouldn't have time to send in SS-8.

SS-8 would likely cause a huge headache for the organization and years of tax liabilities.

Independent contractor (self-employed) or employee? | Internal Revenue Service

Learn how to determine whether a person providing a service to you is an employee or an independent contractor.

www.irs.gov

 

[neurotic_cow]

Well, I may be off the hook for the full 90 days lol. I was previously scheduled out until my last day… but now mysteriously a month’s worth of patients have disappeared off of my schedule. I know they wouldn’t give me a full month with no patients to finish all my documentation, so I’m prepping myself for being “fired” even though I already given my resignation. I guess this answers my question about how petty they can be.

 

[neurotic_cow]

Are you an employee or independent contractor?

I’m an employee for a hospital.

 

[PsyDWannabe]

Well, I may be off the hook for the full 90 days lol. I was previously scheduled out until my last day… but now mysteriously a month’s worth of patients have disappeared off of my schedule. I know they wouldn’t give me a full month with no patients to finish all my documentation, so I’m prepping myself for being “fired” even though I already given my resignation. I guess this answers my question about how petty they can be.

Petty, perhaps, but good news for you! Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth!

 

[neurotic_cow]

Petty, perhaps, but good news for you! Don’t look a gift horse in the mouth!

Very true!!

 

[allantois]

They won’t fire you, they’ll likely just ask you to sign something stating you agree to early termination of your contract

 

[AcronymAllergy]

They won’t fire you, they’ll likely just ask you to sign something stating you agree to early termination of your contract

That seems to be a better and safer deal for them, yep.

 

[smalltownpsych]

They won’t fire you, they’ll likely just ask you to sign something stating you agree to early termination of your contract

That’s what they did at my last job…with no notice whatsoever. I put in my 90 days and after 30 days they told me I had to leave immediately. Pack up and go. Ridiculously petty.

 

[singasongofjoy]

If you've documented ethical concerns and such and efforts to rectify them and happen to mention it when you hand in your less-than-90-days notice, wonder if that would make them less likely to consider suing / causing a stink, or just more onerous because they'd be pissy.