A big loss for Mccain!

[Aznfarmerboi]

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http://www.theonion.com/content/video/gunman_kills_15_potential_voters

To make this pharmacy/healthcare related, has anybody saw the new Obama ads on healthcare? How they should go after insurance companies instead of nationalizing healthcare and raising taxes? Finally a politician that makes sense (and what we have been preaching).

(I was pro Mccain first, and a big supporter of Hilary). I was also praying for Mayor Bloomberg (who is probably the best mayor NYC has ever seen) to run. However some people said he would be better off doing what he is doing in the mayor level (coordinating with mayors of other major cities to make a big impact!)

 

[confettiflyer]

The Obama ads make no sense at all with respect to health care, though when he explained it during the debate, then it sortof made sense (basically force insurance companies to sell to people w/ pre-existing conditions). Though this will basically increase the cost for the rest of us, can't have your cake and eat it too.

McCain's $5k tax credit makes NO sense at all and doesn't address the pre-existing condition issue. So I have $5k to spend? Great, but no one will sell it to me if I have...I dunno, DM? Lovely.

 

[Lurkerkat]

McCain's $5k tax credit makes NO sense at all and doesn't address the pre-existing condition issue. So I have $5k to spend? Great, but no one will sell it to me if I have...I dunno, DM? Lovely.

This. And that's $5000 to provide health insurance for a family and $2500 for an individual. Not to mention deductibles, co-pays, and all the other costs associated with accessing health care.

 

[Sparda29]

That's why a universal health care system is needed.

 

[confettiflyer]

That's why a universal health care system is needed.

oh lord, no socialism, please. ::

 

[n0mad]

a universal health system was proposed back in the
days, Truman's era? but the physicians opposed it
passionately and so it did not get implemented...
i wonder if the physicians are still that strongly against it.

 

[dgroulx]

I think there should be universal health. Newly minted MD's can work for the government for 4 years. In return, the government pays them a decent (but not huge) salary and forgives their student loans.

This would not replace private pay insurance, but these clinics would be available for everyone who needs basic health care. I'm sure the lines would be long enough that people with insurance would still see their PCP.

 

[117296]

I think there should be universal health. Newly minted MD's can work for the government for 4 years. In return, the government pays them a decent (but not huge) salary and forgives their student loans.

This would not replace private pay insurance, but these clinics would be available for everyone who needs basic health care. I'm sure the lines would be long enough that people with insurance would still see their PCP.

+1. I could see that happening, although I'm neither for nor against universal health care/socialized medicine.

For all those against, what do you think the biggest drawbacks in socialized medicine would be? (this is the system in Canada and many European nations.)

 

[confettiflyer]

+1. I could see that happening, although I'm neither for nor against universal health care/socialized medicine.

For all those against, what do you think the biggest drawbacks in socialized medicine would be? (this is the system in Canada and many European nations.)

Biggest drawback: do you really trust the government to run health care? No way. I'm a big believer in private entities running it because of efficiency... the government can't even run social security effectively. When was the last time the government was known for efficiency? Medicare is a beast. Airline regulation was a beast and things are cheaper because of the lack of it.

There's also the issue of wait times. US health care is the best in the world...if you can get it. Our issue is access. Everyone has access to ED's and my friend jokes that ED MD's have become the PCP's of the poor.


So this might sound contradictory in that I like Obama's plan better...but it makes sense to me. Force PRIVATE industry to take on pt's with pre-existing conditions/everyone, costs go UP...but it's better than gov't taking over and TAXES going up, because the private entity will be more efficient about it, generally speaking. Either way, someone's going to pay. I'm sure they'll thrown in a subsidy/tax break, but I won't mess with details here.

As for forcing physicians to work in a clinic for the poor after graduation...the physician lobby would be too strong to allow this to go into effect. It's not in the US' tradition to force people to work a certain way, and I'm sure you'd run into legal issues as well. Interesting idea though, perhaps sweeten the pot in terms of loan forgiveness for under served areas.

Anyway, I can think of a counterargument for everything I just typed, and in no way am I claiming to have the answers, for once 🙂

 

[n0mad]

prevention and early detection is the key to chronic
and permanent debilitating illness.. if ppl cannot afford
to see the physician, how can they detect it early
enough? or to prevent it? so saying, all the current
advises about prevention and early detection are
empty words unless a universal health is in place.

as if drug price isnt a big enough pain in the butt,
you also have to pay physicians as well.. thats a double
payment for one illness.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

**** everything-ism. Capitalism routinely fails, socialism routinely fails. Anytime you sequester power and resources into one group of interests, people mess it all up. The more you can spread it out, the better. We need a solution that gives everyone coverage, yet allows practitioners to remain autonomous in their practices; or as to who they work for.

Sure as hell don't want socialized workforces. After school they'd place people based upon their grades or something equally stupid. I sure as hell wouldn't be in a hospital right now if that was the case. I'd be doing mail order if I was lucky.

 

[tncekm]

Biggest drawback: do you really trust the government to run health care? No way.

I think that's the crux of the issue. Giving iron-grip control over the health care industry to a bunch of incompetents scares me. The most efficient system our government has ever put together is the USPS, and it still sucks.

 

[Old Timer]

Biggest drawback: do you really trust the government to run health care? No way. I'm a big believer in private entities running it because of efficiency... the government can't even run social security effectively. When was the last time the government was known for efficiency? Medicare is a beast.

That's why your in school. You still have not gotten your hands around evidence to back up your claims and you repeat the right wing talking points as if they were gospel truth.

Go and look up what the percentage of dollars spent is between the inefficient government run Medicare program and the efficiently run private insurance programs.

Post back when you have the answer and you may want to, as they say in Washington, revise and extend your remarks...

When was the last time Social Security checks were late? SS runs like clock work......

 

[WVUPharm2007]

I think that's the crux of the issue. Giving iron-grip control over the health care industry to a bunch of incompetents scares me. The most efficient system our government has ever put together is the USPS, and it still sucks.

The post office kicks ass. No, seriously. Who the hell else will take 43 cents to take a letter to Hawaii? ****in' eh.

 

[Priapism321]

There's also the issue of wait times. US health care is the best in the world...if you can get it. Our issue is access. Everyone has access to ED's and my friend jokes that ED MD's have become the PCP's of the poor.

Please substantiate this claim, as all standard indicators say that your statement is beyond absurd. We rank near last when it comes to life expectancy when compared to other industrialized nations, and our expenditures are astronomically higher (eg, Per person health care expenditures: U.S. $5,000, Japan $2,000; Life Expectancy: U.S. 69, Japan 75). America ranks 22/23 in life expectancy when evaluating industrialized countries (we are better than the Czech Republic, we should throw a party). Also look at infant mortality rates, where the U.S. ranks 24/39 developed nations. Even when you correct for America performing resuscitation on extremely premature infants, we only go to 20/39.

And, before you start typing out a post stating that "American lifestyle" sways the numbers, we actually reside in the top half of industrialized countries when it comes to smoking, drinking, red meat consumption, and cholesterol.

 

[confettiflyer]

When was the last time Social Security checks were late? SS runs like clock work......

Oh yes, let's talk down to the doe eyed student for an ego boost. Boohoooooo.

In case you didn't understand what I wrote, I'm talking about POLICY not the logistics. The government is good at sending checks out. Hell, if you gave me an unlimited bank account with a multi-trillion dollar borrowing limit, I'd do a good job at paying my bills and giving out money to old farts that vote. However, running a system that's on budget and doesn't rely on BORROWING? Hah. Fat chance. Government doesn't do well with trade-offs.

USPS is the only thing that comes close like tncekm says. Amtrak is effectively a government company, look how ****ty that is.

As for private industry being more efficient...I don't think anyone on this board will argue against this fact. Private industry is constrained by shareholders, costs, profit, etc... government is not.

 

[confettiflyer]

Please substantiate this claim, as all standard indicators say that your statement is beyond absurd. We rank near last when it comes to life expectancy when compared to other industrialized nations, and our expenditures are astronomically higher (eg, Per person health care expenditures: U.S. $5,000, Japan $2,000; Life Expectancy: U.S. 69, Japan 75). America ranks 22/23 in life expectancy when evaluating industrialized countries (we are better than the Czech Republic, we should throw a party). Also look at infant mortality rates, where the U.S. ranks 24/39 developed nations. Even when you correct for America performing resuscitation on extremely premature infants, we only go to 20/39.

And, before you start typing out a post stating that "American lifestyle" sways the numbers, we actually reside in the top half of industrialized countries when it comes to smoking, drinking, red meat consumption, and cholesterol.

Those numbers are inflated because there are 40+ million people without healthcare. Life expectancy averages lump in those with access to healthcare with those who do not. In terms of cost, you've got uninsured people racking up HUGE ED costs, which explains the $3000 charge for the common cold.

US healthcare as a whole is in the toilet, I agree...but if you've got insurance and make decent $$, you've got access to the best doctors and the best technology (in terms of innovation) in the world.

 

[confettiflyer]

The post office kicks ass. No, seriously. Who the hell else will take 43 cents to take a letter to Hawaii? ****in' eh.

haha, it's not $.43....you know that pile of junk that shows up in your mailbox every day? THAT's what's really paying for that letter to HI.

 

[Old Timer]

Oh yes, let's talk down to the doe eyed student for an ego boost. Boohoooooo.

In case you didn't understand what I wrote, I'm talking about POLICY not the logistics. The government is good at sending checks out. Hell, if you gave me an unlimited bank account with a multi-trillion dollar borrowing limit, I'd do a good job at paying my bills and giving out money to old farts that vote. However, running a system that's on budget and doesn't rely on BORROWING? Hah. Fat chance. Government doesn't do well with trade-offs.

USPS is the only thing that comes close like tncekm says. Amtrak is effectively a government company, look how ****ty that is.

As for private industry being more efficient...I don't think anyone on this board will argue against this fact. Private industry is constrained by shareholders, costs, profit, etc... government is not.

You should have gone to law school or into politics. The SS was a throw away line. The basic fact is medicare operates at a about a 3% expense rate and private plans operate at between 16-25% expense rate. Medicare hides nothing. The rules are published up front. No hide and seek, prior authorizations, etc. Medicare is way more efficient then private insurance and if you were to poll doctors as to whether they would rather deal with Medicare or some stupid private HMO, Medicare would win hands down......

 

[Priapism321]

Those numbers are inflated because there are 40+ million people without healthcare. Life expectancy averages lump in those with access to healthcare with those who do not. In terms of cost, you've got uninsured people racking up HUGE ED costs, which explains the $3000 charge for the common cold.

US healthcare as a whole is in the toilet, I agree...but if you've got insurance and make decent $$, you've got access to the best doctors and the best technology (in terms of innovation) in the world.

Can you show me that the $3,000 per person is accounted for by ED charges? Sounds crazy to me, nice try. And by the way, my figures are from the WHO created "healthy life expectancy," which was created to equalize all potential confounders. So, show me something tangible that says they are inflated.

Your last post says the U.S. has the best health care in the world, just above you say it is in the toilet, which is it?

 

[Priapism321]

US healthcare as a whole is in the toilet, I agree...but if you've got insurance and make decent $$, you've got access to the best doctors and the best technology (in terms of innovation) in the world.

Well ****, thanks for pointing out the obvious. If you have plenty of money in the U.S., you can probably grab a Z-pack for any sniffle, cough, or upper respiratory infection. Or an unnecessary MRI, CT scan, etc. It's the poor people that are screwing our stats over, they shouldn't count!!

 

[Priapism321]

Those numbers are inflated because there are 40+ million people without healthcare.

Why shouldn't they count?????

 

[confettiflyer]

You should have gone to law school or into politics. The SS was a throw away line. The basic fact is medicare operates at a about a 3% expense rate and private plans operate at between 16-25% expense rate. Medicare hides nothing.

The administrative expenses for Medicare aren't as low as you think. You're forgetting the costs incurred by other agencies on behalf of Medicare (IRS, collection of tax revenue; DOJ, ensuring administrative compliance; etc..) That 2% is a deflated/misleading number.

Anyway, back to topic, rejiggering Medicare into some God-awful universal health care system isn't feasible. We won't even have enough money to pay for it beyond the next 10 years of it without jacking into our paychecks some more and cutting reimbursement rates.

In order to have a sustained, effective, and efficient health system in the US...you can't expect the Gov't to single handedly do it in a way that'll do tax payers justice. There NEEDS to be privatization such that these stakeholders have incentives to keep people healthy while giving value to those paying into it.

P.S. Social security should be scrapped and privatized, but no ambitious politician would want to commit political suicide by even hinting at that.

 

[confettiflyer]

Your last post says the U.S. has the best health care in the world, just above you say it is in the toilet, which is it?

I should adjust my terminology. US health care is the best in the world thanks to the quality of health care providers such as yourself.

But the system in distributing these quality providers/services is in the toilet. That's what I meant by "as a whole." Parts are great, system is broken.

And when distribution is broken, you get parents walking kids into the ER for a bad head cold because it's easier to get seen there than w/ a PCP. I don't need to fax you a bill comparing ED charges vs. clinic.

 

[Old Timer]

The administrative expenses for Medicare aren't as low as you think. You're forgetting the costs incurred by other agencies on behalf of Medicare (IRS, collection of tax revenue; DOJ, ensuring administrative compliance; etc..) That 2% is a deflated/misleading number.

Anyway, back to topic, rejiggering Medicare into some God-awful universal health care system isn't feasible. We won't even have enough money to pay for it beyond the next 10 years of it without jacking into our paychecks some more and cutting reimbursement rates.

In order to have a sustained, effective, and efficient health system in the US...you can't expect the Gov't to single handedly do it in a way that'll do tax payers justice. There NEEDS to be privatization such that these stakeholders have incentives to keep people healthy while giving value to those paying into it.

P.S. Social security should be scrapped and privatized, but no ambitious politician would want to commit political suicide by even hinting at that.

Even if the IRS would charge Medicare for collecting premiums, it would still not come close to the costs of private insurance. You did not address the problems inherent in 1 billion different plans and a billion different rules. You did not address the fact doctors would gladly take medicare patients over many of the private plans.

As for SS vs private plans, please, please do some research. Look at the poverty rate of seniors before Medicare and SS and after Medicare and SS. Look at the value of peoples retirement accounts this week. What would you do to people who have their retirement funds decimated right before retirement? Tough ****? Is that your answer.

Some things are better done by the government. Some things are better done by the private sector.

As for medical care. The American people have to get over the fact they can have it all. Whether the plan is public or private there will have to be limits.

You have not thought through your positions. Take them to their logical conclusion and they do not work. Stop spouting talking points......

 

[Quiksilver]

My problems with social health system:

1. has anyone thought about formulary would be if it were a socialized health care system? NYS Medicaid has restrictions on top of restrictions. Imagine the government paying for EVERYTHING for EVERYONE! You want to talk about national deficit and debt now, wait 10 years after socialized medication! Can you imagine that the government will want to pay for Lipitor for everyone? Furthermore it will never happen because of the MD's lobbying. They will strongly oppose it and who blames them?
2. The reimbursements for operations will drop like a rock, and that brings up my next problem, what is the incentive for MDs to specialize? The one advantage to the US health system is the state of the art techniques and technologies that go into health care. Why would the doctor specialize in these very narrow fields of student if the rewards are there? In the real world money trumps altruism any day of the week.
3. Pharmacists and Pharmacies will take a bigger hit then before, our reimbursement rates will be the first thing to be dropped!
4. and just think about compliance, all that tax money down the drain for Johnny's Lipitor that he isn't even taking properly because the doctors are trying to churn more patients and pharmacists more scripts to make the bottom line.

Thumbs down to socialism

 

[Old Timer]

My problems with social health system:

1. has anyone thought about formulary would be if it were a socialized health care system? NYS Medicaid has restrictions on top of restrictions. Imagine the government paying for EVERYTHING for EVERYONE! You want to talk about national deficit and debt now, wait 10 years after socialized medication! Can you imagine that the government will want to pay for Lipitor for everyone? Furthermore it will never happen because of the MD's lobbying. They will strongly oppose it and who blames them?
2. The reimbursements for operations will drop like a rock, and that brings up my next problem, what is the incentive for MDs to specialize? The one advantage to the US health system is the state of the art techniques and technologies that go into health care. Why would the doctor specialize in these very narrow fields of student if the rewards are there? In the real world money trumps altruism any day of the week.
3. Pharmacists and Pharmacies will take a bigger hit then before, our reimbursement rates will be the first thing to be dropped!
4. and just think about compliance, all that tax money down the drain for Johnny's Lipitor that he isn't even taking properly because the doctors are trying to churn more patients and pharmacists more scripts to make the bottom line.

Thumbs down to socialism

Please explain how these differ from private plans with limited formularies? They don't. This does not mean I am for full government controlled health care. I just want to stop the platitudes. Government bad Private sector good. That's nothing but pure unadulterated bull****. There needs to be a blend. Government has to regulate these plans to prevent the waste that is put in place. The purpose of the restrictions is prevent people from getting needed medications in order to boos profit.

 

[confettiflyer]

What would you do to people who have their retirement funds decimated right before retirement? Tough ****? Is that your answer.

Easy, just shift your investments into muni bonds or t-bills as you age. Same concept as your 401k/403b (I would hope someone's not 90% invested in stocks at age 60).

I'd phase out social security for anyone under 30, that way, your faithful senior voters get their benefits and we young ones don't get any false promises of it being there in 35 years. I think I've already made peace with the fact that my SS taxes aren't coming back to me.

Make it a need based system, so that would address your poor/indigent seniors. So in a way, it becomes insurance...if I live to, I dunno 120 and my 401k runs out at 100, I can apply and subsist on SS.

Once we get over that hump and pay for that last retired "full benefit" person, then just maybe we can deposit SS premiums into private accounts. Of course, that'd be too late for me, but hey I'm a patriotic kind of guy.

I think the point I'm trying to make is...these programs are great and all, but I hate the idea of a program that cannot pay for itself. I have to keep my financial house in order and not rely on debt to pay things, why should the government be any different?

 

[confettiflyer]

Government bad Private sector good. That's nothing but pure unadulterated bull****. There needs to be a blend. Government has to regulate these plans to prevent the waste that is put in place.

See, we kind of DO agree 😍

 

[gabapentin]

You don't trust the govt. at all? Just kidding. You have to be very wary with our govt in certain matters.

Switch to healthcare: Who runs Tricare and VA? Govt. agencies.
Tricare gives fantabulous benefits!
The VA hospital model is considered by some health policy researchers as one of the most perfect models of health care. The continuum of care is awesome...there may be some asbestos in the building and the old guys may be left to roll around the halls...but the VA system is the model of health care our country needs to adopt. We're fragmented! In many cases, one hand doesn't know what the other hand is doing.

Americans are so engulfed in the American Way. Get off your high horse and realize that socialized medicine is already here! cough Medicare and Medicaid cough.
I feel though that the US will never see universal coverage like the UK and Canada. Our system has been engraved with private health insurance companies. Dissolving that system would cause loss of thousands of jobs. Also, the complete switch would cost a craptabulous amounts of money, which does not seem to be readily available now.

Health care is a right and a social good and everyone deserves a piece of the pie.

 

[Quiksilver]

Please explain how these differ from private plans with limited formularies? They don't. This does not mean I am for full government controlled health care. I just want to stop the platitudes. Government bad Private sector good. That's nothing but pure unadulterated bull****. There needs to be a blend. Government has to regulate these plans to prevent the waste that is put in place. The purpose of the restrictions is prevent people from getting needed medications in order to boos profit.

i agree that formularies are a crock of ****. And I am by no means endorsing private plans, I am merely saying that it works a hell of a lot better then strict government run systems. I rather talk to the people at Medco in India then I would like to talk to the Medicaid people. For one, they don't hang up on you, 2 because it isn't government run, they can't get away with putting bull**** regulations on scripts such as a strict, rigid time limit to get an Rx filled even if it is for something like asthma. How many people do you see come in and stock up on Rx's just so they have them on file?

what the government should do is look at these drug companies and really cut down and regulate the prices of these medications and medical supplies. Really. There is no reason why a bottle of Nexium costs 80 dollars here in the US and 40-48 somewhere else! Cut the drug costs leads to smaller copay which leads to better compliance which leads to an overall improvement of the health related quality of life! These great drugs that on the market can help improve these people's disease states and they can't get them because of the price. Why doesn't the government attack these big pharma companies that are pissing away money at doctors, sales reps, and commercials during the football season!

 

[Omegadramon]

ATTN: WVU Re: McCain slip up? (or the truth)

"You know, Senator Obama's supporters have been saying some......pretty nasty things about Western Pennsylvania lately. And I couldn't agree with them more."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLVSURlFoQs



Poor guy's getting tired, I guess.

 

[WVUPharm2007]

See. Both presidential candidates think the Yinzers of W.PA. are neanderthals. It must be true.