A Competitive Application -- What's Involved?

[Procyon]

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Hi all,

I'm a first year pre-med, and I guess I'm looking for a little bit of advice as to what I should do over the next several years to prepare a competitive application. Aside from the obvious things, like a good GPA, a good MCAT, and the prerequisite coursework, what else is involved in making a competitive application?

I realize that clinical experience is a pretty big thing. I was planning on finding a physician to shadow for this. But approximately how many hours should I look to spend shadowing? And what if shadowing is my sole clinical experience...Should I try to look for other clinical experiences besides shadowing? Volunteering seems to be pretty important as well. I was looking at doing patient room service at the local hospital for a volunteering sort of thing. Is that any good?

Other than that, I'd assume extra-curriculars are pretty important. Only I'm not involved in any of them on my campus right now. To be perfectly honest, there just aren't many groups on campus that interest me. Or if they do, they meet at inconvenient times. I also commute to school, which makes getting involved with things on campus a bit complicated at times. I suppose extra-curriculars don't necessarily have to occur on campus though...What sorts of ECAs do you other pre-meds do?

Thanks for any advice you guys might have for me, I appreciate it. 🙂

 

[causalinference]

Hi all,

I'm a first year pre-med, and I guess I'm looking for a little bit of advice as to what I should do over the next several years to prepare a competitive application. Aside from the obvious things, like a good GPA, a good MCAT, and the prerequisite coursework, what else is involved in making a competitive application?

I realize that clinical experience is a pretty big thing. I was planning on finding a physician to shadow for this. But approximately how many hours should I look to spend shadowing? And what if shadowing is my sole clinical experience...Should I try to look for other clinical experiences besides shadowing? Volunteering seems to be pretty important as well. I was looking at doing patient room service at the local hospital for a volunteering sort of thing. Is that any good?

Other than that, I'd assume extra-curriculars are pretty important. Only I'm not involved in any of them on my campus right now. To be perfectly honest, there just aren't many groups on campus that interest me. Or if they do, they meet at inconvenient times. I also commute to school, which makes getting involved with things on campus a bit complicated at times. I suppose extra-curriculars don't necessarily have to occur on campus though...What sorts of ECAs do you other pre-meds do?

Thanks for any advice you guys might have for me, I appreciate it. 🙂

Shadow at least three physicians. Some people make the mistake of shadowing one physician for 300 hours. Not only is that uncalled for, but it consumes valuable time that you could be spending on other activities. I shadowed three different physicians for around 25 hours each; one was primary care and the others were not. That is really all you need.

Volunteering is more important than shadowing and should be pursued far in advance for best results. I read that the average accepted student has 1.5 years of clinical volunteering. Doing patient room service at a hospital would be great. You also have enough time to branch out and do something else. Everyone volunteers at a hospital. Try something different like a free clinic or hospice. I highly recommend volunteering at a free clinic if you can. My free clinic experience helped me out a lot because it offered me the most direct patient contact.

Also try to do something that demonstrates leadership. Leadership experience is not considered as important as clinical experience, but most medical schools look for it. While tutoring isn't technically considered leadership experience, I used it for that purpose and no one challenged me on it. There are a lot of different things you can do for this.

Research experience may or may not be necessary. It depends on the school. Some schools expect you to have it and others don't. If you have a lot of research experience, it will help you no matter where you apply. I had three years of research experience and it made my application much stronger.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Ultimately, I think a competitive application is comprised of elements of about 6 different things:

1a and 1b, in some arbitrary order, are GPA and MCAT. No, it's not all a stats race, but a certain level of academic achievement is required to convince a med school that you'll be able to handle the rigor of med school and be able to pass your boards. They are by no means the only important thing, but they are the most important thing, and you should never put either of these at risk because you want to spend more time doing a good EC.

3 is clinical experience. That includes shadowing, volunteering (and whatever that entails; obviously there are different levels of volunteering at a hospital and some are better than others, but you've gotta have SOMETHING even if you're just greeting or transporting patients), and sometimes clinical and translational research. This is the unspoken requirement for getting into med school, as you have to prove to a med school that you know what you're getting into.

4-6, in some order, is nonmedical volunteering, leadership positions, and research. Research becomes more important the higher up the USNEWS rankings you go, and might be even equally or more important than clinical experience at certain schools. At schools where research isn't a main focus, it's another nice thing to have but not required. Nonmedical volunteering speaks to your altruism, which many schools find important, and leadership, obviously, show your capacity to be a leader at their school. Generally, none of this is required (except maybe research at a couple of schools), but it certainly helps.

Other than that, it's good to have something unique and non-medical-related if possible, as it makes you seem more well-rounded. Obviously, you'll come off a lot cooler for saying you're, say, a D1 athlete than saying you once ran a 5k, but these kinds of unique things give you talking points in an interview and make you stand out more and seem more interesting to your interviewers; it's a lot easier to remember you as "that kid that had this crazy hobby" than "that kid that spent a lot of time in the hospital," since obviously lots of people will fit the second description. Again, clinical experience and the usual pre-med activities are all important, but try not to make yourself a pre-med robot and just check stuff off a list of things to do 🙂

 

[Global Warming]

GPA & MCAT.

Don't have that? Sorry, but you can't play the game.

Oh you do have that? Cool..then you can:

Do EC: volunteer, research, shadow, etc.

 

[circulus vitios]

Take a reasonable number of hours then quadruple it. "Competitive" applicants are becoming more and more robot-like. GPAs go up, MCAT scores go up, volunteering hours go up, shadowing hours go up, extra curriculars go up, etc. It's pretty disheartening for normal people like myself.

 

[skeptic29]

RESEARCH. I didn't think it was that important but believe me it is.

 

[Cytotoxic]

Knowing someone important who's willing to make a few phone calls 😉

 

[searun]

You need a good haircut and you need to look good in your suit when you interview. First impressions, opinions formed about you in the first 30 seconds, that sort of thing - so being devastatingly good looking is a big plus.

Also, it would be helpful if you are tall.

 

[icalz]

Hi all,

I'm a first year pre-med, and I guess I'm looking for a little bit of advice as to what I should do over the next several years to prepare a competitive application. Aside from the obvious things, like a good GPA, a good MCAT, and the prerequisite coursework, what else is involved in making a competitive application?

I realize that clinical experience is a pretty big thing. I was planning on finding a physician to shadow for this. But approximately how many hours should I look to spend shadowing? And what if shadowing is my sole clinical experience...Should I try to look for other clinical experiences besides shadowing? Volunteering seems to be pretty important as well. I was looking at doing patient room service at the local hospital for a volunteering sort of thing. Is that any good?

Other than that, I'd assume extra-curriculars are pretty important. Only I'm not involved in any of them on my campus right now. To be perfectly honest, there just aren't many groups on campus that interest me. Or if they do, they meet at inconvenient times. I also commute to school, which makes getting involved with things on campus a bit complicated at times. I suppose extra-curriculars don't necessarily have to occur on campus though...What sorts of ECAs do you other pre-meds do?

Thanks for any advice you guys might have for me, I appreciate it. 🙂

Whatever you do, make certain that you begin to work on securing high quality letters of recommendation. Find a professor at school or a doctor that you shadow/volunteer with and build a relationship with them. The better that they know you and your background the better the letter will be. They will have to attest to your work ethic, your natural personality, you punctuality, level of maturity and responsibility, and over all affability so ever time you go to shadow or volunteer, SHINE. There is no over-stating the importance of quality lor's when compiling a competitive app.

So, Procyon, is that short for Procyonidae...meaning racoons and such?

 

[icalz]

You need a good haircut and you need to look good in your suit when you interview. First impressions, opinions formed about you in the first 30 seconds, that sort of thing - so being devastatingly good looking is a big plus.

Also, it would be helpful if you are tall.

While I don't have any information to directly dispute this, I would imagine that most interviewers realize that we're not already doctors and are therefore not accustomed to tailored suits and alligator-skin boots. I would hope that they would allow for a wide margin of dress and focus on getting to know us as individuals before jumping to the immediate conclusion that we were, well, mediocre altogether.

 

[Zona Pellucida]

RESEARCH. I didn't think it was that important but believe me it is.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Lots of questions about mine in interviews thus far.

 

[mvenus929]

RESEARCH. I didn't think it was that important but believe me it is.

It depends on what your goals are and what schools you apply to. I have absolutely no research experience and am sitting on two acceptances right now (well, I denied one, but still...). One of my interviewers at a school I was accepted to said something like 'well, at least you don't have research experience to answer questions about. The only thing I learned from doing research is that I don't want to sit in a lab all day, but that was the focus of a number of my interviews.'

Find something you're passionate about outside of medicine, and run with it. I'm the President of a non-profit organization I've been a part of since my sophomore/junior year (so three years now). I was asked about it at a number of my interviews, and it's something I think sets me apart. Even if it's something like hobby photography or running marathons... find something to do.

 

[skeptic29]

Yeah well there are schools that focus on training clinicians and then there are others that focus on training innovators. If you want to go to a school like Jefferson, research isn't really an important thing to have on your application since Jefferson is renowned primarily for its clinical focus. If you want to go to any top 30 (maybe even top 40) school, I'd say research is very very important. It's an unwritten requirement and I doubt many people will deny this. Of course you can get accepted to medical school without any research experience, but will it be your dream school? If the answer is yes, then great. If it's no, then go do research.

 

[sully677]

Research

 

[Procyon]

Thanks all, for the insights and tips.

Whatever you do, make certain that you begin to work on securing high quality letters of recommendation. Find a professor at school or a doctor that you shadow/volunteer with and build a relationship with them. The better that they know you and your background the better the letter will be. They will have to attest to your work ethic, your natural personality, you punctuality, level of maturity and responsibility, and over all affability so ever time you go to shadow or volunteer, SHINE. There is no over-stating the importance of quality lor's when compiling a competitive app.

So, Procyon, is that short for Procyonidae...meaning racoons and such?

Huh, I didn't realize that lor's could be so important. For some reason, I seem to have it stuck in my head that adcoms only want to see one lor from your school's pre-health committee. So you should actually send in more lor's besides that then?

No, but good guess! 🙂 It's actually from the star Procyon in the Canis Minor constellation.

I also didn't realize that research could be so important, depending on where you're applying. By research, do they want to see that you're pioneering your own original research, or just helping someone experienced (i.e., a professor) with their research in some capacity?

 

[rockaction]

Research

And publications ain't bad either

 

[Jolt21]

in addition to all the basics covered in this thread...something different

and when you figure out what that different thing is, excel at it and show passion

music, art, writing, sports, a fraternity, SOMETHING.

every school harps on diversity, and some schools want you to write about what you could bring to their school to increase diversity. if you just do all these typical cookie-cutter things, you wont really bring anything. prove to them you aren't the typical pre-med.

 

[Jolt21]

Other than that, it's good to have something unique and non-medical-related if possible, as it makes you seem more well-rounded. Obviously, you'll come off a lot cooler for saying you're, say, a D1 athlete than saying you once ran a 5k, but these kinds of unique things give you talking points in an interview and make you stand out more and seem more interesting to your interviewers; it's a lot easier to remember you as "that kid that had this crazy hobby" than "that kid that spent a lot of time in the hospital," since obviously lots of people will fit the second description. Again, clinical experience and the usual pre-med activities are all important, but try not to make yourself a pre-med robot and just check stuff off a list of things to do 🙂

quoted for truth

 

[GoSpursGo]

And publications ain't bad either

They definitely help, but aren't really necessary for you to have "quality" research experience as an undergrad. Adcoms realize that a lot of to get a pub as an undergrad, a lot can come down to luck; you have to hook on with the right prof at just the right time where one of his projects is about to have good results. It's very easy to hook onto a prof whose project seems promising and then just hits a brick wall during your time there. For example, I did two years of research as an undergrad and didn't get a publication because what we did simply didn't work. I still got asked about my research a lot at interviews and because I was able to show that I knew exactly what I was doing, it looked good.

in addition to all the basics covered in this thread...something different

and when you figure out what that different thing is, excel at it and show passion

music, art, writing, sports, a fraternity, SOMETHING.

every school harps on diversity, and some schools want you to write about what you could bring to their school to increase diversity. if you do all these typical cookie-cutter things, you wont really bring anything. prove to them you aren't the typical pre-med.

I definitely agree. You'd be surprised how often those random activities you put on your AMCAS that have nothing to do with medicine come up in your interviews. Even if theoretically it has nothing to do with how good of a doctor you'll ultimately be, it'll make your interview that much more interesting and unique, making it more likely that your interviewer will just "like you." When everyone is fairly well-qualified and thus admissions decisions wind up being somewhat arbitrary at times, sometimes that will put you over the top.

 

[Jolt21]

everyone is trying to not be a typical pre-med by not doing "cookie-cutter" things that it actually does make them typical

that's why its important to excel at it too, not just do it leisurely.

 

[rockaction]

They definitely help, but aren't really necessary for you to have "quality" research experience as an undergrad. Adcoms realize that a lot of to get a pub as an undergrad, a lot can come down to luck; you have to hook on with the right prof at just the right time where one of his projects is about to have good results. It's very easy to hook onto a prof whose project seems promising and then just hits a brick wall during your time there. For example, I did two years of research as an undergrad and didn't get a publication because what we did simply didn't work. I still got asked about my research a lot at interviews and because I was able to show that I knew exactly what I was doing, it looked good.

I only said that cause sully677 just got his first pub, haha

 

[TheMightySmiter]

Huh, I didn't realize that lor's could be so important. For some reason, I seem to have it stuck in my head that adcoms only want to see one lor from your school's pre-health committee. So you should actually send in more lor's besides that then?

LoRs from professors/physicians/employers/other people who know you well are a PART of your pre-health committee letter packet. Generally, you'll submit 3-5 letters to the committee who will decide whether or not to recommend you. If they do, they'll send a letter saying how highly they recommend you and how you compare to the rest of the class. They'll include your other recommendations in the packet.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I only said that cause sully677 just got his first pub, haha

Ha, nice 👍

 

[Jolt21]

LoRs from professors/physicians/employers/other people who know you well are a PART of your pre-health committee letter packet. Generally, you'll submit 3-5 letters to the committee who will decide whether or not to recommend you. If they do, they'll send a letter saying how highly they recommend you and how you compare to the rest of the class. They'll include your other recommendations in the packet.

oh, this reminded me...

since you're a first year pre-med, i cant stress the importance of great, personal relationships with profs. make and maintain them for all 4 years. it will make your letters that much better. i took the profs i appreciated the most out for coffee every 6 months, so i could keep them updated on my life, and they could update me on theirs as well. when the time came, no prof needed a transcript or personal statement to write my letters. they all knew me on a personal level.

 

[GoSpursGo]

oh, this reminded me...

since you're a first year pre-med, i cant stress the importance of great, personal relationships with profs. make and maintain them for all 4 years. it will make your letters that much better. i took the profs i appreciated the most out for coffee every 6 months, so i could keep them updated on my life, and they could update me on theirs as well. when the time came, no prof needed a transcript or personal statement to write my letters. they all knew me on a personal level.

This is good advice as well. I didn't go to quite those lengths, but you want to have profs that can say something beyond, "So and so got an A in my Organic Chemistry class." I should stress that I don't think letters are nearly as important as everything else (unless you screw up badly and ask for a letter from someone who actively tries to sabotage you), but it's something to start thinking about; even just going into office hours can really help a prof get to know you better and it'll help you with your classes anyways.

 

[GTV]

Here's some advice I wish I had followed from my first year in college:

1) GET TO KNOW YOUR PROFS!!! I was that kid who never went to office hours because I didn't want to be "a nuisance" and I truly perceived that my asking for help would make me come off as too stupid to learn the material myself. My philosophy was that if I could learn without their help, then why bother them? In addition, I would say that in 80% of my classes I never once even spoke to the professors or asked any questions in class because I was so afraid of being "that kid." This came back to bite me when I was seeking LORs. Luckily, I think I got solid recs from 2 of my profs that I actually did know well, but the third, not so much, and I really think that I would be much better off today if I had just not been so damn stubborn and went to office hours.

2) Do research, and start early. Like, freshman year. Get a good 3 years of research experience under your belt when you apply. I sure wish I had.

3) Take an MCAT course, and don't trust the "official AAMC practice tests" to be an accurate indicator of your real performance. I like to study myself, and I figured that if I was getting 37 and 38 on AAMC practice tests, then I would do similar on the real thing. WRONG! It's WAY harder. Kaplan and Princeton Review realize this and prepare you for the worst, from what I hear. I feel like I could have done better if I had taken a prep class.

4) Get involved in ECs. I don't just mean participate. I mean get really involved and take on leadership positions.

 

[icalz]

Thanks all, for the insights and tips.



Huh, I didn't realize that lor's could be so important. For some reason, I seem to have it stuck in my head that adcoms only want to see one lor from your school's pre-health committee. So you should actually send in more lor's besides that then?

No, but good guess! 🙂 It's actually from the star Procyon in the Canis Minor constellation.

I also didn't realize that research could be so important, depending on where you're applying. By research, do they want to see that you're pioneering your own original research, or just helping someone experienced (i.e., a professor) with their research in some capacity?

Find a professor that you like, ask them if they are doing any ongoing research and ask if they need any help! They're usually grateful for any free labor. Sometimes the prof will have a webpage that discusses their research and you can browse through it to come up with some talking points.

 

[s1lver]

Saving babies in Africa.

 

[bannie22]

 

[Eyti]

.

 

[mvenus929]

Huh, I didn't realize that lor's could be so important. For some reason, I seem to have it stuck in my head that adcoms only want to see one lor from your school's pre-health committee. So you should actually send in more lor's besides that then?

It depends entirely on your school. Mine doesn't have a pre-health committee, so I had to get 3-5 LORs to send in to each school. Some pre-health committees will put together a packet, and some will put together a letter based on the letters that you turn in. In the end, you will have to get good individual letters from your professors, whether the adcoms end up seeing them or not.

 

[sully677]

I only said that cause sully677 just got his first pub, haha

Rockaction...you seem to know me so well haha

 

[slowbutsteady]

You need a good haircut and you need to look good in your suit when you interview. First impressions, opinions formed about you in the first 30 seconds, that sort of thing - so being devastatingly good looking is a big plus.

Also, it would be helpful if you are tall.

And definitely NOT fat.

Very heavy friend of mine with a totally killer app in every way got 16 (out of 18) interviews and wasn't accepted anywhere until February. And that was a school pretty far down her list.

So freshman: Hit the gym!!!

 

[icalz]

And definitely NOT fat.

Very heavy friend of mine with a totally killer app in every way got 16 (out of 18) interviews and wasn't accepted anywhere until February. And that was a school pretty far down her list.

So freshman: Hit the gym!!!

This is really funny because at my last interview, during the opening presentation, I looked around and realized that there were no fat applicants. And then I realized that I hadn't seen any fat applicants at any of my interviews (all the while the Dean is talking away...). I thought that was a fairly curious thing. I can only recall one premed that was definitely obese but he dropped both of the classes we were in together and I haven't seen him since. Hmmmm....

I thoroughly apologize if *fat* is not the politically correct term....it's just the easiest to type.

 

[FlowRate]

I remember being shocked when I saw that the staff at a med school were fat. It made me realize that I need to make sure I'm in great shape for interview season, so that I don't give off the impression that I'm involved in medicine but ignore one of the most important parts of personal health!

 

[jckut10]

.

 

[JJMrK]

The one thing you can do early and often is maintain your GPA. Get it high early and keep it high.

Study hard for the MCAT. I'm talking 3-4 solid months, 10+ practice tests, and don't take it if you aren't scoring well on the practice tests.

As far as ECs (this is from my experience):
You need clinical exposure, but it's not terribly important how you do it. IMO, volunteering in some type of clinical setting is probably the best way to get it, because you knock out 2 birds with one stone (clinical experience AND volunteering). A free clinic would probably be cool because you might get to observe/do more. If you take a typical ER position you'll probably just be running errands. You probably want 100-150 hours minimum in this category.

I'm not a fan of shadowing and didn't do any. People use it to justify to an adcom that they know what they're getting into, but I was able to do this in other ways. I don't like it because: 1) It's a passive activity, you don't really DO anything. 2) It's not volunteering. 3) You can get clinical exposure AND volunteering done at the same time via other activities.

IMO, research is a huge component of a successful application, especially at the bigger name schools. My research was the subject of at least 50% of every single one of my interviews. If you can talk about it, have presented posters/given talks, and/or have a publication, research is pretty impressive. I also think it's becoming a larger and larger part of med schools applications, and more and more applicants have some type of research. When looking for a research position, look for 2 things: 1) Are you going to get published/give talks/present posters? 2) Are you going to be paid? Both of these things sort of tie into how much funding the PI has, so pay attention, ask around, and be picky when choosing a lab to work in. (But not annoying, obviously.)

Leadership can be important, but I don't know that it's worth doing something just for the "leadership" component. If you volunteer or do research for long enough, you'll probably get put in charge of something. Obviously if you want to run for student council or something, go for it, but don't do it just to help your med school application.

Outside activities/hobbies/non-medical volunteering: Do things you enjoy, don't overload yourself with 10000 different activities, and don't do things just for your application. The more you enjoy these, the more convincingly you can talk about them in an interview, and the better your college experience will be.

Have a story. This is what gets your application picked out from a pile of people with similar stats, read, and invited for an interview. Try to shape your activities around your story. Do things that fit together, have reasons if you quit something to start something else, and be consistent. A lot of this is going to depend on your personal statement. If you are a good writer you will have a huge advantage. If you aren't, work on those skills now and have people proofread your essay.