A controversial thought

[bruinmojo]

This might be a shocking and offending question to some, but i'll ask it anyways.

I have been having second thoughts of whether or not to apply to Albert Einstein and Mount Sinai. Reason? Even though I am agnostic, I have a Muslim background and I am Iranian, as I often mention in my application of my involvement with my school's iranian student group. Why would that matter you ask?

well, as Sinai indicates in its website:

The Mount Sinai Hospital was founded in 1852 as the Jews' Hospital in the City of New York, but it was another century before a school of medicine was created at Mount Sinai.


your point? you ask. Well, while I'm sure the commitee members in both schools hold a diverse population of free thinking, race respecting bunch of people, I am worried whether my application will fall in the hands of some people who, because of their lack of exposure with iranians, or muslims, may have some sort of bias and not be interested at all with my application. It's just that when $100 is involved, I want to be careful.

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[DW]

hmm, thats an interesting question,
My best friend goes to einstein, and he's a practicing jew. When I went to visit him, I did meet two muslim girls in my short time there (one of which was absolutely gorgeous too, so thats incentive for ya). I'm not so sure about Sinai but Einstein has a lot of jewish kids there, it is an affliate of Yeshiva afer all. But I at least have first hand knowledge there are a couple muslims at einstein, so I wouldn't sweat it, it seemed like a very open minded atmosphere.

 

[kaos]

Look, anywhere you go in life, you're gonna face that stuff, whether it be outright or behind your back. This is something important to you, so regardless of religion or ethical background, you shouldn't let fear hold you back. If they reject you for that reason, it's their loss. But you should at least trust them to not make such a superficial decision.

 

[JumboFool]

while I'm sure the commitee members in both schools hold a diverse population of free thinking, race respecting bunch of people, I am worried whether my application will fall in the hands of some people who, because of their lack of exposure with iranians, or muslims, may have some sort of bias and not be interested at all with my application.

I think about that potential discrimination all the time, when I'm applying to all sorts of different things. And I'm Jewish, born in Israel. There are more anti-semites out there than you might think. It's hard to believe, especially if you were raised in an area with a lot of Jews (like I was). But I get nervous every time I list my birthplace on an app. There are a lot of Israel haters out there.

So it's actually interesting that in this situation it is a non-Jew worrying about discrimination by a "Jewish" institution. For me, this is kind of a funny role reversal. So welcome to the club, Bruinmojo

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by JumboFool


I think about that potential discrimination all the time, when I'm applying to all sorts of different things. And I'm Jewish, born in Israel. There are more anti-semites out there than you might think. It's hard to believe, especially if you were raised in an area with a lot of Jews (like I was). But I get nervous every time I list my birthplace on an app. There are a lot of Israel haters out there.

So it's actually interesting that in this situation it is a non-Jew worrying about discrimination by a "Jewish" institution. For me, this is kind of a funny role reversal. So welcome to the club, Bruinmojo

I'm sorry, but I really don't see how that's funny. I find that many of my friends who are minorities, such as Hispanics, blacks, and Native Americans, are always worried about making big moves like applying for certain jobs or to med school for fear of discrimination. In choosing med schools, they're very concerned about the religious preferences or location of the school. In their case, they're more like the senior members of the "club." I think Bruinmojo's got a very legitimate concern--no mattter where he goes. After all, it might not be a problem at Mt. Sinai. Jews usually aren't the only ones being discriminated against, particularly these days. You don't have to be smug about it, or act like you're the only one who might face discrimination.

 

[Su4n2]

there's plenty of discrimination against jews outside big cities in the us. when i was backpacking through montana, i stopped in this little town to eat and met these people at a counter. it came up that i was jewish, and they started to look at me all weird cause they said that i can't really be jewish because i don't have horns. this is just a story to demonstrate that there are plenty of ignorant people out there who discriminate against people that they don't know- including muslims, african americans, etc. but to the original poster and the israeli guy, i would tend to think that admissions comittees are pretty PC, fearing lawsuits and stuff. good luck!

 

[JumboFool]

whoa. I meant funny as in strange and interesting (you know, "hmm, that's funny"), not as in gut-busting funny. so relax kaos. I wasn't trying to be "smug." It's not as if I'm thrilled about people being discriminated against.

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by bruinmojo
This might be a shocking and offending question to some, but i'll ask it anyways.

I think you're like Eminem -- you really aren't all that shocking but you'd like to think you are being so.

 

[none]

If you're actually interested in either school, apply, and decide at the interview stage if you like the environment.

 

[vixen]

Originally posted by Diogenes


I think you're like Eminem -- you really aren't all that shocking but you'd like to think you are being so.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by Diogenes


I think you're like Eminem -- you really aren't all that shocking but you'd like to think you are being so.

 

[Tweetie_bird]

I am Persian blood but born and brought up in India. I have seen discrimination from all sides--being very light skinned and being brought up in India in itself was weird. Now that I'm in the states, I still see a bit of attitude when I tell people who I really am.

In any case, my point is there's discrimination where ever you go. You make sure that you're the first to break the stereotype. That's how I think of myself. If they ain't used to seein one like me, they gotta get used to it! And if i have to pay 100 bucks to get my foot in the door, so be it.

Tweetie

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by Tweetie_bird
I am Persian blood but born and brought up in India. I have seen discrimination from all sides--being very light skinned and being brought up in India in itself was weird. Now that I'm in the states, I still see a bit of attitude when I tell people who I really am.

In any case, my point is there's discrimination where ever you go. You make sure that you're the first to break the stereotype. That's how I think of myself. If they ain't used to seein one like me, they gotta get used to it! And if i have to pay 100 bucks to get my foot in the door, so be it.

Tweetie

You go girl! Tell it like it is!

 

[agent]

if i were you, i wouldnt apply at a jewish school, but thats just me.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

FYI: Mount Sinai has a student organization called the Persians in Medicine Society.

 

[Bounty]

Originally posted by Doctor Octopus
FYI: Mount Sinai has a student organization called the Persians in Medicine Society.

Well that doesn't really say much because there is a large population of Jewish Persians.

I think that bruinmojo has a valid point - I am also persian from Muslim background (but I dont practice any religion) and I still haven't decided whether to apply to those schools. Not because I think they will discriminate against me, but because I have never been a fan of mixing school and religion.

 

[kaos]

I love it when people call themselves Persian rather than Iranian--it sounds much more exotic.

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Originally posted by Bounty


Well that doesn't really say much because there is a large population of Jewish Persians.

I think that bruinmojo has a valid point - I am also persian from Muslim background (but I dont practice any religion) and I still haven't decided whether to apply to those schools. Not because I think they will discriminate against me, but because I have never been a fan of mixing school and religion.

Oh, well forget it then. It must only be for Jewish Persians. You guys don't have a chance. The Mount Sinai Christian Fellowship is probably only for Jewish Christians as well.

 

[Bounty]

You know, so many people comment on the Persian/Iranian that I finally want to say something about it.
I know a lot of people think that iranians say "persian" just to distance themselves from stereotypes of hostage-taking terrorists. This may be true for some people to some extent but there actually IS a difference between Persian and Iranian.

Iranian is a nationality, Persian is a cultural heritage.
You can be Iranian and not Persian. You can also be Persian and not Iranian. There are plenty of Armenian-Iranians for example and there are people of Persian descent who have never lived in Iran.

I read somewhere, i think in National Geographic, that Iran has one of the highest refugee populations in the world. The US is not the only country where people with many different cultural backgrounds live. Just because people all look "the same" does not mean they share the same heritage.

Ok I hope that made sense.
Bounty

 

[pbehzad]

salaam bruinmojo
im practicing iranian muslim, and i dont think you should worry about them rejecting you cause of your background or the political instability in the mideast.
my undergrad school has about 35-40% jewish student population. my freshman hall was half jewish, but most of the guys were real cool, and i had no problem with any of them even though we come from different backgrounds and have different views.
mt. sinai and einstein are great schools and if you are a strong applicant im sure tahts all they care about. good luck.

 

[Bounty]

Originally posted by Doctor Octopus


Oh, well forget it then. It must only be for Jewish Persians. You guys don't have a chance. The Mount Sinai Christian Fellowship is probably only for Jewish Christians as well.

Doc Octopus,
I wasn't trying to put down what you wrote. I was just saying that Jewish and Persian are not mutually exclusive. Jewish and Christian, on the other hand, are.
Bounty

 

[Doctor Octopus]

Originally posted by Bounty


Doc Octopus,
I wasn't trying to put down what you wrote. I was just saying that Jewish and Persian are not mutually exclusive. Jewish and Christian, on the other hand, are.
Bounty

No prob. Sorry if that came off as mean. I just meant it to be kinda funny/sarcastic. I think Sinai values diversity. You guys who have these concerns might want to contact some of their students and ask about this.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by Bounty
You know, so many people comment on the Persian/Iranian that I finally want to say something about it.
I know a lot of people think that iranians say "persian" just to distance themselves from stereotypes of hostage-taking terrorists. This may be true for some people to some extent but there actually IS a difference between Persian and Iranian.

Iranian is a nationality, Persian is a cultural heritage.
You can be Iranian and not Persian. You can also be Persian and not Iranian. There are plenty of Armenian-Iranians for example and there are people of Persian descent who have never lived in Iran.

I read somewhere, i think in National Geographic, that Iran has one of the highest refugee populations in the world. The US is not the only country where people with many different cultural backgrounds live. Just because people all look "the same" does not mean they share the same heritage.

Ok I hope that made sense.
Bounty

Yeah, thanks a lot! That cleared things up quite a bit...but I still like "Persian"!

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by Doctor Octopus


Oh, well forget it then. It must only be for Jewish Persians. You guys don't have a chance. The Mount Sinai Christian Fellowship is probably only for Jewish Christians as well.

 

[Femtochemistry]

hey,

I also applied to AE, and yes, i am muslim. I really would love to go there (the avatar might give it away).

I don't have a problem with Jews or any race, in fact, my best friend in H.S was jewish.


good luck.

 

[mikegoal]

i am orthodox jewish i went to Yeshiva university undergrad and i really dont think you will have a problem. Most jews do not discriminate just as most people of other races dont. It is just those few that cause all the problems. good luck

 

[bruinmojo]

Ahh, just checked the forum. Blazed a nice set of conversations here I see. You all make some good points. I'm probably gonna go head and apply to both of them, because I just love New York.

The fact that there is a "Persians in Medicine Society" in Sinai is a bit relieving.

QUOTE]I think you're like Eminem -- you really aren't all that shocking but you'd like to think you are being so.[/QUOTE]

you have to admit though, it made you turn your head.

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by bruinmojo
you have to admit though, it made you turn your head.

No, no, you've got the wrong axis of rotation. It made me do this: .

 

[carddr]

Discrimination is rampant in the world...some cope with it better than others. Often it's not racial hatred it's racial distrust, maybe based on experiences, exposures, education, culture, some intentional but most times unintentional. I remember when I was with a friend in another country(asian, actually) and we walked into a restaurant and sat down, my friend begin to tell me that the group of people across the room were debating whether to attack me,some mentioned the word kill, just because I was white and with an asia girl. I chose to ignore them and they soon left but not without making us feel uncomfortable. Needless to say I didn't leave the restaurant until I felt safe again. While this is an insignificant story, the point being there is discrimination in any country, toward ALL people in one shape or form. Stay aware of it but don't make it your life's work, do what you want to do, you do not have the problem, they do. And make sure you don't fall into the trap of discriminating against someone, something like "getting even".

 

[gryffindor]

I fail to see what is so controversial about your issue. You are trying to apply to schools founded on Jewish thought over 100 years ago. These schools are in NYC, which is now probably the most culturally diverse and place in this country. Therefore the people on the adcoms at these school live in a very diverse area and are medical doctors in NYC, a profession where there are people of many backgrounds and religions, especially in NYC. What is the problem here? I almost think you are trying to create your own problem. I would think those schools get applications all the time from all different people. Your scenario is not unique. I joined a professional fraternity at school and later found out that it was founded on principles of Judaism yet I am not Jewish. It has more Jewish members that those of other faiths, but we have members who are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, agnostic, etc. in our organization and it only adds to the diversity. It doesn't create tension and those member actually learn a thing or two about Judaism rather than feel excluded. You'll never know unless you try and if these schools don't give you an interview, you could always make yourself feel better by blaming it on your background, but I highly doubt that would be the case here.

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by griffin04
I fail to see what is so controversial about your issue. You are trying to apply to schools founded on Jewish thought over 100 years ago. These schools are in NYC, which is now probably the most culturally diverse and place in this country. Therefore the people on the adcoms at these school live in a very diverse area and are medical doctors in NYC, a profession where there are people of many backgrounds and religions, especially in NYC. What is the problem here? I almost think you are trying to create your own problem. I would think those schools get applications all the time from all different people. Your scenario is not unique. I joined a professional fraternity at school and later found out that it was founded on principles of Judaism yet I am not Jewish. It has more Jewish members that those of other faiths, but we have members who are Christian, Hindu, Muslim, agnostic, etc. in our organization and it only adds to the diversity. It doesn't create tension and those member actually learn a thing or two about Judaism rather than feel excluded. You'll never know unless you try and if these schools don't give you an interview, you could always make yourself feel better by blaming it on your background, but I highly doubt that would be the case here.

Excellent post. "Eminem" take note!

 

[bruinmojo]

well, I do agree with New York being one of the most diverse cities in the world. I have lived there and love it for what it is.

But also know where I come from. People who come from Iran or have Muslim backgrounds have gone through discrimination many times in the past. Whether at airports, or anywhere else.

My brother was actually harassed in New York in his hotel when someone had called in with a muslim name and stated there was a bomb in there. Because of my brother's very common muslim name, he was immediately bombarded with FBI agents in his hotel room. And when he was asked what his citizenship status is, and even though he is a citizen, it's annoying to have to hear the agent make the point, "but you're a naturalized citizen."

The hotel made the hotel stay free afterwards, but that's because he was kept up till 4:00 in the morning several hours before his interview.

So for those who might find this an unrealistic point to make on my part, this is just where I'm coming from. While I know cultural diversity is nowadays glorified more and more, some of us have faced different types of discrimnation. However, I'm pretty confident that the medical profession shares a very open-minded group of people, and that this shouldn't be a problem. But I'm pretty sure anyone with my background has atleast for a second thought about these things.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by carddr
Discrimination is rampant in the world...some cope with it better than others. Often it's not racial hatred it's racial distrust, maybe based on experiences, exposures, education, culture, some intentional but most times unintentional. I remember when I was with a friend in another country(asian, actually) and we walked into a restaurant and sat down, my friend begin to tell me that the group of people across the room were debating whether to attack me,some mentioned the word kill, just because I was white and with an asia girl. I chose to ignore them and they soon left but not without making us feel uncomfortable. Needless to say I didn't leave the restaurant until I felt safe again. While this is an insignificant story, the point being there is discrimination in any country, toward ALL people in one shape or form. Stay aware of it but don't make it your life's work, do what you want to do, you do not have the problem, they do. And make sure you don't fall into the trap of discriminating against someone, something like "getting even".

WHAT?? Where did this happen?

 

[USeF]

anybody listen to Loveline w/ Dr. Drew and Adam Corolla?
A person calls in about their abusive boyfriend or how they can't commit to someone and they try to excuse it away when finally Drew goes "so you were you molested as a child?"
".... actually, yeah"
"bingo!"

of course there had to have been some ghost-in-the-closet for this otherwise impractical fear of prejudice. As everyone else posted on here- apply. Especially now that you've expressed your devotion to the Big Apple. Still not convinced? Want anecdote? I'll give you anecdote.

I applied last year and was writing secondary essays in August to Jesuit-based institutions such as Georgetown, med schools in NYC like Cornell and answering questions blatantly about faith from U of Chicago. These applications were processed on or just after September 11, 2002. If ANYONE should've been scared, it would've been this little muslim right here. Yet, I was confident in the application I had and the type of persona that I would display and most importantly in: the non-prejudiced way I lead my own life. The best way you can personally fight prejudice is to have friends as diverse as possible to help you get out of the mindsight of prejudice. Like Femto stated earlier, I too have a Jewish best friend I've known for 12 yrs.

 

[USeF]

almost forgot-
I got interviewed at 2 of those 3 places and as you see in my signature, will be attending 1.

I will be honest, I had some pretty brutal questions that were a bit 'off-topic' if you know what I mean. More importantly (for me) I had some great positive comments @ Pitt and some other places about the understanding and non-prejudiced decision making the interviewers had seen in the committees in light of such emotional times.

 

[kaos]

Ok, I'm getting really annoyed with a few posters in here who just don't seem to get it. It's not ridiculous; I don't know why you're belittling Bruinmojo's concerns by rolling your eyes. Jews are NOT the only people who are discriminated against. You make it sound like they're the ONLY people in the world who need to be recognized as having gone through all kinds of adversity in discrimination. And it's just not true! We're hearing here all these stories about terrible things that people have said to others of different races and religions. We all just need to be more open-minded and less assuming. Bruinmojo isn't doing anything wrong; he just wanted to know if he had a legitimate concern. Fortunately, he has nothing to fear in applying to Mt. Sinai or any other school. He's not afraid of Jews; he's afraid that he'll be discriminated against for being Iranian. I don't understand why some of you are putting him down for having these worries. We all think about them!

Bruinmojo, GO AHEAD AND APPLY. Period. Thanks for listening to me vent!

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by kaos
Ok, I'm getting really annoyed with a few posters in here who just don't seem to get it. It's not ridiculous; I don't know why you're belittling Bruinmojo's concerns by rolling your eyes. Jews are NOT the only people who are discriminated against. You make it sound like they're the ONLY people in the world who need to be recognized as having gone through all kinds of adversity in discrimination. And it's just not true! We're hearing here all these stories about terrible things that people have said to others of different races and religions. We all just need to be more open-minded and less assuming. Bruinmojo isn't doing anything wrong; he just wanted to know if he had a legitimate concern. Fortunately, he has nothing to fear in applying to Mt. Sinai or any other school. He's not afraid of Jews; he's afraid that he'll be discriminated against for being Iranian. I don't understand why some of you are putting him down for having these worries. We all think about them!

Bruinmojo, GO AHEAD AND APPLY. Period. Thanks for listening to me vent!

It has nothing to do with Jews being the "only group that is discriminated against." The eye-rolling is because if you spend your whole life worrying about being discriminated against, you'll never accomplish anything because you'll just be paralyzed by fear of rejection/discrimination. People need to chill out and just soldier on.

 

[kaos]

Originally posted by Diogenes


It has nothing to do with Jews being the "only group that is discriminated against." The eye-rolling is because if you spend your whole life worrying about being discriminated against, you'll never accomplish anything because you'll just be paralyzed by fear of rejection/discrimination. People need to chill out and just soldier on.

Blah blah, good advice, bad delivery. Who said it was his whole life, anyway?

But you're right. If people don't stop, when will it end?

 

[Lolly]

I interviewed at Einstein last year post 9/11. The student with whom we had lunch was not Jewish and he had a middle eastern/south asian features (I apologize if that is an ignorant comment.... I do not remember his exact background as it was over a year ago). He was VERY happy at Einstein. He absolutely loved everything about it and said that he never felt out of the loop. While aspects of Einstein are very Jewish--the library is closed on sat, if I remember correctly--the student body is still pretty diverse.

Both are great schools--Good Luck!!

 

[Tweetie_bird]

Originally posted by Diogenes


if you spend your whole life worrying about being discriminated against, you'll never accomplish anything because you'll just be paralyzed by fear of rejection/discrimination.

Very powerful words. I agree with him, for once.

 

[Diogenes]

Originally posted by Lolly
...the library is closed on sat...

Religion aside, that's the way it should be!

 

[ckent]

Go ahead and apply. The school was founded by a couple of Jewish people, not the KKK. If they are summarily rejecting muslim students for being muslim, then you at least have an opportunity to be a part of a class action suit. That's what makes the US so great. Not the lawyers, but the fact that there are laws out there to prevent these sorts of things from happening.

 

[bruinmojo]

well, im glad i brought it up. I personally liked the discussion we just had. I would say Kaos summed it all up pretty well.

Glad you had an overall good experience Usef in your interviews.

Now back to more secondaries. And about miami's secondary, i'm just writing on that sucker.

good luck to the rest of ya's