A Culture of Lies (and an Open Letter to Adcoms)

[Spinach Dip]

---

Members don't see this ad.

The following story is true.

The female in the following story is an actual person I actually know. She is actually starting med school in the fall. She could actually be your doctor in 8-10 years....and you'd never know.
(Some minor details may have been altered to protect the ignorant)


***


So I'm sitting at my favorite subway enjoying a ham-on-wheat (extra mustard) when I am interrupted by a perky voice calling my name. "Spinach? How are you?"

"Oh, good."

She invites herself to sit across from me. We did some prereqs together, but I haven't seen her for a year or so. We're both applying to med school, so you know where the conversation goes first. Numbers. GPA. MCAT. sGPA. etc. We have similar LizzyM scores. ~75. She has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT.

Then comes the question nobody wants to ask or answer (sans those looking to gloat). "Have you got in?"

I wince. "Well, not yet. Ive got a few interviews, waitlists, y'know. Now I'm just waiting."

I know exactly what is coming next and she does not hesitate. "Well I got into 3 schools so far and I'm SO STRESSED trying to decide. I mean, school X is close to home, but school Y offered me a small scholarship, and school Z has the most amazing campus."

"Congrats on the first-world problems," I mutter behind my sandwich.

"What?"

"Oh. Nothing."

"So what about you?" She asks. "Why haven't you gotten in?"

"Oh, a combination of factors. My low-ish GPA. The fact that I changed my major several times. My lack of a commitment to the underserved throughout undergrad. I never went on a foreign mission trip...and, of course, one of my transcripts got lost in the mail so my AMCAS primary was officially complete something like 2 months after I submitted it..."

"Why didn't you go on any mission trips? They really impress med schools."

"Couldn't afford them. My parents could hardly afford rent and groceries when I started school. They're in better shape now, but still can't afford to give me a couple grand just so I can do something which 'might impress med schools'."

"Oh, well that's unfortunate," she says blandly, like someone who doesn't have any concept what she is talking about. "Say, don't you have a minor in writing?"

"Yes I do. We first met in that Book Editing class."

"Oh that's right!" She laughs. "Well, there's your answer."

"What answer?"

"You're a writer! So what you need to do is write a personal statement that convinces all the adcoms that they NEED to accept you!"

"And how do I do that?"

"Write about your trials and difficulties. Write about how being a doctor has ALWAYS been your dream. Make the adcoms believe that this is your destiny and that they would be making a horrible choice to turn you down! You like novels, so write your personal statement like it's the novel about your life."

"No one would want to read that novel," I mutter. "I haven't done anything novel-worthy."

"Adcoms want to read it! You just have to make it interesting."

"But... I haven't done ANYTHING worthy of a novel. Adcoms are reading thousands of these--how do I make mine stand out?"

"Well, if you haven't done anything interesting... MAKE IT UP."

"I... what?"

"That's what I did." She sort of shrugs and looks at the ceiling. Afraid to make eye contact? "Freshman year I went to Mexico for spring break. Got completely ****-faced drunk. Best spring break ever...I stayed with my aunt. She's a doctor down there. One day, I got to put on some scrubs and look around her clinic. I got this great picture, too." She pulls out her brand-new iPhone and swishes her finger across the screen until she comes across a picture of herself in plain blue scrubs. She has a net over her hair and a surgical mask pulled down to her chin so the camera could catch her wide smile. Behind her is an old wall-mounted blood pressure cuff. "I told the adcoms that I spent the week checking blood pressures and giving vitamins to homeless people. They loved it."

I can only stare. I wonder why she's telling me this. Is she bragging? Or does she have a guilty conscience and feel the need to confess?

She puts the iPhone away. "Same thing the next couple years. I went to Peru, and some hell-hole in Africa. Hated Africa. Got some good pictures at least... Adcoms loved every minute of it. Fourth year was a little different... my mom went to Rome and took me along. I told the Adcoms that I helped at some soup kitchens in Rome, but didn't have any pictures. They loved that, too."

"Haha." I laugh uncomfortably. "So, you straight-up lied to their faces?"

She shrugs. Again refuses to make eye contact. "I told them what they wanted to hear."

"But it was a lie."

"Everyone lies." She shrugs again. "That's how you get into med school."

"I didn't," I say, a little too harshly. "Not once. I didn't make up any experiences or exaggerate any of my volunteer hours."

She glares at me, now looking sour. "Well, maybe that's why you haven't been accepted yet!"

"Uhmmm...." I have no response.

She stands up. The sour look is gone in an instant. "Well, good luck Spinach. I hope you get in somewhere."



***


An open letter to Adcoms:

Men and women of the adcoms in this country, PLEASE take a step back for a moment and look at the culture you have created.

By expecting every single applicant to have volunteer, shadowing, leadership, research, and community service experiences, you have inadvertently created a filter which selects primarily for those premeds who either A) have done these things solely to check off boxes on their way to applying to medical school, or B) are willing to blatantly lie about their own experiences solely to impress you. Either way, the goal behind the creation of these requirements--selecting for students with a little bit of drive, humility, and compassion--has been lost to those who are willing and able to game the system.

Either way, by expecting pre-meds to be super-human, you have put at a disadvantage all those who ARE human and have a conscience.

I did not lie once on my application. I was as honest as I could be. Yet, my (potential) spot is being given to those who will straight up fabricate experiences because they think such things are what you WANT to hear. Think about that for a moment.

Further, by giving any advantage to those who have traveled the country/world to assist the less fortunate, you tilt the game in favor of those who were lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



So, what can be done? I'm not in your shoes, so I don't know everything that goes through your mind. I can make suggestions, but the decisions and implementation are not mine. The following list is me brainstorming over the internet.

1. Stop giving credence to anything which can be fabricated.

2. I understand the desire for physician shadowing/clinical volunteering, as all students starting medical school should have some concept of what they're getting into. But judging applicants on how many of these experiences they have/how many hours they have is flawed because someone can learn more shadowing in the ER for 50 hours than they can stocking shelves in the ED and fetching water for 500. Then again, someone might shadow in the ER for 500 hours and learn nothing if they are not engaged in what is happening.

3. Start giving more value to things like double majors, minors, and skills which cannot be fabricated (such as speaking other languages or the ability to play an instrument).

4. To summarize my ideas in a nutshell:

A. Start with LizzyM score (or whatever variant you prefer).

B. Add points for things which cannot be fabricated, like:
--speaking foreign languages
--playing instruments
--employment
--peer-reviewed research
--poster presentations
--double majors
--minors
--advanced degrees (MS, PhD, etc)

C. Add (far less) points for things which might be fabricated, or may have been done solely to impress you, like:
--mission trips
--community volunteering
--joining the university pre-med club (or being an officer thereof)
--physician shadowing
--hospital volunteering

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.




Anyway, a million thanks to those of you who read all of this, and I hope I have given you something to think about.

For those of you who are dizzy and need a tl,dr... Next time I'm sick, I don't want a doctor who got into med school on a lie. Get the liars and gamers out of this process.

Thanks for reading.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

hmmmm I was under the impression that your ideas are what they did?

Hang in there, I kind of know how you feel, it's rough right now.

 

[487806]

The following story is true.

The female in the following story is an actual person I actually know. She is actually starting med school in the fall. She could actually be your doctor in 8-10 years....and you'd never know.
(Some minor details may have been altered to protect the ignorant)


***


So I'm sitting at my favorite subway enjoying a ham-on-wheat (extra mustard) when I am interrupted by a perky voice calling my name. "Spinach? How are you?"

"Oh, good."

She invites herself to sit across from me. We did some prereqs together, but I haven't seen her for a year or so. We're both applying to med school, so you know where the conversation goes first. Numbers. GPA. MCAT. sGPA. etc. We have similar LizzyM scores. ~75. She has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT.

Then comes the question nobody wants to ask or answer (sans those looking to gloat). "Have you got in?"

I wince. "Well, not yet. Ive got a few interviews, waitlists, y'know. Now I'm just waiting."

I know exactly what is coming next and she does not hesitate. "Well I got into 3 schools so far and I'm SO STRESSED trying to decide. I mean, school X is close to home, but school Y offered me a small scholarship, and school Z has the most amazing campus."

"Congrats on the first-world problems," I mutter behind my sandwich.

"What?"

"Oh. Nothing."

"So what about you?" She asks. "Why haven't you gotten in?"

"Oh, a combination of factors. My low-ish GPA. The fact that I changed my major several times. My lack of a commitment to the underserved throughout undergrad. I never went on a foreign mission trip...and, of course, one of my transcripts got lost in the mail so my AMCAS primary was officially complete something like 2 months after I submitted it..."

"Why didn't you go on any mission trips? They really impress med schools."

"Couldn't afford them. My parents could hardly afford rent and groceries when I started school. They're in better shape now, but still can't afford to give me a couple grand just so I can do something which 'might impress med schools'."

"Oh, well that's unfortunate," she says blandly, like someone who doesn't have any concept what she is talking about. "Say, don't you have a minor in writing?"

"Yes I do. We first met in that Book Editing class."

"Oh that's right!" She laughs. "Well, there's your answer."

"What answer?"

"You're a writer! So what you need to do is write a personal statement that convinces all the adcoms that they NEED to accept you!"

"And how do I do that?"

"Write about your trials and difficulties. Write about how being a doctor has ALWAYS been your dream. Make the adcoms believe that this is your destiny and that they would be making a horrible choice to turn you down! You like novels, so write your personal statement like it's the novel about your life."

"No one would want to read that novel," I mutter. "I haven't done anything novel-worthy."

"Adcoms want to read it! You just have to make it interesting."

"But... I haven't done ANYTHING worthy of a novel. Adcoms are reading thousands of these--how do I make mine stand out?"

"Well, if you haven't done anything interesting... MAKE IT UP."

"I... what?"

"That's what I did." She sort of shrugs and looks at the ceiling. Afraid to make eye contact? "Freshman year I went to Mexico for spring break. Got completely ****-faced drunk. Best spring break ever...I stayed with my aunt. She's a doctor down there. One day, I got to put on some scrubs and look around her clinic. I got this great picture, too." She pulls out her brand-new iPhone and swishes her finger across the screen until she comes across a picture of herself in plain blue scrubs. She has a net over her hair and a surgical mask pulled down to her chin so the camera could catch her wide smile. Behind her is an old wall-mounted blood pressure cuff. "I told the adcoms that I spent the week checking blood pressures and giving vitamins to homeless people. They loved it."

I can only stare. I wonder why she's telling me this. Is she bragging? Or does she have a guilty conscience and feel the need to confess?

She puts the iPhone away. "Same thing the next couple years. I went to Peru, and some hell-hole in Africa. Hated Africa. Got some good pictures at least... Adcoms loved every minute of it. Fourth year was a little different... my mom went to Rome and took me along. I told the Adcoms that I helped at some soup kitchens in Rome, but didn't have any pictures. They loved that, too."

"Haha." I laugh uncomfortably. "So, you straight-up lied to their faces?"

She shrugs. Again refuses to make eye contact. "I told them what they wanted to hear."

"But it was a lie."

"Everyone lies." She shrugs again. "That's how you get into med school."

"I didn't," I say, a little too harshly. "Not once. I didn't make up any experiences or exaggerate any of my volunteer hours."

She glares at me, now looking sour. "Well, maybe that's why you haven't been accepted yet!"

"Uhmmm...." I have no response.

She stands up. The sour look is gone in an instant. "Well, good luck Spinach. I hope you get in somewhere."



***


An open letter to Adcoms:

Men and women of the adcoms in this country, PLEASE take a step back for a moment and look at the culture you have created.

By expecting every single applicant to have volunteer, shadowing, leadership, research, and community service experiences, you have inadvertently created a filter which selects primarily for those premeds who either A) have done these things solely to check off boxes on their way to applying to medical school, or B) are willing to blatantly lie about their own experiences solely to impress you. Either way, the goal behind the creation of these requirements--selecting for students with a little bit of drive, humility, and compassion--has been lost to those who are willing and able to game the system.

Either way, by expecting pre-meds to be super-human, you have put at a disadvantage all those who ARE human and have a conscience.

I did not lie once on my application. I was as honest as I could be. Yet, my (potential) spot is being given to those who will straight up fabricate experiences because they think such things are what you WANT to hear. Think about that for a moment.

Further, by giving any advantage to those who have traveled the country/world to assist the less fortunate, you tilt the game in favor of those who were lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



So, what can be done? I'm not in your shoes, so I don't know everything that goes through your mind. I can make suggestions, but the decisions and implementation are not mine. The following list is me brainstorming over the internet.

1. Stop giving credence to anything which can be fabricated.

2. I understand the desire for physician shadowing/clinical volunteering, as all students starting medical school should have some concept of what they're getting into. But judging applicants on how many of these experiences they have/how many hours they have is flawed because someone can learn more shadowing in the ER for 50 hours than they can stocking shelves in the ED and fetching water for 500. Then again, someone might shadow in the ER for 500 hours and learn nothing if they are not engaged in what is happening.

3. Start giving more value to things like double majors, minors, and skills which cannot be fabricated (such as speaking other languages or the ability to play an instrument).

4. To summarize my ideas in a nutshell:

A. Start with LizzyM score (or whatever variant you prefer).

B. Add points for things which cannot be fabricated, like:
--speaking foreign languages
--playing instruments
--employment
--peer-reviewed research
--poster presentations
--double majors
--minors
--advanced degrees (MS, PhD, etc)

C. Add (far less) points for things which might be fabricated, or may have been done solely to impress you, like:
--mission trips
--community volunteering
--joining the university pre-med club (or being an officer thereof)
--physician shadowing
--hospital volunteering

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.




Anyway, a million thanks to those of you who read all of this, and I hope I have given you something to think about.

For those of you who are dizzy and need a tl,dr... Next time I'm sick, I don't want a doctor who got into med school on a lie. Get the liars and gamers out of this process.

Thanks for reading.

That is perhaps one of the largest walls of text I have seen on SDN. But it's useful. Although I have to point out that double majors, minors and advanced degrees shouldn't be weighted heavily (if anything they should have zero bearing).

 

[WillburCobb]

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I think that person took a BIG risk. However, admission to med school is too subjective IMO... Just make it an high school level MCAT race like other countries do. NO undergrad...Forget about GPAs, ECs and LORs. Med school should be 6 year post high school graduation with basic science included.

 

[Chipster.]

The following story is true.

The female in the following story is an actual person I actually know. She is actually starting med school in the fall. She could actually be your doctor in 8-10 years....and you'd never know.
(Some minor details may have been altered to protect the ignorant)


***


So I'm sitting at my favorite subway enjoying a ham-on-wheat (extra mustard) when I am interrupted by a perky voice calling my name. "Spinach? How are you?"

"Oh, good."

She invites herself to sit across from me. We did some prereqs together, but I haven't seen her for a year or so. We're both applying to med school, so you know where the conversation goes first. Numbers. GPA. MCAT. sGPA. etc. We have similar LizzyM scores. ~75. She has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT.

Then comes the question nobody wants to ask or answer (sans those looking to gloat). "Have you got in?"

I wince. "Well, not yet. Ive got a few interviews, waitlists, y'know. Now I'm just waiting."

I know exactly what is coming next and she does not hesitate. "Well I got into 3 schools so far and I'm SO STRESSED trying to decide. I mean, school X is close to home, but school Y offered me a small scholarship, and school Z has the most amazing campus."

"Congrats on the first-world problems," I mutter behind my sandwich.

"What?"

"Oh. Nothing."

"So what about you?" She asks. "Why haven't you gotten in?"

"Oh, a combination of factors. My low-ish GPA. The fact that I changed my major several times. My lack of a commitment to the underserved throughout undergrad. I never went on a foreign mission trip...and, of course, one of my transcripts got lost in the mail so my AMCAS primary was officially complete something like 2 months after I submitted it..."

"Why didn't you go on any mission trips? They really impress med schools."

"Couldn't afford them. My parents could hardly afford rent and groceries when I started school. They're in better shape now, but still can't afford to give me a couple grand just so I can do something which 'might impress med schools'."

"Oh, well that's unfortunate," she says blandly, like someone who doesn't have any concept what she is talking about. "Say, don't you have a minor in writing?"

"Yes I do. We first met in that Book Editing class."

"Oh that's right!" She laughs. "Well, there's your answer."

"What answer?"

"You're a writer! So what you need to do is write a personal statement that convinces all the adcoms that they NEED to accept you!"

"And how do I do that?"

"Write about your trials and difficulties. Write about how being a doctor has ALWAYS been your dream. Make the adcoms believe that this is your destiny and that they would be making a horrible choice to turn you down! You like novels, so write your personal statement like it's the novel about your life."

"No one would want to read that novel," I mutter. "I haven't done anything novel-worthy."

"Adcoms want to read it! You just have to make it interesting."

"But... I haven't done ANYTHING worthy of a novel. Adcoms are reading thousands of these--how do I make mine stand out?"

"Well, if you haven't done anything interesting... MAKE IT UP."

"I... what?"

"That's what I did." She sort of shrugs and looks at the ceiling. Afraid to make eye contact? "Freshman year I went to Mexico for spring break. Got completely ****-faced drunk. Best spring break ever...I stayed with my aunt. She's a doctor down there. One day, I got to put on some scrubs and look around her clinic. I got this great picture, too." She pulls out her brand-new iPhone and swishes her finger across the screen until she comes across a picture of herself in plain blue scrubs. She has a net over her hair and a surgical mask pulled down to her chin so the camera could catch her wide smile. Behind her is an old wall-mounted blood pressure cuff. "I told the adcoms that I spent the week checking blood pressures and giving vitamins to homeless people. They loved it."

I can only stare. I wonder why she's telling me this. Is she bragging? Or does she have a guilty conscience and feel the need to confess?

She puts the iPhone away. "Same thing the next couple years. I went to Peru, and some hell-hole in Africa. Hated Africa. Got some good pictures at least... Adcoms loved every minute of it. Fourth year was a little different... my mom went to Rome and took me along. I told the Adcoms that I helped at some soup kitchens in Rome, but didn't have any pictures. They loved that, too."

"Haha." I laugh uncomfortably. "So, you straight-up lied to their faces?"

She shrugs. Again refuses to make eye contact. "I told them what they wanted to hear."

"But it was a lie."

"Everyone lies." She shrugs again. "That's how you get into med school."

"I didn't," I say, a little too harshly. "Not once. I didn't make up any experiences or exaggerate any of my volunteer hours."

She glares at me, now looking sour. "Well, maybe that's why you haven't been accepted yet!"

"Uhmmm...." I have no response.

She stands up. The sour look is gone in an instant. "Well, good luck Spinach. I hope you get in somewhere."



***


An open letter to Adcoms:

Men and women of the adcoms in this country, PLEASE take a step back for a moment and look at the culture you have created.

By expecting every single applicant to have volunteer, shadowing, leadership, research, and community service experiences, you have inadvertently created a filter which selects primarily for those premeds who either A) have done these things solely to check off boxes on their way to applying to medical school, or B) are willing to blatantly lie about their own experiences solely to impress you. Either way, the goal behind the creation of these requirements--selecting for students with a little bit of drive, humility, and compassion--has been lost to those who are willing and able to game the system.

Either way, by expecting pre-meds to be super-human, you have put at a disadvantage all those who ARE human and have a conscience.

I did not lie once on my application. I was as honest as I could be. Yet, my (potential) spot is being given to those who will straight up fabricate experiences because they think such things are what you WANT to hear. Think about that for a moment.

Further, by giving any advantage to those who have traveled the country/world to assist the less fortunate, you tilt the game in favor of those who were lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



So, what can be done? I'm not in your shoes, so I don't know everything that goes through your mind. I can make suggestions, but the decisions and implementation are not mine. The following list is me brainstorming over the internet.

1. Stop giving credence to anything which can be fabricated.

2. I understand the desire for physician shadowing/clinical volunteering, as all students starting medical school should have some concept of what they're getting into. But judging applicants on how many of these experiences they have/how many hours they have is flawed because someone can learn more shadowing in the ER for 50 hours than they can stocking shelves in the ED and fetching water for 500. Then again, someone might shadow in the ER for 500 hours and learn nothing if they are not engaged in what is happening.

3. Start giving more value to things like double majors, minors, and skills which cannot be fabricated (such as speaking other languages or the ability to play an instrument).

4. To summarize my ideas in a nutshell:

A. Start with LizzyM score (or whatever variant you prefer).

B. Add points for things which cannot be fabricated, like:
--speaking foreign languages
--playing instruments
--employment
--peer-reviewed research
--poster presentations
--double majors
--minors
--advanced degrees (MS, PhD, etc)

C. Add (far less) points for things which might be fabricated, or may have been done solely to impress you, like:
--mission trips
--community volunteering
--joining the university pre-med club (or being an officer thereof)
--physician shadowing
--hospital volunteering

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.




Anyway, a million thanks to those of you who read all of this, and I hope I have given you something to think about.

For those of you who are dizzy and need a tl,dr... Next time I'm sick, I don't want a doctor who got into med school on a lie. Get the liars and gamers out of this process.

Thanks for reading.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

If we're offering things to gripe about, I feel the interviews could be more standardized and I know there's some people who love and some people who hate mmi's, traditional style, etc. But I do feel the interviewer has an absurdly large amount of power to the effect that they can make or break you based on unrelated factors such as their mood that day, etc.

I do feel grades from 10+ etc years ago should not factor into it at all, but I may be biased in these remarks 😛

 

[sourdoughllama]

The following story is true.

The female in the following story is an actual person I actually know. She is actually starting med school in the fall. She could actually be your doctor in 8-10 years....and you'd never know.
(Some minor details may have been altered to protect the ignorant)


***


So I'm sitting at my favorite subway enjoying a ham-on-wheat (extra mustard) when I am interrupted by a perky voice calling my name. "Spinach? How are you?"

"Oh, good."

She invites herself to sit across from me. We did some prereqs together, but I haven't seen her for a year or so. We're both applying to med school, so you know where the conversation goes first. Numbers. GPA. MCAT. sGPA. etc. We have similar LizzyM scores. ~75. She has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT.

Then comes the question nobody wants to ask or answer (sans those looking to gloat). "Have you got in?"

I wince. "Well, not yet. Ive got a few interviews, waitlists, y'know. Now I'm just waiting."

I know exactly what is coming next and she does not hesitate. "Well I got into 3 schools so far and I'm SO STRESSED trying to decide. I mean, school X is close to home, but school Y offered me a small scholarship, and school Z has the most amazing campus."

"Congrats on the first-world problems," I mutter behind my sandwich.

"What?"

"Oh. Nothing."

"So what about you?" She asks. "Why haven't you gotten in?"

"Oh, a combination of factors. My low-ish GPA. The fact that I changed my major several times. My lack of a commitment to the underserved throughout undergrad. I never went on a foreign mission trip...and, of course, one of my transcripts got lost in the mail so my AMCAS primary was officially complete something like 2 months after I submitted it..."

"Why didn't you go on any mission trips? They really impress med schools."

"Couldn't afford them. My parents could hardly afford rent and groceries when I started school. They're in better shape now, but still can't afford to give me a couple grand just so I can do something which 'might impress med schools'."

"Oh, well that's unfortunate," she says blandly, like someone who doesn't have any concept what she is talking about. "Say, don't you have a minor in writing?"

"Yes I do. We first met in that Book Editing class."

"Oh that's right!" She laughs. "Well, there's your answer."

"What answer?"

"You're a writer! So what you need to do is write a personal statement that convinces all the adcoms that they NEED to accept you!"

"And how do I do that?"

"Write about your trials and difficulties. Write about how being a doctor has ALWAYS been your dream. Make the adcoms believe that this is your destiny and that they would be making a horrible choice to turn you down! You like novels, so write your personal statement like it's the novel about your life."

"No one would want to read that novel," I mutter. "I haven't done anything novel-worthy."

"Adcoms want to read it! You just have to make it interesting."

"But... I haven't done ANYTHING worthy of a novel. Adcoms are reading thousands of these--how do I make mine stand out?"

"Well, if you haven't done anything interesting... MAKE IT UP."

"I... what?"

"That's what I did." She sort of shrugs and looks at the ceiling. Afraid to make eye contact? "Freshman year I went to Mexico for spring break. Got completely ****-faced drunk. Best spring break ever...I stayed with my aunt. She's a doctor down there. One day, I got to put on some scrubs and look around her clinic. I got this great picture, too." She pulls out her brand-new iPhone and swishes her finger across the screen until she comes across a picture of herself in plain blue scrubs. She has a net over her hair and a surgical mask pulled down to her chin so the camera could catch her wide smile. Behind her is an old wall-mounted blood pressure cuff. "I told the adcoms that I spent the week checking blood pressures and giving vitamins to homeless people. They loved it."

I can only stare. I wonder why she's telling me this. Is she bragging? Or does she have a guilty conscience and feel the need to confess?

She puts the iPhone away. "Same thing the next couple years. I went to Peru, and some hell-hole in Africa. Hated Africa. Got some good pictures at least... Adcoms loved every minute of it. Fourth year was a little different... my mom went to Rome and took me along. I told the Adcoms that I helped at some soup kitchens in Rome, but didn't have any pictures. They loved that, too."

"Haha." I laugh uncomfortably. "So, you straight-up lied to their faces?"

She shrugs. Again refuses to make eye contact. "I told them what they wanted to hear."

"But it was a lie."

"Everyone lies." She shrugs again. "That's how you get into med school."

"I didn't," I say, a little too harshly. "Not once. I didn't make up any experiences or exaggerate any of my volunteer hours."

She glares at me, now looking sour. "Well, maybe that's why you haven't been accepted yet!"

"Uhmmm...." I have no response.

She stands up. The sour look is gone in an instant. "Well, good luck Spinach. I hope you get in somewhere."



***


An open letter to Adcoms:

Men and women of the adcoms in this country, PLEASE take a step back for a moment and look at the culture you have created.

By expecting every single applicant to have volunteer, shadowing, leadership, research, and community service experiences, you have inadvertently created a filter which selects primarily for those premeds who either A) have done these things solely to check off boxes on their way to applying to medical school, or B) are willing to blatantly lie about their own experiences solely to impress you. Either way, the goal behind the creation of these requirements--selecting for students with a little bit of drive, humility, and compassion--has been lost to those who are willing and able to game the system.

Either way, by expecting pre-meds to be super-human, you have put at a disadvantage all those who ARE human and have a conscience.

I did not lie once on my application. I was as honest as I could be. Yet, my (potential) spot is being given to those who will straight up fabricate experiences because they think such things are what you WANT to hear. Think about that for a moment.

Further, by giving any advantage to those who have traveled the country/world to assist the less fortunate, you tilt the game in favor of those who were lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



So, what can be done? I'm not in your shoes, so I don't know everything that goes through your mind. I can make suggestions, but the decisions and implementation are not mine. The following list is me brainstorming over the internet.

1. Stop giving credence to anything which can be fabricated.

2. I understand the desire for physician shadowing/clinical volunteering, as all students starting medical school should have some concept of what they're getting into. But judging applicants on how many of these experiences they have/how many hours they have is flawed because someone can learn more shadowing in the ER for 50 hours than they can stocking shelves in the ED and fetching water for 500. Then again, someone might shadow in the ER for 500 hours and learn nothing if they are not engaged in what is happening.

3. Start giving more value to things like double majors, minors, and skills which cannot be fabricated (such as speaking other languages or the ability to play an instrument).

4. To summarize my ideas in a nutshell:

A. Start with LizzyM score (or whatever variant you prefer).

B. Add points for things which cannot be fabricated, like:
--speaking foreign languages
--playing instruments
--employment
--peer-reviewed research
--poster presentations
--double majors
--minors
--advanced degrees (MS, PhD, etc)

C. Add (far less) points for things which might be fabricated, or may have been done solely to impress you, like:
--mission trips
--community volunteering
--joining the university pre-med club (or being an officer thereof)
--physician shadowing
--hospital volunteering

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.




Anyway, a million thanks to those of you who read all of this, and I hope I have given you something to think about.

For those of you who are dizzy and need a tl,dr... Next time I'm sick, I don't want a doctor who got into med school on a lie. Get the liars and gamers out of this process.

Thanks for reading.

1- more people than not have been generous with descriptions of their own activities and accomplishments (in every field/job), I'm not sure why her story was so shocking

2- your second tier of things you consider important is still easy to fabricate (get published when you did no work, how do you test fluency in language on the application?)

 

[Lucca]

The following story is true.



You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



Thanks for reading.

I've edited the wall of text down for you. While I appreciate the sentiment expressed in this letter and I think that the subsequent discussion is a really important one, I have to say that the wealthy and dishonest advantage is basically everywhere, especially in free-market systems.

But yes, the more transparency that better. More, more, more transparency.

 

[loltopsy]

The following story is true.

The female in the following story is an actual person I actually know. She is actually starting med school in the fall. She could actually be your doctor in 8-10 years....and you'd never know.
(Some minor details may have been altered to protect the ignorant)


***


So I'm sitting at my favorite subway enjoying a ham-on-wheat (extra mustard) when I am interrupted by a perky voice calling my name. "Spinach? How are you?"

"Oh, good."

She invites herself to sit across from me. We did some prereqs together, but I haven't seen her for a year or so. We're both applying to med school, so you know where the conversation goes first. Numbers. GPA. MCAT. sGPA. etc. We have similar LizzyM scores. ~75. She has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT.

Then comes the question nobody wants to ask or answer (sans those looking to gloat). "Have you got in?"

I wince. "Well, not yet. Ive got a few interviews, waitlists, y'know. Now I'm just waiting."

I know exactly what is coming next and she does not hesitate. "Well I got into 3 schools so far and I'm SO STRESSED trying to decide. I mean, school X is close to home, but school Y offered me a small scholarship, and school Z has the most amazing campus."

"Congrats on the first-world problems," I mutter behind my sandwich.

"What?"

"Oh. Nothing."

"So what about you?" She asks. "Why haven't you gotten in?"

"Oh, a combination of factors. My low-ish GPA. The fact that I changed my major several times. My lack of a commitment to the underserved throughout undergrad. I never went on a foreign mission trip...and, of course, one of my transcripts got lost in the mail so my AMCAS primary was officially complete something like 2 months after I submitted it..."

"Why didn't you go on any mission trips? They really impress med schools."

"Couldn't afford them. My parents could hardly afford rent and groceries when I started school. They're in better shape now, but still can't afford to give me a couple grand just so I can do something which 'might impress med schools'."

"Oh, well that's unfortunate," she says blandly, like someone who doesn't have any concept what she is talking about. "Say, don't you have a minor in writing?"

"Yes I do. We first met in that Book Editing class."

"Oh that's right!" She laughs. "Well, there's your answer."

"What answer?"

"You're a writer! So what you need to do is write a personal statement that convinces all the adcoms that they NEED to accept you!"

"And how do I do that?"

"Write about your trials and difficulties. Write about how being a doctor has ALWAYS been your dream. Make the adcoms believe that this is your destiny and that they would be making a horrible choice to turn you down! You like novels, so write your personal statement like it's the novel about your life."

"No one would want to read that novel," I mutter. "I haven't done anything novel-worthy."

"Adcoms want to read it! You just have to make it interesting."

"But... I haven't done ANYTHING worthy of a novel. Adcoms are reading thousands of these--how do I make mine stand out?"

"Well, if you haven't done anything interesting... MAKE IT UP."

"I... what?"

"That's what I did." She sort of shrugs and looks at the ceiling. Afraid to make eye contact? "Freshman year I went to Mexico for spring break. Got completely ****-faced drunk. Best spring break ever...I stayed with my aunt. She's a doctor down there. One day, I got to put on some scrubs and look around her clinic. I got this great picture, too." She pulls out her brand-new iPhone and swishes her finger across the screen until she comes across a picture of herself in plain blue scrubs. She has a net over her hair and a surgical mask pulled down to her chin so the camera could catch her wide smile. Behind her is an old wall-mounted blood pressure cuff. "I told the adcoms that I spent the week checking blood pressures and giving vitamins to homeless people. They loved it."

I can only stare. I wonder why she's telling me this. Is she bragging? Or does she have a guilty conscience and feel the need to confess?

She puts the iPhone away. "Same thing the next couple years. I went to Peru, and some hell-hole in Africa. Hated Africa. Got some good pictures at least... Adcoms loved every minute of it. Fourth year was a little different... my mom went to Rome and took me along. I told the Adcoms that I helped at some soup kitchens in Rome, but didn't have any pictures. They loved that, too."

"Haha." I laugh uncomfortably. "So, you straight-up lied to their faces?"

She shrugs. Again refuses to make eye contact. "I told them what they wanted to hear."

"But it was a lie."

"Everyone lies." She shrugs again. "That's how you get into med school."

"I didn't," I say, a little too harshly. "Not once. I didn't make up any experiences or exaggerate any of my volunteer hours."

She glares at me, now looking sour. "Well, maybe that's why you haven't been accepted yet!"

"Uhmmm...." I have no response.

She stands up. The sour look is gone in an instant. "Well, good luck Spinach. I hope you get in somewhere."



***


An open letter to Adcoms:

Men and women of the adcoms in this country, PLEASE take a step back for a moment and look at the culture you have created.

By expecting every single applicant to have volunteer, shadowing, leadership, research, and community service experiences, you have inadvertently created a filter which selects primarily for those premeds who either A) have done these things solely to check off boxes on their way to applying to medical school, or B) are willing to blatantly lie about their own experiences solely to impress you. Either way, the goal behind the creation of these requirements--selecting for students with a little bit of drive, humility, and compassion--has been lost to those who are willing and able to game the system.

Either way, by expecting pre-meds to be super-human, you have put at a disadvantage all those who ARE human and have a conscience.

I did not lie once on my application. I was as honest as I could be. Yet, my (potential) spot is being given to those who will straight up fabricate experiences because they think such things are what you WANT to hear. Think about that for a moment.

Further, by giving any advantage to those who have traveled the country/world to assist the less fortunate, you tilt the game in favor of those who were lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



So, what can be done? I'm not in your shoes, so I don't know everything that goes through your mind. I can make suggestions, but the decisions and implementation are not mine. The following list is me brainstorming over the internet.

1. Stop giving credence to anything which can be fabricated.

2. I understand the desire for physician shadowing/clinical volunteering, as all students starting medical school should have some concept of what they're getting into. But judging applicants on how many of these experiences they have/how many hours they have is flawed because someone can learn more shadowing in the ER for 50 hours than they can stocking shelves in the ED and fetching water for 500. Then again, someone might shadow in the ER for 500 hours and learn nothing if they are not engaged in what is happening.

3. Start giving more value to things like double majors, minors, and skills which cannot be fabricated (such as speaking other languages or the ability to play an instrument).

4. To summarize my ideas in a nutshell:

A. Start with LizzyM score (or whatever variant you prefer).

B. Add points for things which cannot be fabricated, like:
--speaking foreign languages
--playing instruments
--employment
--peer-reviewed research
--poster presentations
--double majors
--minors
--advanced degrees (MS, PhD, etc)

C. Add (far less) points for things which might be fabricated, or may have been done solely to impress you, like:
--mission trips
--community volunteering
--joining the university pre-med club (or being an officer thereof)
--physician shadowing
--hospital volunteering

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.




Anyway, a million thanks to those of you who read all of this, and I hope I have given you something to think about.

For those of you who are dizzy and need a tl,dr... Next time I'm sick, I don't want a doctor who got into med school on a lie. Get the liars and gamers out of this process.

Thanks for reading.

 

[gookies]

1- more people than not have been generous with descriptions of their own activities and accomplishments (in every field/job), I'm not sure why her story was so shocking

2- your second tier of things you consider important is still easy to fabricate (get published when you did no work, how do you test fluency in language on the application?)

Getting published without doing any work is easy to fabricate? Please enlighten me on this matter and tell me why aren't all the individuals on SDN published yet. The stuff he listed is pretty hard to fabricate compared to stuff like volunteering hours, clubs, etc. I can understand where he's coming from, but that's life for ya. Pretty sure tons of applicants lie about wanting to do FM, because every medical school pushes for that, yet they know they absolutely want to specialize due to the salary. I agree with some of what Spinach has to say, but disagree with others.

Especially the points about what shouldn't have any bearing. First, the majors. As you compared it, french lit to cell bio, no difference. Obviously there is a difference in how difficult the courses are. Even though this can't be done, I do not see a 4.0 GPA in a major such as Education equivalent to a 4.0 GPA in Biology. There are obviously easy majors and difficult majors, so it should have some sort of bearing. I could've majored in Education, already knowing I wanted to go to medical school, but wanted to maintain a 4.0 uGPA and achieve a 4.0 sGPA by just taking basic science courses. As for the interview attire, that applies to EVERY interview you go to. You want to look presentable. That should't even be a problem to achieve.

 

[Lucca]

Getting published without doing any work is easy to fabricate? Please enlighten me on this matter and tell me why aren't all the individuals on SDN published yet. The stuff he listed is pretty hard to fabricate compared to stuff like volunteering hours, clubs, etc. I can understand where he's coming from, but that's life for ya. Pretty sure tons of applicants lie about wanting to do FM, because every medical school pushes for that, yet they know they absolutely want to specialize due to the salary. I agree with some of what Spinach has to say, but disagree with others.

Especially the points about what shouldn't have any bearing. First, the majors. As you compared it, french lit to cell bio, no difference. Obviously there is a difference in how difficult the courses are. Even though this can't be done, I do not see a 4.0 GPA in a major such as Education equivalent to a 4.0 GPA in Biology. There are obviously easy majors and difficult majors, so it should have some sort of bearing. I could've majored in Education, already knowing I wanted to go to medical school, but wanted to maintain a 4.0 uGPA and achieve a 4.0 sGPA by just taking basic science courses. As for the interview attire, that applies to EVERY interview you go to. You want to look presentable. That should't even be a problem to achieve.

The thing about majors is that it creates a whole different type of gaming system. In this system engineers would always have the upper-hand in admissions and it would glut certain departments with pre-meds when those departments cater to different audiences; professional programs such as engineering are especially insulated since they are generally smaller and dedicated to producing engineering researchers and industry professionals, not medical doctors. The freedom to choose one's major prevents departments like Engineering and Physics from being glutted or "gamed" and allows pre-meds to pursue other interests aside from medicine before entirely devoting their lives to it. After all, that's the point of having undergrad before medical school. The alternative would be a lengthened medical school program out of high school, which exists in the US in the form of BS/MD plans and FlexMed (sort of) and more explicitly in the rest of the world. That being said, I definitely think BS/MD and straight-outta-high-school path ways should be expanded in the US since the broader and arguably more cumbersome undergraduate + graduate pathway isn't for everyone. Personally, I much prefer the undergrad pathway since I have a lot of interests I want to pursue before committing my life to study medicine full-time but that's not to say that's the best way for everyone to do things. After all, look at the rest of the world. Their doctors seem to do just fine, although if you start failing halfway through a medical program in foreign countries you just have to start over whereas US med students hardly ever fail out.

 

[gookies]

The thing about majors is that it creates a whole different type of gaming system. In this system engineers would always have the upper-hand in admissions and it would glut certain departments with pre-meds when those departments cater to different audiences; professional programs such as engineering are especially insulated since they are generally smaller and dedicated to producing engineering researchers and industry professionals, not medical doctors. The freedom to choose one's major prevents departments like Engineering and Physics from being glutted or "gamed" and allows pre-meds to pursue other interests aside from medicine before entirely devoting their lives to it. After all, that's the point of having undergrad before medical school. The alternative would be a lengthened medical school program out of high school, which exists in the US in the form of BS/MD plans and FlexMed (sort of) and more explicitly in the rest of the world. That being said, I definitely think BS/MD and straight-outta-high-school path ways should be expanded in the US since the broader and arguably more cumbersome undergraduate + graduate pathway isn't for everyone. Personally, I much prefer the undergrad pathway since I have a lot of interests I want to pursue before committing my life to study medicine full-time but that's not to say that's the best way for everyone to do things. After all, look at the rest of the world. Their doctors seem to do just fine, although if you start failing halfway through a medical program in foreign countries you just have to start over whereas US med students hardly ever fail out.

Well, the majority of pre-med students choose human biology as their major anyways, because they somehow think that's the best major to do when pursuing medical school. I'm doubting most of them choose it because they like it. I would think of it as playing it safe. I would have loved it if medical school started right from high school. Although I did find interest in my major courses, there were also courses I found totally useless.

 

[seeinghowitgoes]

Definitely appreciate the sentiment, and I would love more transparency.

That being said, the outcome of interest is quality physicians produced. OP said it best himself - this girl may be your doctor and you wouldn't even know. Aka when she's all done, she'll most likely be a competent, capable doctor.

Med school admissions aren't fair, but what is? Unfairness isn't limited to medicine - it's rife in applying for management consulting, investment banking, a host of other sectors, etc. At times you have to play the game to win (aka wear professional attire, I'm not talking about blatantly lying). As long as med schools continue to produce capable doctors, most of the points raised seem to be secondary.

Now, I do think where social inequality keeps people from checking all the boxes there should be a mechanism to ensure greater diversity in medicine, but that's, IMO, a whole different issue for the most part.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Now, I do think where social inequality keeps people from checking all the boxes there should be a mechanism to ensure greater diversity in medicine, but that's, IMO, a whole different issue for the most part.

I see what you did there

 

[SunsFun]

Well, the majority of pre-med students choose human biology as their major anyways, because they somehow think that's the best major to do when pursuing medical school. I'm doubting most of them choose it because they like it. I would think of it as playing it safe. I would have loved it if medical school started right from high school. Although I did find interest in my major courses, there were also courses I found totally useless.

Many pick biology because it includes all or almost all of the prerequisite courses needed for med school.

Going to med school from high school would be a terrible idea in this country. Our primary and secondary education system is terrible at leveling the playing field and kids at crappy schools would never get a shot to be doctors if they hadn't gone to college. Not to say college makes it a lot better but it's at least some kind of buffer.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

I agree that the wealthy have an advantage in the process - the median family income for matriculating students is something like 115k - but as others have pointed out that's true with everything in life.

In general, none of the points you've listed is unique to the medical school application process. People lie on their resumes like there's no tomorrow. It's one of the reasons interviews have gotten so technical and long. I have classmates and family members going to 4-5 hour engineering interviews! All technical! They were asked to take a test and solve circuits on a white board. There's just not much you can do about it. The problem is there's no real way to screen for altruism.

I don't think minors should be included. Minors are like...9 quarter classes where I go to school.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Many pick biology because it includes all or almost all of the prerequisite courses needed for med school.

Going to med school from high school would be a terrible idea in this country. Our primary and secondary education system is terrible at leveling the playing field and kids at crappy schools would never get a shot to be doctors if they hadn't gone to college. Not to say college makes it a lot better but it's at least some kind of buffer.

I agree. This method works in Europe but definitely does NOT work here. Hell, unless you have the money to pay for AP classes you won't even be exposed to biology at my high school and I went to a top 50 public high school. You would just end up having more parents force their kids into medicine/force them to learn instruments and languages. Also, student loans. The last thing you need is people dropping out or being forced to stay in a field they hate because of hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans - something Europeans don't have to deal with.

 

[gookies]

Many pick biology because it includes all or almost all of the prerequisite courses needed for med school.

Going to med school from high school would be a terrible idea in this country. Our primary and secondary education system is terrible at leveling the playing field and kids at crappy schools would never get a shot to be doctors if they hadn't gone to college. Not to say college makes it a lot better but it's at least some kind of buffer.

There are other majors that encompasses the sameye requirements. My point was that individuals pursuing medical school don't choose a major, like human biology because they find it "interesting", they do it because of what you stated. Also, I would think it might even be somewhat easier to have a shot. There will always be programs for the individuals at the "crappy" schools that helps them out in some way. It also seems like it might be based strictly on stats also. I know they take an admissions test to get in, but not sure what other factors there are.

 

[SunsFun]

There are other majors that encompasses the sameye requirements. My point was that individuals pursuing medical school don't choose a major, like human biology because they find it "interesting", they do it because of what you stated. Also, I would think it might even be somewhat easier to have a shot. There will always be programs for the individuals at the "crappy" schools that helps them out in some way. It also seems like it might be based strictly on stats also. I know they take an admissions test to get in, but not sure what other factors there are.

Do you get that kids at many districts come out lacking basic math and science skills completely? There is no intervention you can do without revamping the whole system. Taking kids out of high school in our current system is one of the least fair and meritocratic things you can do.

 

[Burla]

If we want to annoy ADCOMS we can send in mini LORs from a supervisor from our major ECs and signatures from doctors from shadowing

 

[kittykattat]

I agree. This method works in Europe but definitely does NOT work here. Hell, unless you have the money to pay for AP classes you won't even be exposed to biology at my high school and I went to a top 50 public high school. You would just end up having more parents force their kids into medicine/force them to learn instruments and languages. Also, student loans. The last thing you need is people dropping out or being forced to stay in a field they hate because of hundreds of thousands of dollars in loans - something Europeans don't have to deal with.

Wait how is your HS ranked so high if they dont even offer a general biology class (and I say "offer" hesitantly because all of the public high schools in my state REQUIRE it)? And they CHARGE you to take AP classes? I didnt know public schools could charge money to take courses... what kind of a crazy school is this?! haha

 

[DokterMom]

Do you get that kids at many districts come out lacking basic math and science skills completely? There is no intervention you can do without revamping the whole system. Taking kids out of high school in our current system is one of the least fair and meritocratic things you can do.

There are also MANY students who are plenty bright enough but simply not mature enough in high school to gain admission to a BS/MD program. And really, it would just be pushing The Game (same game) down a few more years and still not address the underlying unfairness of the system.

If it's any consolation to you Spinach, rest assured that the ADCOMS saw through her 'mission trips' and recognized them for the 'box-checking vacations' they were.

 

[masaraksh]

That is perhaps one of the largest walls of text I have seen on SDN. But it's useful. Although I have to point out that double majors, minors and advanced degrees shouldn't be weighted heavily (if anything they should have zero bearing).

Seriously? That is completely ridiculous!

I think double majors, minors, adv. degrees definitely should have a positive influence. (for the record, I don't have any advanced degrees). These things show a lot more work and accomplishment. Strange why you think that shouldn't have any weight.

 

[masaraksh]

OP,

It could be worse. For example, Russia. There, you can be a complete saint-genius and not get in anywhere whereas all the people getting in/getting jobs had their daddy send a note and an envelope with some cash (and its like that for all sectors)

 

[TexasSurgeon]

I think that person took a BIG risk. However, admission to med school is too subjective IMO... Just make it an high school level MCAT race like other countries do. NO undergrad...Forget about GPAs, ECs and LORs. Med school should be 6 year post high school graduation with basic science included.

You have no concept of a liberal education.

The goal is not to become a doctor, but to become a well rounded/educated citizen AND a doctor

"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country"

 

[sourdoughllama]

Getting published without doing any work is easy to fabricate? Please enlighten me on this matter and tell me why aren't all the individuals on SDN published yet. The stuff he listed is pretty hard to fabricate compared to stuff like volunteering hours, clubs, etc. I can understand where he's coming from, but that's life for ya. Pretty sure tons of applicants lie about wanting to do FM, because every medical school pushes for that, yet they know they absolutely want to specialize due to the salary. I agree with some of what Spinach has to say, but disagree with others.

You're being naive if you think being published always means you did the work. I know plenty of people first hand who waltz into a lab, run a couple of PCRs, or do a few days of bitch work and end up published (not first author obviously) because of connections. You think volunteer hours and clubs are hard to fabricate?? Dude that is like high school --> college apps 101. People lie out their asses about stuff like that. Don't you think for a second that you're on a level playing field with people by being 100% honest.

 

[MDforMee]

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.

Way to ruin an otherwise decent post. Congratulations, your writing now seems a bit aggrandized, and like you're bitter about not getting in because your app is lacking in some non-humanitarian relief area (academics, where you went to school, etc).

 

[BestDoctorEver]

You have no concept of a liberal education.

The goal is not to become a doctor, but to become a well rounded/educated citizen AND a doctor

"Ask not what your country can do for you. Ask what you can do for your country"

Lol... Are you freaking serious? Oh yeah... We allow FMG to become physician in this country... I guess they are NOT well rounded educated citizen/doctor. Seriously!

 

[Chipster.]

The following story is true.

The female in the following story is an actual person I actually know. She is actually starting med school in the fall. She could actually be your doctor in 8-10 years....and you'd never know.
(Some minor details may have been altered to protect the ignorant)


***


So I'm sitting at my favorite subway enjoying a ham-on-wheat (extra mustard) when I am interrupted by a perky voice calling my name. "Spinach? How are you?"

"Oh, good."

She invites herself to sit across from me. We did some prereqs together, but I haven't seen her for a year or so. We're both applying to med school, so you know where the conversation goes first. Numbers. GPA. MCAT. sGPA. etc. We have similar LizzyM scores. ~75. She has a higher GPA, I have a higher MCAT.

Then comes the question nobody wants to ask or answer (sans those looking to gloat). "Have you got in?"

I wince. "Well, not yet. Ive got a few interviews, waitlists, y'know. Now I'm just waiting."

I know exactly what is coming next and she does not hesitate. "Well I got into 3 schools so far and I'm SO STRESSED trying to decide. I mean, school X is close to home, but school Y offered me a small scholarship, and school Z has the most amazing campus."

"Congrats on the first-world problems," I mutter behind my sandwich.

"What?"

"Oh. Nothing."

"So what about you?" She asks. "Why haven't you gotten in?"

"Oh, a combination of factors. My low-ish GPA. The fact that I changed my major several times. My lack of a commitment to the underserved throughout undergrad. I never went on a foreign mission trip...and, of course, one of my transcripts got lost in the mail so my AMCAS primary was officially complete something like 2 months after I submitted it..."

"Why didn't you go on any mission trips? They really impress med schools."

"Couldn't afford them. My parents could hardly afford rent and groceries when I started school. They're in better shape now, but still can't afford to give me a couple grand just so I can do something which 'might impress med schools'."

"Oh, well that's unfortunate," she says blandly, like someone who doesn't have any concept what she is talking about. "Say, don't you have a minor in writing?"

"Yes I do. We first met in that Book Editing class."

"Oh that's right!" She laughs. "Well, there's your answer."

"What answer?"

"You're a writer! So what you need to do is write a personal statement that convinces all the adcoms that they NEED to accept you!"

"And how do I do that?"

"Write about your trials and difficulties. Write about how being a doctor has ALWAYS been your dream. Make the adcoms believe that this is your destiny and that they would be making a horrible choice to turn you down! You like novels, so write your personal statement like it's the novel about your life."

"No one would want to read that novel," I mutter. "I haven't done anything novel-worthy."

"Adcoms want to read it! You just have to make it interesting."

"But... I haven't done ANYTHING worthy of a novel. Adcoms are reading thousands of these--how do I make mine stand out?"

"Well, if you haven't done anything interesting... MAKE IT UP."

"I... what?"

"That's what I did." She sort of shrugs and looks at the ceiling. Afraid to make eye contact? "Freshman year I went to Mexico for spring break. Got completely ****-faced drunk. Best spring break ever...I stayed with my aunt. She's a doctor down there. One day, I got to put on some scrubs and look around her clinic. I got this great picture, too." She pulls out her brand-new iPhone and swishes her finger across the screen until she comes across a picture of herself in plain blue scrubs. She has a net over her hair and a surgical mask pulled down to her chin so the camera could catch her wide smile. Behind her is an old wall-mounted blood pressure cuff. "I told the adcoms that I spent the week checking blood pressures and giving vitamins to homeless people. They loved it."

I can only stare. I wonder why she's telling me this. Is she bragging? Or does she have a guilty conscience and feel the need to confess?

She puts the iPhone away. "Same thing the next couple years. I went to Peru, and some hell-hole in Africa. Hated Africa. Got some good pictures at least... Adcoms loved every minute of it. Fourth year was a little different... my mom went to Rome and took me along. I told the Adcoms that I helped at some soup kitchens in Rome, but didn't have any pictures. They loved that, too."

"Haha." I laugh uncomfortably. "So, you straight-up lied to their faces?"

She shrugs. Again refuses to make eye contact. "I told them what they wanted to hear."

"But it was a lie."

"Everyone lies." She shrugs again. "That's how you get into med school."

"I didn't," I say, a little too harshly. "Not once. I didn't make up any experiences or exaggerate any of my volunteer hours."

She glares at me, now looking sour. "Well, maybe that's why you haven't been accepted yet!"

"Uhmmm...." I have no response.

She stands up. The sour look is gone in an instant. "Well, good luck Spinach. I hope you get in somewhere."



***


An open letter to Adcoms:

Men and women of the adcoms in this country, PLEASE take a step back for a moment and look at the culture you have created.

By expecting every single applicant to have volunteer, shadowing, leadership, research, and community service experiences, you have inadvertently created a filter which selects primarily for those premeds who either A) have done these things solely to check off boxes on their way to applying to medical school, or B) are willing to blatantly lie about their own experiences solely to impress you. Either way, the goal behind the creation of these requirements--selecting for students with a little bit of drive, humility, and compassion--has been lost to those who are willing and able to game the system.

Either way, by expecting pre-meds to be super-human, you have put at a disadvantage all those who ARE human and have a conscience.

I did not lie once on my application. I was as honest as I could be. Yet, my (potential) spot is being given to those who will straight up fabricate experiences because they think such things are what you WANT to hear. Think about that for a moment.

Further, by giving any advantage to those who have traveled the country/world to assist the less fortunate, you tilt the game in favor of those who were lucky enough to be born to wealthy parents.

You have created an arms race in which the wealthiest and most dishonest are at an advantage.



So, what can be done? I'm not in your shoes, so I don't know everything that goes through your mind. I can make suggestions, but the decisions and implementation are not mine. The following list is me brainstorming over the internet.

1. Stop giving credence to anything which can be fabricated.

2. I understand the desire for physician shadowing/clinical volunteering, as all students starting medical school should have some concept of what they're getting into. But judging applicants on how many of these experiences they have/how many hours they have is flawed because someone can learn more shadowing in the ER for 50 hours than they can stocking shelves in the ED and fetching water for 500. Then again, someone might shadow in the ER for 500 hours and learn nothing if they are not engaged in what is happening.

3. Start giving more value to things like double majors, minors, and skills which cannot be fabricated (such as speaking other languages or the ability to play an instrument).

4. To summarize my ideas in a nutshell:

A. Start with LizzyM score (or whatever variant you prefer).

B. Add points for things which cannot be fabricated, like:
--speaking foreign languages
--playing instruments
--employment
--peer-reviewed research
--poster presentations
--double majors
--minors
--advanced degrees (MS, PhD, etc)

C. Add (far less) points for things which might be fabricated, or may have been done solely to impress you, like:
--mission trips
--community volunteering
--joining the university pre-med club (or being an officer thereof)
--physician shadowing
--hospital volunteering

D. And the following should have NO bearing on an application:
--major (French Lit or Cell Bio? No difference)
--university (State school or Ivy league)
--community college credit (If I can show I know physics on the MCAT, why does it matter where I took it?)
--what is worn to interviews (Are you going to judge my abilities as a med student by the condition of my shoes?)

E. Highest scores get interviews.




Anyway, a million thanks to those of you who read all of this, and I hope I have given you something to think about.

For those of you who are dizzy and need a tl,dr... Next time I'm sick, I don't want a doctor who got into med school on a lie. Get the liars and gamers out of this process.

Thanks for reading.

1. ADCOMs don't care about mission trips to third world countries. They have said that time and time again on this forum so I doubt the girl was telling the truth and her interviewers were eating it up.

2. If you have a LizzyM of ~75, assuming no red flags, you should not be having trouble getting acceptances. The multiple waitlists you mentioned lead me to believe that you may not be as good of an interviewer as you think you are.

Don't point the finger, pull the thumb.

 

[NontradCA]

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Wait how is your HS ranked so high if they dont even offer a general biology class (and I say "offer" hesitantly because all of the public high schools in my state REQUIRE it)? And they CHARGE you to take AP classes? I didnt know public schools could charge money to take courses... what kind of a crazy school is this?! haha

I just checked US News and they're top 30 in California among public schools so it's definitely relatively highly ranked. We only had general sciences 1/2 that combined all of biology/chemistry/geology/physics/etc into one class freshman and sophomore year. If you actually wanted biology you had to take AP bio. If you wanted chemistry you had to take AP chem. I think that's part of the problem. There's just so much variability between high schools in our country.

Ah I just remembered, you technically don't have to pay to take AP classes do you? It's been so long. But unless you can afford the $100 AP test fee there isn't too much of a point in taking the AP class anyways. I know very few people who took an AP class but didn't take the AP test (outside of weird classes like AP Latin). So I guess you could say there's a charge...at the very end 😉

 

[Ismet]

Adcoms don't put value on shadowing, volunteering, and other clinical experiences because they are impressive. These are valuable experiences because they show that you have been exposed to medicine.

The reasons you gave for why you're on waitlists are not the real reasons why you're on waitlists. Adcoms could care less that you changed your major several times, they probably didn't notice. Very few applicants demonstrate "commitment to the underserved," so unless you were applying to schools with mission statements that said something about underserved populations, that's not the reason either. And the fact that you didn't go on any foreign mission trips is not the reason either. I can probably count on 2 hands the number of applicants I've seen who have gone on foreign mission trips, and for the most part, their descriptions don't sound impressive at all and it's not the reason for accepting them. You're on waitlists possibly because you didn't perform well in interviews, maybe you had lackluster LORs, maybe you applied to too many reach schools, etc.

I'm sorry that the process seems unfair to those on the outside, and at times, yes, liars can get through the cracks. There's really nothing that can be done to stop that. But dishonest pre-meds make dishonest med students before they make dishonest doctors, so chances are their dishonesty will catch up to them at some point in their 4 years of med school.

You also have to realize that medical school admissions becomes more and more competitive every single year. More extremely qualified people are applying, and there are only so many spots to offer. It's not the fault of the adcoms that people are expected to have volunteering and research and shadowing and unique ECs. It's because there are SO MANY....THOUSANDS of applicants who all have similar stats and experiences that the people who do more impressive things have a better chance of rising to the top. Adcoms are not "requiring" superhuman activities. You really can't blame them for the perpetually increasing competitive nature of admissions.

 

[masaraksh]

I just checked US News and they're top 30 in California among public schools so it's definitely relatively highly ranked. We only had general sciences 1/2 that combined all of biology/chemistry/geology/physics/etc into one class freshman and sophomore year. If you actually wanted biology you had to take AP bio. If you wanted chemistry you had to take AP chem. I think that's part of the problem. There's just so much variability between high schools in our country.

Ah I just remembered, you technically don't have to pay to take AP classes do you? But unless you can afford the $100 AP test fee there isn't too much of a point in taking the AP class anyways. I know very few people who took an AP class but didn't take the AP test (outside of weird classes like AP Latin). So I guess you could say there's a charge...at the very end 😉

First $100 is not a huge barrier and certainly there must be fee-assistance programs for the AP tests.

Second, America's high school education system is extremely weak compared to other places. But part of the problem is that everyone is lumped into the same school. I think the system in countries like Germany and Switzerland where students get stratified to the Gymnasium, Hochschule, etc is much better. Even the better American high schools can't compare with the level of work and education at Gymnasiums.

 

[NickNaylor]

You're being naive if you think being published always means you did the work. I know plenty of people first hand who waltz into a lab, run a couple of PCRs, or do a few days of bitch work and end up published (not first author obviously) because of connections. You think volunteer hours and clubs are hard to fabricate?? Dude that is like high school --> college apps 101. People lie out their asses about stuff like that. Don't you think for a second that you're on a level playing field with people by being 100% honest.

That doesn't make lying acceptable, though, and if you think it does then you're just as morally bankrupt as the others.

 

[NickNaylor]

First $100 is not a huge barrier and certainly there must be fee-assistance programs for the AP tests.

Not a huge barrier for you, my friend.

 

[sourdoughllama]

That doesn't make lying acceptable, though, and if you think it does then you're just as morally bankrupt as the others.

I never said I agreed with it or that I lied on my app. In fact, I absolutely hate that people get away with it. To be blind to it is it ignorant, that's all I'm saying

 

[happysnowman]

I'm sorry that your application process has been so vexing. It might be of little consolation to you but I was grilled extensively about my clinical experience (1000+ hours working at a doctor's office for three years) during my interviews. This explains the stranger questions I've had... "have you actually ever touched a patient?" There are plenty of interviewers trying to get an "gotcha!" moment. I think one bad cop interviewer relished that opportunity as the line of questioning became more difficult and rapid fire.

There are plenty of people who slip through the cracks in every selection process in life. It's not exclusive to medical school.

I would encourage you to stop focusing on what makes bad people bad and then try to make your application/interview the most stellar version of who you are. When you're given an interview, you've made the smart pass (can you handle the academic rigors). The interview process and what I feel frustrates most pre med students is evaluated on on how well developed your interpersonal skills are in a stressful environment. Medical schools recognize that which is why MMIs are being adopted at more and more places.

Ultimately, medicine is a service based industry and your bedside manner are valued just as highly by patients as your skills as a clinician. When you interview at residency programs the chief resident looks for fit of personality. Again, the baseline intellectual competencies are met so the final selection criteria is how your work together with your peers and patients.

 

[NickNaylor]

I never said I agreed with it or that I lied on my app. In fact, I absolutely hate that people get away with it. To be blind to it is it ignorant, that's all I'm saying

Ah, I see - I detected a hint of rebellious tone in there so I wasn't sure where you were coming from...

 

[LuciusVorenus]

First $100 is not a huge barrier and certainly there must be fee-assistance programs for the AP tests.

Second, America's high school education system is extremely weak compared to other places. But part of the problem is that everyone is lumped into the same school. I think the system in countries like Germany and Switzerland where students get stratified to the Gymnasium, Hochschule, etc is much better. Even the better American high schools can't compare with the level of work and education at Gymnasiums.

$100 is a huge barrier for many families.

I don't really agree with separating kids into different high schools focusing on different disciplines, but I guess that's just another story. Even if you separate the kids out, it still doesn't solve the problem with low SES high schools. Now you have a low SES Hochschule equivalent. The same problem still exists. If anything that would just raise the average family income of the matriculating class. You can't really compare Germany or any European country to the U.S. We have a giant, diverse population and our income inequality gap is pretty large. This is all if we completely ignore our student loan problems, which is a separate problem by itself.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Adcoms don't put value on shadowing, volunteering, and other clinical experiences because they are impressive. These are valuable experiences because they show that you have been exposed to medicine.

The reasons you gave for why you're on waitlists are not the real reasons why you're on waitlists. Adcoms could care less that you changed your major several times, they probably didn't notice. Very few applicants demonstrate "commitment to the underserved," so unless you were applying to schools with mission statements that said something about underserved populations, that's not the reason either. And the fact that you didn't go on any foreign mission trips is not the reason either. I can probably count on 2 hands the number of applicants I've seen who have gone on foreign mission trips, and for the most part, their descriptions don't sound impressive at all and it's not the reason for accepting them. You're on waitlists possibly because you didn't perform well in interviews, maybe you had lackluster LORs, maybe you applied to too many reach schools, etc.

I'm sorry that the process seems unfair to those on the outside, and at times, yes, liars can get through the cracks. There's really nothing that can be done to stop that. But dishonest pre-meds make dishonest med students before they make dishonest doctors, so chances are their dishonesty will catch up to them at some point in their 4 years of med school.

You also have to realize that medical school admissions becomes more and more competitive every single year. More extremely qualified people are applying, and there are only so many spots to offer. It's not the fault of the adcoms that people are expected to have volunteering and research and shadowing and unique ECs. It's because there are SO MANY....THOUSANDS of applicants who all have similar stats and experiences that the people who do more impressive things have a better chance of rising to the top. Adcoms are not "requiring" superhuman activities. You really can't blame them for the perpetually increasing competitive nature of admissions.

You CAN NOT deny that the process is too subjective... Most people don't get exposed to engineering before becoming engineers and I am sure the majority of them become good ones... Adcoms should not be in a position to judge individuals' motive because they want to become physicians...

 

[Catalystik]

yes, liars can get through the cracks. There's really nothing that can be done to stop that. But dishonest pre-meds make dishonest med students before they make dishonest doctors, so chances are their dishonesty will catch up to them at some point in their 4 years of med school.

Reasons we have negated an acceptance/degree:

• False information found on application.
• Not successfully completing degree.
• Not successfully completing any courses registered for.
• Lying during interview
• False representation of volunteering experience.
• Felony convictions before or during medical school.

We have negated a couple of degrees after they have been conferred which means no MD after 4 years of work because of false information on application.

OP, you, at least, will be able to sleep at night, not having to worry about if/when the hammer will fall.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

Lol... Are you freaking serious? Oh yeah... We allow FMG to become physician in this country... I guess they are NOT well rounded educated citizen/doctor. Seriously!

Again, they are required to go through the entire process again in this country.

 

[mcloaf]

You CAN NOT deny that the process is too subjective... Most people don't get exposed to engineering before becoming engineers and I am sure the majority of them become good ones... Adcoms should not be in a position to judge individuals' motive because they want to become physicians...

Pretty much everything in this post is misguided.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

You CAN NOT deny that the process is too subjective... Most people don't get exposed to engineering before becoming engineers and I am sure the majority of them become good ones... Adcoms should not be in a position to judge individuals' motive because they want to become physicians...

A lot of engineering majors have around a 50-60% drop out rate. My starting class was 200 kids and at year four it was like...92. I guess you could say they are exposed to engineering before deciding to become engineers. It's just the process isn't as expensive as medical school so the 50-60% drop out rate doesn't matter THAT much.

 

[happysnowman]

Adcoms don't put value on shadowing, volunteering, and other clinical experiences because they are impressive. These are valuable experiences because they show that you have been exposed to medicine.

The reasons you gave for why you're on waitlists are not the real reasons why you're on waitlists. Adcoms could care less that you changed your major several times, they probably didn't notice. Very few applicants demonstrate "commitment to the underserved," so unless you were applying to schools with mission statements that said something about underserved populations, that's not the reason either. And the fact that you didn't go on any foreign mission trips is not the reason either. I can probably count on 2 hands the number of applicants I've seen who have gone on foreign mission trips, and for the most part, their descriptions don't sound impressive at all and it's not the reason for accepting them. You're on waitlists possibly because you didn't perform well in interviews, maybe you had lackluster LORs, maybe you applied to too many reach schools, etc.

I'm sorry that the process seems unfair to those on the outside, and at times, yes, liars can get through the cracks. There's really nothing that can be done to stop that. But dishonest pre-meds make dishonest med students before they make dishonest doctors, so chances are their dishonesty will catch up to them at some point in their 4 years of med school.

You also have to realize that medical school admissions becomes more and more competitive every single year. More extremely qualified people are applying, and there are only so many spots to offer. It's not the fault of the adcoms that people are expected to have volunteering and research and shadowing and unique ECs. It's because there are SO MANY....THOUSANDS of applicants who all have similar stats and experiences that the people who do more impressive things have a better chance of rising to the top. Adcoms are not "requiring" superhuman activities. You really can't blame them for the perpetually increasing competitive nature of admissions.

I really should have read the thread before I posted my response because all I did was essentially paraphrase you.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

OP, you, at least, will be able to sleep at night, not having to worry about if/when the hammer will fall.

Completely irrelevant, but perfect use of commas.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

Again, they are required to go through the entire process again in this country.

4 year of undergrad and MCAT? A neighbor back home where I am from finished med school in 6 years and come to the US, crushed Step1/Step2 and now doing his residency in anesthesiology.

 

[MDforMee]

You guys are getting too harsh against the OP. It's obvious that he/she feels bad about not getting in, and there's some reason outside of ECs preventing their acceptance.

Look at what OP said: changed major, doesn't like rich kids, riding a subway eating a cheap sandwich, said that his/her GPA is low, then hates on hard schools and hard majors at the end.

OP should look at SMPs and/or academic masters programs or valuable work experiences, then reapply. This should be a lesson to people to not major in Flute Studies from some small LAC or a bad state school.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

OP should look at SMPs and/or academic masters programs or valuable work experiences, then reapply. This should be a lesson to people to not major in Flute Studies from some small LAC or a bad state school.

I would not do SMP with his stats, he's really close to getting accepted somewhere, if not this cycle and it seems too high of a risk. I'm fathom to guess that 2 semesters at a 4.0 would do the trick and without the risk of an SMP. Regardless, just a re-app and some interviewing workshops would probably be enough and of course assuming he didn't ditch all his EC's in the meantime.