A Culture of Lies (and an Open Letter to Adcoms)

[Ismet]

---

Members don't see this ad.

You CAN NOT deny that the process is too subjective... Most people don't get exposed to engineering before becoming engineers and I am sure the majority of them become good ones... Adcoms should not be in a position to judge individuals' motive because they want to become physicians...

1) you're comparing undergraduate admissions with graduate, medical school admissions. Not the same.

2) If you have NEVER shadowed or otherwise experienced medicine, how do you know you want to be a doctor? Any 5 year old can say they want to be a doctor when they grow up. Med schools don't want to admit someone who then later realizes they hate the actual practice of medicine, they were just in love with the notion or prestige of medicine.

3) adcoms are absolutely in a position to judge your motivation for medicine, just like they're in a position to judge your academic preparedness for medicine and a variety of other things

 

[Doudline]

A lot of engineering majors have around a 50-60% drop out rate. My starting class was 200 kids and at year four it was like...92. I guess you could say they are exposed to engineering before deciding to become engineers. It's just the process isn't as expensive as medical school so the 50-60% drop out rate doesn't matter THAT much.

I do not agree with the post you quoted, but I think what you describe has more to do with the subject in hand. Many people go into engineering because they're kinda good at maths and physics, before realizing that it's not even close to what they thought it was and decide to quit (especially since they usually aren't exposed to engineering ever before in their life, as opposed to medical students who have to take loads of prereqs, the MCAT and more).

Where I come from, one can get into medical school right after high school based solely on GPA + MMI, and the retention rate is in the high 90% (97-99%).

 

[ChemEngMD]

You guys are getting too harsh against the OP. It's obvious that he/she feels bad about not getting in, and there's some reason outside of their ECs that it did.

Look at what OP said: changed major, doesn't like rich kids, riding a subway eating a cheap sandwich, said that his/her GPA is low, then hates on hard schools and hard majors at the end.

OP should look at SMPs and/or academic masters programs or valuable work experiences, then reapply. This should be a lesson to people to not major in Flute Studies from some small LAC or a bad state school.

For the record I'm pretty sure he was sitting in a Subway sandwich shop...not riding a subway.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

I do not agree with the post you quoted, but I think what you describe has more to do with the subject in hand. Many people go into engineering because they're kinda good at maths and physics, before realizing that it's not even close to what they think it is and decide to quit

A little of both, some are good and math and physics, some not at all. My info may be outdated but the undergraduate culture of engineering was one of weed out and retention has been a concern for a long time, especially with women and minorities. Additionally, American culture also does not (still) think of engineering as a "cool" thing especially compared to other countries, though it has gotten better over the past 20-30 years.

 

[masaraksh]

Not a huge barrier for you, my friend.

$100 is a huge barrier for many families.

Well, my point was that if you're attending a high school that offers AP-levels then there are surely systems in place that will help you with a $100 fee.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I do not agree with the post you quoted, but I think what you describe has more to do with the subject in hand. Many people go into engineering because they're kinda good at maths and physics, before realizing that it's not even close to what they thought it was and decide to quit (especially since they usually aren't exposed to engineering ever before in their life, as opposed to medical students who have to take loads of prereqs, the MCAT and more).

Where I come from, one can get into medical school right after high school based solely on GPA + MMI, and the retention rate is in the high 90% (97-99%).

Maybe my analogy was somewhat an hyperbole, but I am glad you got my point... This process is too subjective and the 4-year of undergrad is not needed IMO.

 

[masaraksh]

I do not agree with the post you quoted, but I think what you describe has more to do with the subject in hand. Many people go into engineering because they're kinda good at maths and physics, before realizing that it's not even close to what they thought it was and decide to quit (especially since they usually aren't exposed to engineering ever before in their life, as opposed to medical students who have to take loads of prereqs, the MCAT and more).

Where I come from, one can get into medical school right after high school based solely on GPA + MMI, and the retention rate is in the high 90% (97-99%).

loads of prereqs
loads...

seriously?

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Well, my point was that if you're attending a high school that offers AP-levels then there are surely systems in place that will help you with a $100 fee.

Yeah I can see what you're saying. I think only something like 60% of low SES kids end up getting the fee waiver though. I was just saying that if you're unfortunate in that you don't attend a school that offers AP-level courses, you'd be S.O.L if there was no undergrad between high school and med school.

 

[NickNaylor]

Well, my point was that if you're attending a high school that offers AP-levels then there are surely systems in place that will help you with a $100 fee.

Based on what? Why would you assume this?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

loads of prereqs
loads...

seriously?

Bio 1&2, Genchem 1&2, Orgo 1&2, Physics 1&2, English 1&2, Math, Biochem, Behavioral science.. Genetics, Physiology are recommended... That is a load of prereqs if you ask me.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

For the record I'm pretty sure he was sitting in a Subway sandwich shop...not riding a subway.

Ugh. Now I'm confused.

A little of both, some are good and math and physics, some not at all. My info may be outdated but the undergraduate culture of engineering was one of weed out and retention has been a concern for a long time, especially with women and minorities. Additionally, American culture also does not (still) think of engineering as a "cool" thing especially compared to other countries, though it has gotten better over the past 20-30 years.

I took an EECS class or two. There was like...one girl.

Also they started us out freshman year by doing the whole "look to your left look to your right" thing. I think the culture you mentioned is still there.

 

[mcloaf]

OP should look at SMPs and/or academic masters programs or valuable work experiences, then reapply. This should be a lesson to people to not major in Flute Studies from some small LAC or a bad state school.

Most small LAC's have very high med school acceptance rates. Mine was north of 90%.

 

[MDforMee]

For the record I'm pretty sure he was sitting in a Subway sandwich shop...not riding a subway.

Ahh yes, in a subway. If you'll excuse me, I'm getting ready to leave for my worthless non-SMP masters program in a hard medically related science at a harder school and I'm just bitter about my non-padded GPA not doing me any favors.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Ahh yes, in a subway. If you'll excuse me, I'm getting ready to leave for my worthless non-SMP masters program in a hard medically related science at a harder school and I'm just bitter about my non-padded GPA not doing me any favors.

If you're on wait lists, there's still hope. It's way too early to start giving up it's not even May 15th yet. Remember to send those updates!

 

[masaraksh]

Bio 1&2, Genchem 1&2, Orgo 1&2, Physics 1&2, English 1&2, Math, Biochem, Behavioral science.. Genetics, Physiology are recommended... That is a load of prereqs if you ask me.

Assuming 5 courses per semester for 4 years = total of 40 classes in college.
Bio 1&2, Genchem 1&2, Orgo 1&2, Physics 1&2, English 1&2, Math (1 sem) = required = 11 semester courses

11/40 = 27.5% of your courses.

I don't think that is very much, especially when you consider how basic these classes are.

 

[masaraksh]

Yeah I can see what you're saying. I think only something like 60% of low SES kids end up getting the fee waiver though. I was just saying that if you're unfortunate in that you don't attend a school that offers AP-level courses, you'd be S.O.L if there was no undergrad between high school and med school.

True, yet even with undergrad as a 'buffer', low SES creates a huge disadvantage.

Based on what? Why would you assume this?

Going to a school in a low SES neighborhood in Canada. There were lots of kids whose families were refugees and they got aid for thing like permission slips and trips, etc. But, strictly, yes you are right - it was an assumption.

But c'mon. We are talking about a $100 fee for an AP test. At the end of a class. A course that, if offered by the public school, would be offered for free. I think it is fair to say that if your only hurdle at the end of that course would be the $100 to take the AP exam, there will be something at the school to aid you. I simply believe that this is not enough to be reasonably called a 'huge' hurdle.

 

[Lucca]

Many pick biology because it includes all or almost all of the prerequisite courses needed for med school.

Going to med school from high school would be a terrible idea in this country. Our primary and secondary education system is terrible at leveling the playing field and kids at crappy schools would never get a shot to be doctors if they hadn't gone to college. Not to say college makes it a lot better but it's at least some kind of buffer.

I think this is definitely true and this is the most likely case as to why we don't have as many BS/MD programs out of high school and the ones we do have are pretty competitive. Also, I think it's ridiculous how much pressure current high school students have to get into top colleges in general - especially with undergraduate costs rising and everyone having this discussion about "the value of an undergraduate education". This country needs more pre-professional programs but, like you said, we can't implement them with a pitiful primary and secondary system. It's a chicken and egg problem.

 

[Lucca]

Assuming 5 courses per semester for 4 years = total of 40 classes in college.
Bio 1&2, Genchem 1&2, Orgo 1&2, Physics 1&2, English 1&2, Math (1 sem) = required = 11 semester courses

11/40 = 27.5% of your courses.

I don't think that is very much, especially when you consider how basic these classes are.

I'm not disagreeing with you that pre-reqs are "too much", but you should also consider:

2 hours of bio lab (either 1 semester or 2 depending on your school), 2 hours of chem lab (1 or 2 again), Orgo lab 1, Orgo lab 2, Physics lab 1, physics lab 2.

That's at least 6 more semester courses and at most 8. Biochem is now recommended and for the newer premeds, such as myself, psych or sociology is also recommended. That's 10-11 more semester courses for a total of 21-22 semester courses. That's over 50% of your courses. Whether it's formal or not, "pre-med" is a major all its own. I'm a double major in philosophy/Biochemistry (technically I'm currently physics and my course sequence reflects this) and my biochemistry major is basically just pre-med reqs + 3 more science classes/labs.

I mean, bio and chem lab are generally super easy but Orgo and Physics labs are nothing to sneeze at. At my college Orgo labs are curved in such a way only 2 people can get an A and the physics labs are run by TAs that are almost universally unreasonable graders. It's stupid.

If I would change anything, I would remove the physics lab requirements and maybe even drop physics requirements all together. Now before my fellow physics majors freak out on me, let's be honest.....1 semester of algebra based mechanics is probably "good enough". I love physics and even my passion for the field isn't enough to warrant the death gauntlet that is the physics department.

Also, I would remove any and all lab requirements for anyone with 1 or more years of experience working in a scientific lab setting. I learned everything I would've in chem lab in the first week of my first research assignment.

 

[malaika]

I love this thread. Thanks for the ideas. Now I will have to LIE!!!!! Oh gee, thanks Adcoms.

 

[Mad Jack]

Definitely appreciate the sentiment, and I would love more transparency.

That being said, the outcome of interest is quality physicians produced. OP said it best himself - this girl may be your doctor and you wouldn't even know. Aka when she's all done, she'll most likely be a competent, capable doctor.

Med school admissions aren't fair, but what is? Unfairness isn't limited to medicine - it's rife in applying for management consulting, investment banking, a host of other sectors, etc. At times you have to play the game to win (aka wear professional attire, I'm not talking about blatantly lying). As long as med schools continue to produce capable doctors, most of the points raised seem to be secondary.

Now, I do think where social inequality keeps people from checking all the boxes there should be a mechanism to ensure greater diversity in medicine, but that's, IMO, a whole different issue for the most part.

You forgot ethical. Competence and capability with no corresponding ethical backbone is how fraud happens.

 

[chenzt]

Seriously? That is completely ridiculous!

I think double majors, minors, adv. degrees definitely should have a positive influence. (for the record, I don't have any advanced degrees). These things show a lot more work and accomplishment. Strange why you think that shouldn't have any weight.

I graduated with probably more credits compared to a double or maybe even a triple major, since I overloaded for six semesters. The only difference? I didn't followed the prescribed course sequence that the department required so I guess I essentially have a bunch of incomplete majors. Do I get any recognition?

 

[alpinism]

You're being naive if you think being published always means you did the work. I know plenty of people first hand who waltz into a lab, run a couple of PCRs, or do a few days of bitch work and end up published (not first author obviously) because of connections.

Yep. Most of the time getting published is more about who you know than how much work you put into a project.

Just a fact of life in academics (much like in politics for all you house of cards fans).

Its one of the things I really dislike about academic medicine.

 

[alpinism]

1. ADCOMs don't care about mission trips to third world countries. They have said that time and time again on this forum so I doubt the girl was telling the truth and her interviewers were eating it up.

2. If you have a LizzyM of ~75, assuming no red flags, you should not be having trouble getting acceptances. The multiple waitlists you mentioned lead me to believe that you may not be as good of an interviewer as you think you are.

Pretty much this.

Her "mission trips" likely did very little for her application.

 

[masaraksh]

I'm not disagreeing with you that pre-reqs are "too much", but you should also consider:

2 hours of bio lab (either 1 semester or 2 depending on your school), 2 hours of chem lab (1 or 2 again), Orgo lab 1, Orgo lab 2, Physics lab 1, physics lab 2.

I do also consider. Your point about having labs waived for people with 'some lab experience' is insane.

 

[SunsFun]

Pretty much this.

Her "mission trips" likely did very little for her application.

I would really like to think so. I wonder if any adcoms can speak up on how their colleagues see those "mission trips". I sometimes get a feeling that we get the coolest adcoms to participate on SDN. I wonder if the rest of them who don't really use the Internet also feel this way.

 

[Syndicate]

I never said I agreed with it or that I lied on my app. In fact, I absolutely hate that people get away with it. To be blind to it is it ignorant, that's all I'm saying

I know someone who blatantly lied about her volunteer hours and classified classes on amcas to her advantage (amcas didn't pick it up cause those classes were vague). She ended up getting to my dream school that I got waitlisted by. Call me bitter but that's not fair when I worked for my hours and answered my amcas truthfully

 

[sourdoughllama]

I know someone who blatantly lied about her volunteer hours and classified classes on amcas to her advantage (amcas didn't pick it up cause those classes were vague). She ended up getting to my dream school that I got waitlisted by. Call me bitter but that's not fair when I worked for my hours and answered my amcas truthfully

It's so annoying, completely agreed. At least you know you earned your spot at the achool you got into. People have no shame

 

[SunsFun]

I know someone who blatantly lied about her volunteer hours and classified classes on amcas to her advantage (amcas didn't pick it up cause those classes were vague). She ended up getting to my dream school that I got waitlisted by. Call me bitter but that's not fair when I worked for my hours and answered my amcas truthfully

Bear with for this hypothetical. Just as a disclaimer, I don't advocate misrepresenting yourself or engaging into any other immoral behavior. I am against people like this getting a leg up. Nonetheless, I have seen research which showed that good liars are generally stronger leaders and are better at persuading people to follow then. Given that doctoring is a service job with a strong leadership component, couldn't those people show some innate aptitude for the job despite being morally questionable?

 

[BestDoctorEver]

I guess it is a supply and demand thing... The more people want to get into med school, the more the process will become more stringent. Getting into pharmacy school at one time was not 'easy'. Now if you get a 2.8 c/sGPA and 50 percentile PCAT, you are in.

 

[sliceofbread136]

Based on what? Why would you assume this?

There definitely is a fee waiver system that brings the price per a test down to 5 dollars

 

[Planes2Doc]

This is a terrific post @Spinach Dip ! I share a lot of the same sentiments as you.

In terms of ECs, I think that the medical school admissions process has ruined the meaning of it. For example, have you ever met someone who is not pre-med, and is involved in multiple volunteer activities? You'd be blown away and feel such admiration for them, even if they have only "average" activities compared to someone in the WAMC chances thread. But what happens when a pre-med tells you that they are volunteering for five different organizations? Yawn, so what?

These activities were supposed to be something special, now they are expected. You don't ask a pre-med if they volunteer, you instead ask them where they are volunteering. If a pre-med tells you they aren't volunteering, then that's the real shocker! I believe that someone with average stats applying to medical school without volunteering is just like walking into a medical school interview with their pants pulled down! 😱

Medical school admissions has created the "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicant. This is someone who never volunteered a day in their life before becoming pre-med, yet the moment they become pre-med, they suddenly pick up a long laundry-list of activities! Now, you'd think that pre-meds would be highly respected in society since they are so heavily involved in service, but on the contrary, pre-meds have horrible reputations in the volunteer community. How could this be?!

Pre-meds remind me of King Midas. They ruin just about anything they touch. I'm assuming that years ago, pre-meds that went on short-term mission trips probably figured out a way to really stand out for ADCOMs. Then years later, the opinions of mission trips has changed significantly. Now they might not only look neutral on your application, but can actually look bad too! I think the next thing to go down to metaphorical drain is non-profits. Currently I hear that they look good. But pretty soon they will be overdone to the point, where they too, will start to look either neutral or bad to ADCOMs.

This really sucks... The very few people that are genuinely altruistic will be overshadowed by "ZERO to Mother Teresa" applicants in the process. I mean seriously, are pre-meds a unique morally superior group of people compared to the rest of society? How many genuinely altruistic people have you met who do as many activities as pre-meds?

Here's an interesting thing to think about. Have you ever heard of the Route 29 Batman? Read this heart-warming story:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...tman-this-guy/2012/03/28/gIQA8nPjgS_blog.html

Now tell me, if you suddenly found out he was pre-med, would your opinion suddenly change?

 

[kittykattat]

Based on what? Why would you assume this?

I would assume this because compared
To this guy's top rated HS, my public hs might as well have been ranked dead last, and we had a horribly insufficient budget, yet between my school and its alumni and private scholarships from the community, they made sure that everyone who wanted to take the test could get the funds to do so. This entire argument is beside the point though b/c this kid's school DOES offer AP classes, and probably more than most public schools, so even if some of their students cant afford to take the test, they still got an entire year of biology. I dont think I would have been any less prepared for intro bio at my university if I had taken a year of AP bio instead of a year of AP bio with one extra 3 hour exam

 

[Mad Jack]

Bear with for this hypothetical. Just as a disclaimer, I don't advocate misrepresenting yourself or engaging into any other immoral behavior. I am against people like this getting a leg up. Nonetheless, I have seen research which showed that good liars are generally stronger leaders and are better at persuading people to follow then. Given that doctoring is a service job with a strong leadership component, couldn't those people show some innate aptitude for the job despite being morally questionable?

People who lie about a few things in their app may be better leaders, but they are probably also more likely to stretch the truth when it comes to billing practices and referrals, and possibly to insist on unnecessary procedures to line their pockets. They're also probably more prone to throwing other people under the bus when a mistake is made, and attempting to cover up their poor performance and mistakes rather than face them.

 

[SilentSoldier]

True, yet even with undergrad as a 'buffer', low SES creates a huge disadvantage.



Going to a school in a low SES neighborhood in Canada. There were lots of kids whose families were refugees and they got aid for thing like permission slips and trips, etc. But, strictly, yes you are right - it was an assumption.

But c'mon. We are talking about a $100 fee for an AP test. At the end of a class. A course that, if offered by the public school, would be offered for free. I think it is fair to say that if your only hurdle at the end of that course would be the $100 to take the AP exam, there will be something at the school to aid you. I simply believe that this is not enough to be reasonably called a 'huge' hurdle.

I don't think that schools offer aid, its a bit different I believe. My high school was in a dirt poor area and we had our AP tests subsidized down to $5 per test. My guess would be that depending on the area, the tests would be subsidized. The other thing is to consider having teachers capable of teaching the class, if the school offered the class (my school only offered a few AP courses), and how the classes were taught.

 

[SunsFun]

People who lie about a few things in their app may be better leaders, but they are probably also more likely to stretch the truth when it comes to billing practices and referrals, and possibly to insist on unnecessary procedures to line their pockets. They're also probably more prone to throwing other people under the bus when a mistake is made, and attempting to cover up their poor performance and mistakes rather than face them.

In other words they make perfect candidates for upper-level healthcare administration.

Edit: beware OP, that girl you has lunch with might end up being your boss one day.

 

[487806]

Seriously? That is completely ridiculous!

I think double majors, minors, adv. degrees definitely should have a positive influence. (for the record, I don't have any advanced degrees). These things show a lot more work and accomplishment. Strange why you think that shouldn't have any weight.

Why should they? Most double majors are science pairs (bio and chem, math and physics etc.), so they share much of the similar reqs. Double majors in science and non-science are rare, so they may warrant a slight benefit, but it's just equivalent to any other major. Minors are entirely useless for the same reason, because there is no universal description as to what subject is easy and what is not. Instead, simple academic well-roundedness suffices. Advanced degrees should mean nothing as well (if anything, they should be scrutinized for their performance and held at different, stricter standards)

 

[masaraksh]

I would assume this because compared
To this guy's top rated HS, my public hs might as well have been ranked dead last, and we had a horribly insufficient budget, yet between my school and its alumni and private scholarships from the community, they made sure that everyone who wanted to take the test could get the funds to do so. This entire argument is beside the point though b/c this kid's school DOES offer AP classes, and probably more than most public schools, so even if some of their students cant afford to take the test, they still got an entire year of biology. I dont think I would have been any less prepared for intro bio at my university if I had taken a year of AP bio instead of a year of AP bio with one extra 3 hour exam

Not sure if you're agreeing with me or not. But your post is good.

 

[masaraksh]

Why should they? Most double majors are science pairs (bio and chem, math and physics etc.), so they share much of the similar reqs. Double majors in science and non-science are rare, so they may warrant a slight benefit, but it's just equivalent to any other major. Minors are entirely useless for the same reason, because there is no universal description as to what subject is easy and what is not. Instead, simple academic well-roundedness suffices. Advanced degrees should mean nothing as well (if anything, they should be scrutinized for their performance and held at different, stricter standards)

... Yes, because MD-PhDs should mean just as much as MDs, right?

 

[487806]

... Yes, because MD-PhDs should mean just as much as MDs, right?

PhD applicants are generally held at stricter standards than traditional and nontrad applicants... you can search for that. It's been discussed before.

 

[Pacna]

I may have stretched the truth a bit on my application/in my interview.

I agree that the admissions criteria have gotten out of hand. What should be done about this? Hell if I know.

 

[HarryPlopper]

I think that person took a BIG risk. However, admission to med school is too subjective IMO... Just make it an high school level MCAT race like other countries do. NO undergrad...Forget about GPAs, ECs and LORs. Med school should be 6 year post high school graduation with basic science included.

Here's a great quote that pertains quite nicely to this: "Many adults' lives suck because they let an idiot teenager plan it for them."

Medicine isn't just a job, it's a life-long commitment that is very difficult to walk away from once you're invested. You will become hundreds of thousands in debt, totally working your ass off, sacrificing your youth to attain just the most basic level of becoming a medical doctor. Every time I see a pre-med complain about how hard life is, it's hard to stifle a laughter. You have no idea what hell means. Likewise when a med student complains about how much work he/she has to do, a resident would laugh in his/her face.

Not trying to do this to be an ass, but what you are suggesting is going to lead to a host of problems, a magnitude that you can not even fathom.

 

[TexasSurgeon]

4 year of undergrad and MCAT? A neighbor back home where I am from finished med school in 6 years and come to the US, crushed Step1/Step2 and now doing his residency in anesthesiology.

For all you are griping about, you only save a year as an FGM vs. US. So stop your griping

I support 4 years of undergrad. It is a more holistic approach.

 

[HarryPlopper]

4 year of undergrad and MCAT? A neighbor back home where I am from finished med school in 6 years and come to the US, crushed Step1/Step2 and now doing his residency in anesthesiology.

You wanna try doing med school out of the US and try getting into a good, competitive program? What was your friend's step score? N=1.

You can ask any Caribbean MD out there. Ask them how are they enjoying applying for residency. Must be a real blast right?

EDIT: Grammar

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I read the title and came into the thead expecting a whinefest to which I was going to reply "boofkcinghoo," but I'm actually sympathetic to your story OP. It sucks and it's true there are cheating two faced fckheads who slip in through the cracks, but by and large most medical students I've met at my school and elsewhere are fine, upstanding individuals befitting the privilege of admission. It's tough but you'll be OK, and the sooner you let this go and move on with your life the better off you'll be

 

[BestDoctorEver]

For all you are griping about, you only save a year as an FGM vs. US.

Actually it is two!

 

[masaraksh]

Here's a great quote that pertains quite nicely to this: "Many adults' lives suck because they let an idiot teenager plan it for them."

Medicine isn't just a job, it's a life-long commitment that is very difficult to walk away from once you're invested. You will become hundreds of thousands in debt, totally working your ass off, sacrificing your youth to attain just the most basic level of becoming a medical doctor. Every time I see a pre-med complain about how hard life is, it's hard to stifle a laughter. You have no idea what hell means. Likewise when a med student complains about how much work he/she has to do, a resident would laugh in his/her face.

Not trying to do this to be an ass, but what you are suggesting is going to lead to a host of problems, a magnitude that you can not even fathom.

For some, medicine is a "job" and your comparison of a medical career to some sort of sainthood is getting ridiculous.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

... Yes, because MD-PhDs should mean just as much as MDs, right?

MD/PhD per se means nothing more

 

[HarryPlopper]

I read the title and came into the thead expecting a whinefest to which I was going to reply "boofkcinghoo," but I'm actually sympathetic to your story OP. It sucks and it's true there are cheating two faced fckheads who slip in through the cracks, but by and large most medical students I've met at my school and elsewhere are fine, upstanding individuals befitting the privilege of admission. It's tough but you'll be OK, and the sooner you let this go and move on with your life the better off you'll be

I would also like to see that girl try to bullsh*t a residency interview when it all comes down to LOR, Steps, Clinical grades. EC aren't worth nearly as much unless it's something of significant value. Also, those EC are much easier to look up.

 

[HarryPlopper]

For some, medicine is a "job" and your comparison of a medical career to some sort of sainthood is getting ridiculous.

Yes there are many people who will do medicine for a job and enjoy it. However this does not hold true for many people and those people once invested can not get out of it. My point is that if you didn't do medicine for the right reasons or if you don't have the drive to follow through, even if it is for prestige or money, it's going to be a difficult life for you.

As a pre-med, I don't expect you to understand.

 

[jazzfanzz]

Trust but verify!