A Different View on "Traditional" Students

[Katie]

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So, I've noticed on these boards that most threads tend to post a negative view of those who enter med school straight out of undergrad or take 1-2 years off. such students are also often presented as being immature and lame b/c they are not married or engaged, and the "gunner" myth also runs true.. While stereotypes may apply to some people, I just want to say that I admire a few things about the {successful} traditional student. first, I think it's great that he/she has the gumption to follow a childhood dream of being a doctor and to try their best to get through the hurdles of applying, etc. This is not being a gunner, this is dedication at a young age, and it's not due only to being rich or super-priveleged (Dr. Ben Carson was a trad. student). second, I don't think it's so terrible to go to bars and act somewhat immature sometimes as more trads do; while drinking is not for everyone, I think people who are deadly serious all the time and go on and on about how immature everyone else is and discuss only "serious" world issues are going to make themselves and others miserable. what's wrong with enjoying your youth while you can (within reason)? finally, trads have many of the same life problems as the rest of the population; depression and other mental illnesses, weight and health problems, facing prejudice in school or the workplace, death in the family, etc. I say if you can overcome these problems at a young age (or any age for that matter), more power to you! I know more people who went through trauma at a young age, in fact, than I do people who had major life traumas at 30+. My friend's dad died of cancer at the beginning of her second year of law school (she was 23 and her brother 16) and although her grades slipped for a few months she did persevere and took it in stride. My dad was hospitalized in a mental institution in his mid/late 20's and he came back as well.. I admire non-trads who have the gumption to go back to school and take on a lot of responsibility, but I also admire the more traditional student for all the reasons mentioned above. good luck to all of you..

 

[Mike59]

Originally posted by Katie
So, I've noticed on these boards that most threads tend to post a negative view of those who enter med school straight out of undergrad or take 1-2 years off. such students are also often presented as being immature and lame

Have you ever hung around a group of state school Bio majors?? The reputation is there for a reason. A large majority of my fellow college premeds were immature, inexperienced in real world people skills, and naive about what they were getting themselves into. Many see the MD as a one way ticket to financial wealth, forgetting about the harsh realities of medicine. Many had never set foot in a hospital door. Many cheated off one another's homework and tried to take advantage of people like me who wouldn't partake in the games.

As a traditional premed myself, I see the reputation as being a just one.

 

[pathdr2b]

Originally posted by Katie
finally, trads have many of the same life problems as the rest of the population;

But the ONE life changing issue 99.9% of trads don't have is a spouse and/or children. By definition, this seperates trads form nontrads.

 

[thedevirginator]

Many cheated off one another's homework and tried to take advantage of people like me who wouldn't partake in the games-Mike59. Good for you.

 

[OnyxGaia]

Originally posted by Mike59
Have you ever hung around a group of state school Bio majors?? The reputation is there for a reason. A large majority of my fellow college premeds were immature, inexperienced in real world people skills, and naive about what they were getting themselves into. Many see the MD as a one way ticket to financial wealth, forgetting about the harsh realities of medicine. Many had never set foot in a hospital door. Many cheated off one another's homework and tried to take advantage of people like me who wouldn't partake in the games.

As a traditional premed myself, I see the reputation as being a just one.

I actually have a positive view of traditional students. I wish I had stayed focused and applied to med school as a trad. It's a lot harder when you have work and family.

The new reality is that there are a lot of non-traditional students entering med school and I appreciate this site for the support it offers. So both trads and non-trads, you go!

Onyx

 

[Cacophony]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
But the ONE life changing issue 99.9% of trads don't have is a spouse and/or children. By definition, this seperates trads form nontrads.

But what is the statistic on the number of nontrads that have a spouse or children?
I know in the post-bac program (average age ~28) I attended there were tons of people with serious relationships (i.e. live in SO), but a low percentage of actual married students and hardly anyone with kids.

Being older and having a spouse and/or children does mean you have stricter time constraints, but I don't think it automatically qualifies you as mature. I know far too many non-trads who do not fit this characteristic.

Also, the "gunner" reputation can be applied to non-trads too. Ask any freshman pre-med student at a school with an established post-bac program what they think of the non-trads in their classes.

It doesn't matter if you are 50 or 22; we are all going to be in the same place MS1. Find the commonalties, not the differences.

 

[indianboy]

Dear Katie,
You make me want to take a drill to my head.

Hope that Helps.

PShankOut

 

[Mutterkuchen]

The key is diversity. I think that as a general rule, youth brings energy and new ideas to a class. I experienced this first hand in the corporate world.

Likewise, a non-trad like myself, brings a diferent prospecitve-not necessarily bettter, just different. I was a working stiff. I know what it is like to be under job related stress for some project that means nothing in the big picture. I hope to be able to contribute a different prospective to my future classmates.

I took a TPR class with a bunch of trad undergrads at Wash U. Some were mature to the point of being boring. Some were capable of being mature, but knew how to live a little. Some were grossly immature.

And a couple were socially inept. These are the ones that I worry about. They will have high GPAs, very high MCATS, but will struggle to get accepted. They will be the guy you know who has a 3.9 GPA and 36 MCAT and didn't get in, which will stress everyone else out.

 

[kaos]

I'm sorry, u got me all confused. How is Ben Carson not a non-trad? 😕

 

[zingyraindrop]

Personally I don't care much for stereotyping anyone (trad or nontrad as an example). When I interact or experience the person it all depends how we move or what we do in the relationship (whether class mates, or friends, ...etc.).

If I keep an open mind I believe that both sides can show their nuances in an unbiased way, because it is possible that the definition of the trad or nontrad applies but the person inside could be trad or nontrad.

I believe that the definitions (terms) were to facilitate the education systems (eg. returning student...different fee/time/courses/criteria) and not necessarily for people to be viewed differently.

So, my motto is each person to his/her own, that way hopefully I can be free of any biases (if possible)

cheers
zingy

 

[Gleevec]

I agree with Zingy, you have to be pretty arrogant and naive to think that ALL trads are gunners and that ALL non-trads are not. While it is true having a family will mellow people out a bit, the fact is there are several good reasons to go straight out of undergrad. One of them for me is in fact having a family. I dont want to put my family through a grueling residency. That is something I can spare them by going straight to med school.

Also, a lot of you have described gunner premeds as a reason that trads are desireable. But the fact is, there really arent that many of them, they are just more noticeable since they tend to be the louder jerks. And I agree, many non-trads are the first ones to start whining about their grades and trying to suck up to the profs in their postbacc/med classes, but many dont resort to this as well.

In general, its pretty stupid to try and generalize such a huge number of people. The kinds of people who make such conclusions tend to be the ones that want to insult the group they are not apart of in order to make their own group look better. Pretty pointless.

 

[Toots]

Hmmmm.....I'm almost 28, graduated 6 yrs. ago, in my 2nd semester of post-bac classes, single, no boyfriend, no kids, love to go to bars - so what the hell does that make me??? A non-trad trad? A trad non-trad? Help, I'm confused!!! 😛

(Just as trads hate being stereotyped, so do non-trads).

 

[Iffy premed]

I think traditional premeds got the immature, bar-hopping reputation because the majority of them aren't suitable for med school to begin with. We have to look at the traditional premeds who actually get in med school and do well in them. They work just as hard...yes...we don't have a family to look after...but how does it feel to have your whole family riding on your back to make it in? talk about pressure
but yes..i do admit that even among the trad premeds who make it, there is less life experience compared to non-trad, but give us a few years, would you?

 

[Gleevec]

I agree with Iffy. Of course most trads dont have as much life experience as nontrads because we are younger. So what if we dont have a family or have held a job yet? We might not be totally mature now, but we will be by the time we in residency. Plus, not everyone needs to enter the workforce to decide that they want to be doctors instead.

And to those that try to generalize trads and nontrads, get real. The fact is these arent very good classifications in terms of determining behavior. There will be trads who are immature jerks and there will be nontrads who decided wallstreet wasnt giving them enough money, and there will also be the nice and smart trads/nontrads also. You might as well try to equate behavior to height or something...

 

[gdk]

Hey guys, first post on SDN so excuse any subsequent mess-ups...
From what I've seen, many trads just think it would be "cool" to be in med school and aren't dedicated to working hard enough to get there (I had a room-mate in undergrad that was an Aerospace Engineering major because he thought it would be cool to say "why yes, i am a rocket scientist"... too bad for him that you have to pass Physics I to get a BAE).
Most non-trads have to make some sacrifice to go back to school (job, financial, family) so a larger percentage of them are more serious. Or maybe I'm talking out of my butt, that that's what I've seen around campus here.
Anyway, I reall enjoy these SDN forums. Good luck to all of you.

 

[Biodude]

Hmm...

Well, it's funny how premeds are supposed to have a "gunner" mentality. I've already heard horror stories about pre-meds sabatoging other pre-meds' labs, cheated off assignments and tests, etc.

Funny thing is, at my school, the pre-meds are actually pretty nice people. We help eachother out, we encourage eachother, and to my knowledge, no one cheats or sabatoges labs. It's never happened, and some of the nicest people I've met are the other students that want to go into health professions careers at my school.

I really find the supposed "gunner" mentality that we're supposed to be exerting to be funny. While it's true that some of the pre-meds at my school are non-traditional, i.e. post-baccs, I'd say about 90% are "traditional" pre-meds. Yes, I am one too, and I certainly don't take kindly to people stereotyping me as a "gunner" who is "naive" and "only wants to get into medicine for the wealth." 😡

I like to enjoy myself as well, and I have a feeling that I'm more of a type-B personality type than type-A (well, it would explain the messy grades that I've gotten in my freshman first semester year).

 

[Gleevec]

Im not going on a limb to say that older people generally have more life experience than younger people, but to assume that experience is always good. Just like there are gunner premeds, there are nontrads who have come from very cutthroat working environments and carry that into med school. Also, it seems as if some premeds are more enthusiastic about entering medicine and helping people, while some nontrads believe it simply to be an alternate career choice (more $ or respect maybe?). Either way, this only represents the small portion of both groups that Ive seen, and only a few individuals within each group.

But in general, its pretty worthless to try and generalize between these two groups.

 

[lola]

Originally posted by Biodude
Hmm...
Well, it's funny how premeds are supposed to have a "gunner" mentality. I've already heard horror stories about pre-meds sabatoging other pre-meds' labs, cheated off assignments and tests, etc.

Funny thing is, at my school, the pre-meds are actually pretty nice people. We help eachother out, we encourage eachother, and to my knowledge, no one cheats or sabatoges labs. It's never happened, and some of the nicest people I've met are the other students that want to go into health professions careers at my school.

it was that way at my university as well. i met most of my friends in premed classes, and we're still friends 10 years later. (none of us actually applied to med school though except me.) i never once encountered blatant cheating or competition, and never encountered sabotage of any form.

 

[Trix]

I agree lola/biodude. I graduated from Cal last spring, and I never saw anyone "sabotage" anything, despite the unheralded rumors...and at the ripe old age of 35 I made some great friends.

 

[conure]

Originally posted by zingyraindrop
Personally I don't care much for stereotyping anyone (trad or nontrad as an example). When I interact or experience the person it all depends how we move or what we do in the relationship (whether class mates, or friends, ...etc.).

cheers
zingy

This is exactly right, however, the problem here on the boards is that you can't interact in the true sense of the word. If someone didn't tell you their age or their situation you would only be making assumptions based off what information is in their posts. It is not possible to show the proper emotion here to make the appropriate connections. Bottom line you never know someones true story.

As a 30 year old in a post bac program I studied with a 22, and 23 yo and it was wonderful. They had different perspectives and different energies. I couldn't pick out those same people on this board if you guaranteed me admission. Incidently they are both waiting to apply.

I see more comments on these boards against older applicants then anything else. Granted lately there appear to have been many posts by "non-trads" so it seems skewed. But , overall I think the assumptions of many on this board are that they are dealing with mostly undergrads and recent grads.

I think the examples sited by the OP are incredibly rare. Taking two years off after college is the best thing any applicant can do and I think most adcoms would agree.

 

[Gleevec]

I really cant imagine taking 1-2 years off. Depending on specialty, you could be looking at another 6-8 years of residency after 4 years of med school. Thats 10-12 years, or 12-14 years if you take years off.

Im not saying that everyone should just go straight to med school, but just like there are valid reasons to want to take a few years off, there are equally valid reasons for people to go straight to med school.

To each his own.

 

[pillowhead]

I agree with Gleevec about taking time off. As a women who wants to have four kids some day, I feel like my biological clock is going to be a ticking away by the time I finish residency and feel financially stable enough to have children. I personally feel that my taking time off would just be delaying my life to some extent since I already have concrete goals I'd like to meet. That said, I don't think that's true for eveyone by any means, and lots of people have goals that require them to be out of school and the medical field for a while. If time off fits in with your life plan, more power to you! If you're qualified to get in straight out of college, and you don't feel a burning desire to take time off, I see no reason to.

 

[fonzy]

I will be applying for 2005. By that time I will be 41. I am so happy I made this decision. I feel very good about it. Life is for positive work....and that brings happiness.

cheers🙂

 

[relatively prime]

All these stereotypes are really getting old. There are some people who are mature at 19 and some who are immature at 31. Maturity isn't always about age. And who ever got the idea that having a spouse and kids makes a person more mature or ready for med school? I know plenty of very immature parents and spouses. I'm married and I'm telling you... it's no big trick.

And for the record, I'm a trad student...I've never cheated, I don't drink or smoke... and I like to talk about current events... and I didn't have to take 5 years off from school to become this "mature."

 

[indianboy]

You're as mature as my bunghole.

Hope that Helps.

P 'Nah uh' ShankOut

 

[rbassdo]

Originally posted by pathdr2b
But the ONE life changing issue 99.9% of trads don't have is a spouse and/or children. By definition, this seperates trads form nontrads.

Yes! And I thank God every day for being in that 99.9%.

 

[gotgirth]

Originally posted by Mike59
Have you ever hung around a group of state school Bio majors?? The reputation is there for a reason. A large majority of my fellow college premeds were immature, inexperienced in real world people skills, and naive about what they were getting themselves into. Many see the MD as a one way ticket to financial wealth, forgetting about the harsh realities of medicine. Many had never set foot in a hospital door. Many cheated off one another's homework and tried to take advantage of people like me who wouldn't partake in the games.

As a traditional premed myself, I see the reputation as being a just one.

Not to take us off topic, but...

Please explain relevancy of the Bio majors being from a "state school".

 

[Mike59]

Originally posted by gotgirth
Please explain relevancy of the Bio majors being from a "state school".

I was just using my school (a state institution) as an example of my point, coming from first-hand experience. Yea yea yea, everyone should be treated as an individual..... BUT when a large cohort exhibits characteristic behavior, I can't help but attach a generalization to that group (while leaving open the possibility for individal exceptions).😉

 

[thewzdoc]

I'm one of those horrible non-trads?😀 Funny, I find that while I'm in class with the 20-somethings we are all the "same" we all study, we all try to succeed. One of the issues that I have with our current society, which is being reflected here, is that we find a latch onto the differences. As Rodney King said. ?Can?t we all just get along!?

I hate stereo types and pluralities, all people that stereo type are bad! 😛

 

[thewzdoc]

I'm one of those horrible non-trads?😀 Funny, I find that while I'm in class with the 20-somethings we are all the "same" we all study, we all try to succeed. One of the issues that I have with our current society, which is being reflected here, is that we find a latch onto the differences. As Rodney King said. ?Can?t we all just get along!?

I hate stereo types and pluralities, all people that stereo type are bad! 😛

 

[xaelia]

I'll be 25 entering medical school next fall...and I certainly won't be the most mature. Perfect for Pediatrics! 😉

The one reason I do wish I'd taken the more direct route to medical school is that I would have been far more inclined to do MSTP if I were starting medical school younger, as I'd love the opportunity to spend a couple years dedicated to research, too....

 

[wack]

Being old stinks. Literally and figuratively. All you trad students, one day soon, will be old (and the time will fly by because you will be working yourself to death). With your age will come the commensurate benefits that non-trads rave about (maturity) and probably the things you dislike about non-trads about less time, energy, boring, cynicism etc. Non-trads try to console themselves with the "maturity" thing but they are just trying to make themselves feel better for being old and behind. I know because I am a non-trad.

However, to really do well in medicine or science I feel like you have to give your life to it, and even more you have to be enthusiastic about your martyrdom. Who could begrudge a non-trad for wanting 4-5 years to him/herself. I mean it can make you feel like you lived two lives instead of one. Of course that is years that are taken from the medical community even though they (taxpayers in the case of state schools) payed the same to train a non-trad as they did a 22 y/o. In the end I believe it is better to be an excellent doctor for 25 years as opposed to a lousy doctor for 30 or 35 years. I start this August as a 27 y/o who made some mistakes early in life and listened to the wrong people. I hope that the perspective and non-conventional experience I have can make up for the years I "lost" but I doubt it can.

 

[Blitzkrieg]

Originally posted by relatively prime
All these stereotypes are really getting old. There are some people who are mature at 19 and some who are immature at 31. Maturity isn't always about age. And who ever got the idea that having a spouse and kids makes a person more mature or ready for med school? I know plenty of very immature parents and spouses. I'm married and I'm telling you... it's no big trick.

And for the record, I'm a trad student...I've never cheated, I don't drink or smoke... and I like to talk about current events... and I didn't have to take 5 years off from school to become this "mature."

very true about being able to be mature young..

as a young applicant, I was told my some (idiots) that I needed more life experience..as in what, more drunkenness and getting laid? Give me an f'ing break. Top schools and people in power know that I , while young, am mature and dedicated, while lower level schools and bureaucrats are afraid of me and people like me because we don't fit their mold. I'm actually non-trad in that I'm so young and done so much stuff. So, b00yah =D