A fatally flawed class

[deleted647690]

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I'm in a course right now at my university, and the whole thing is a complete failure. The class is full of cheaters. I hate it so much.
All of the homework assignments are online, and some people have access to answer keys provided by students who took the class in the past. Success is totally based on the resources at your disposal. Those with the keys are always able to do well. Then, they share answers with some others. To do well on the homework, it seems like you have to either know someone with a key or pester someone enough to provide you with answers.
Those that are completely honest and attempt the homework without using a key will usually end up with wrong answers because of the difficulty of the problems. Meanwhile, others don't have to put forth any effort, and they get everything right.
If you want to do well, it seems like you are basically forced to cheat.
Are there classes like this at your school?

 

[Me.D.]

If it's unfair go tell the prof the situation and ask him to change it.

 

[NotaCop]

That's life buddy

 

[JustAPhD]

No you're not "forced to cheat" in order to do well. You're just making excuses. Is it fair? Doesn't seem like it, but that doesn't mean you can't do well honestly.

 

[aalamruad]

I'm in a course right now at my university, and the whole thing is a complete failure. The class is full of cheaters. I hate it so much.
All of the homework assignments are online, and some people have access to answer keys provided by students who took the class in the past. Success is totally based on the resources at your disposal. Those with the keys are always able to do well. Then, they share answers with some others. To do well on the homework, it seems like you have to either know someone with a key or pester someone enough to provide you with answers.
Those that are completely honest and attempt the homework without using a key will usually end up with wrong answers because of the difficulty of the problems. Meanwhile, others don't have to put forth any effort, and they get everything right.
If you want to do well, it seems like you are basically forced to cheat.
Are there classes like this at your school?

Are there any in-class tests to level the playing field?

 

[Rousey]

Welcome to college. You'll learn some students care more about getting the A then learning the material. Both pathways have advantages and disadvantages. Life isn't fair. Go network with your peers

 

[Glandzburg]

You'll learn some students care more about getting the A then learning the material...

...Go network with your peers

 

[Goro]

And this has what to do with YOUR performance in the class and mastering the material????

I'm in a course right now at my university, and the whole thing is a complete failure. The class is full of cheaters. I hate it so much.
All of the homework assignments are online, and some people have access to answer keys provided by students who took the class in the past. Success is totally based on the resources at your disposal. Those with the keys are always able to do well. Then, they share answers with some others. To do well on the homework, it seems like you have to either know someone with a key or pester someone enough to provide you with answers.
Those that are completely honest and attempt the homework without using a key will usually end up with wrong answers because of the difficulty of the problems. Meanwhile, others don't have to put forth any effort, and they get everything right.
If you want to do well, it seems like you are basically forced to cheat.
Are there classes like this at your school?

 

[Lawpy]

I'm in a course right now at my university, and the whole thing is a complete failure. The class is full of cheaters. I hate it so much.
All of the homework assignments are online, and some people have access to answer keys provided by students who took the class in the past. Success is totally based on the resources at your disposal. Those with the keys are always able to do well. Then, they share answers with some others. To do well on the homework, it seems like you have to either know someone with a key or pester someone enough to provide you with answers.
Those that are completely honest and attempt the homework without using a key will usually end up with wrong answers because of the difficulty of the problems. Meanwhile, others don't have to put forth any effort, and they get everything right.
If you want to do well, it seems like you are basically forced to cheat.
Are there classes like this at your school?

Ok? I'm not sure what you want exactly. This is something discussed between you and the professor

 

[El-Rami]

If you do have knowledge that people are cheating, you really should go to your professor and report it.

 

[Terry Toma]

It should be pretty easy for you to destroy the rest of your class on exams if you've actually been learning the material while they've just been copying answers. If you're finding the homework to be too difficult to complete without cheating, go to the prof or TA's office hours.

 

[7331poas]

Welcome to college. You'll learn some students care more about getting the A then learning the material. Both pathways have advantages and disadvantages. Life isn't fair. Go network with your peers

You mean like all premeds? I'm sure there would be a huge majority of this site who would rather have a easier A than a more enriching B.

 

[Rousey]

You mean like all premeds? I'm sure there would be a huge majority of this site who would rather have a easier A than a more enriching B.

I would definitely love an easy A than an enriching B too haha. I was just saying there's 2 pathways, one leads to a 4.0 and one leads to knowledge. Both 4.0 and knowledge can be obtained though with hard work. Complaining about other won't get you there though

 

[DesitnationMD]

I'm in a course right now at my university, and the whole thing is a complete failure. The class is full of cheaters. I hate it so much.
All of the homework assignments are online, and some people have access to answer keys provided by students who took the class in the past. Success is totally based on the resources at your disposal. Those with the keys are always able to do well. Then, they share answers with some others. To do well on the homework, it seems like you have to either know someone with a key or pester someone enough to provide you with answers.
Those that are completely honest and attempt the homework without using a key will usually end up with wrong answers because of the difficulty of the problems. Meanwhile, others don't have to put forth any effort, and they get everything right.
If you want to do well, it seems like you are basically forced to cheat.
Are there classes like this at your school?

competition breeds corruption. don't let it get you down. you can still EARN an A, whether they are cheating or not. If its that rampant, speak with the prof or leave an anonymous note. a lot of times the profs are lazy and don't know answer keys are readily available for their exams, especially if they just get them online and do not design them themselves. if this prof is literally just re-using old exams, he/she knows EXACTLY what that could mean, they prolly just expect more from students. I had an orgo prof like that, if you had old exams, it was a cake walk as she literally changed nothing year to year. she knew it, but unless she was willing to put in more effort, what was she going to do about it?

 

[LizzyM]

Please do not cheat. There is no way to spin it if you cheat, are caught, and get an institutional action. GAME OVER.

 

[TBV]

Would never advocate cheating on an exam but BS homework (that should have been left in high school) I'd be out there networking trying to get my hands on them keys.

 

[DesitnationMD]

Please do not cheat. There is no way to spin it if you cheat, are caught, and get an institutional action. GAME OVER.

this is an obvious statement that we all agree with i hope and shouldn't really need stating.

however, the situation OP stated is not one of what many would think of as cheating. Here you have a professor, who, if i am reading correctly, uses the SAME homework, hands them BACK and PROVIDES ANWER KEYS to the class, and then DOESNT EVEN CHANGE the answer keys. whats the cheating in studying off an old homework if the PROF is handing them back? did the prof ask the class nto to share? if not, i'd say its a very lazy prof and, again, competition donig what it does.

LizzyM, how would you weigh in on THIS situation that the op seems to be describing?

 

[LizzyM]

this is an obvious statement that we all agree with i hope and shouldn't really need stating.

however, the situation OP stated is not one of what many would think of as cheating. Here you have a professor, who, if i am reading correctly, uses the SAME homework, hands them BACK and PROVIDES ANWER KEYS to the class, and then DOESNT EVEN CHANGE the answer keys. whats the cheating in studying off an old homework if the PROF is handing them back? did the prof ask the class nto to share? if not, i'd say its a very lazy prof and, again, competition donig what it does.

LizzyM, how would you weigh in on THIS situation that the op seems to be describing?

If students are using materials that are not available to all students and are not authorized by use by the professor, the professor may charge the students using the material with academic dishonesty. Engaging in academic dishonesty and needing to report an institutional action based on that behavior hurts applicants who are otherwise strong. Saying that the professor was lazy and everyone was doing it does not make it less dishonest.

 

[efle]

If students are using materials that are not available to all students and are not authorized by use by the professor, the professor may charge the students using the material with academic dishonesty....Saying that the professor was lazy and everyone was doing it does not make it less dishonest.

Where are you in every thread about studying from frat backlogs of exams??? I swear I'm in a very small minority sharing this view, both on SDN and at my school

To OP, aren't homeworks only going to be a small part of your grade compared to midterm and final exams? If I were you I'd try to get a copy of a key, then anonymously email it to the prof letting them know it's circulating.

 

[DesitnationMD]

If students are using materials that are not available to all students and are not authorized by use by the professor, the professor may charge the students using the material with academic dishonesty. Engaging in academic dishonesty and needing to report an institutional action based on that behavior hurts applicants who are otherwise strong. Saying that the professor was lazy and everyone was doing it does not make it less dishonest.

therein lies the rub, right? Plenty of material may be available to some students and not others ($, computers, tutors, extra books etc...) The key is if the professor has ever made any comments or rules specifically regarding previous homework or exam material. Lazy or not, if there is no policy, I would contend the students who are doing it are not being dishonest. OP can you say whether the prof has ever made comments about it? I would expect the OP to have included a nugget like that in their post if it was the case.

 

[efle]

therein lies the rub, right? Plenty of material may be available to some students and not others ($, computers, tutors, extra books etc...) The key is if the professor has ever made any comments or rules specifically regarding previous homework or exam material. Lazy or not, if there is no policy, I would contend the students who are doing it are not being dishonest. OP can you say whether the prof has ever made comments about it? I would expect the OP to have included a nugget like that in their post if it was the case.

Universities usually will provide or require students to have materials like computers for classes that need them. Tutors aren't additional material, they're someone to study with on the material everyone has. Many/most universities have a general statement at the end of their honor code that says "any other acts which are deemed to constitute academic dishonesty /integrity violations" so the prof doesn't have to explicitly say all the off-limits things. Eg they might allow people to see exam keys after the exam at office hours, and don't have to outright say "no cellphone pictures" in order for someone who sneaks pictures to get in trouble.

 

[AlfonsTheGuru]

Please do not cheat. There is no way to spin it if you cheat, are caught, and get an institutional action. GAME OVER.

Right on the point. Earning a B is better than the risk of ruining your academic career.

 

[DesitnationMD]

Universities usually will provide or require students to have materials like computers for classes that need them. Tutors aren't additional material, they're someone to study with on the material everyone has. Many/most universities have a general statement at the end of their honor code that says "any other acts which are deemed to constitute academic dishonesty /integrity violations" so the prof doesn't have to explicitly say all the off-limits things. Eg they might allow people to see exam keys after the exam at office hours, and don't have to outright say "no cellphone pictures" in order for someone who sneaks pictures to get in trouble.

yes those are obvious examples. and a tutor can bring in materials, books, study guides, trick other students don't have. the point is schools cannot control the amount of information students have at their disposal. they can state at the outset what is or isnt allowed.

to me, a professor who hands back homework, with full answer keys, and then changes NOTHING about the homework semester to semester, knows what they are doing. in my udnergrad we got a speech before every semester in most classes outlining what is/is not allowed for exams. usually it was even on the syllabus. it seems to me if the prof was worried about people sharing old material they would have addressed it, not hidden behind vague agreements the school can use to apply broadly and possible unfairly.

we are talking about THIS class, with THESE details. I say ask the professor about the previous keys, I find it very hard to belvie they did NOT anticipate this, yet they chose to never say anything, to any class ever. According to OP this seems to have been going on for a while, with previous classes doing it. If this is new, that's different. What I am saying is with the details as they are now, I find it very hard to make a case that these students are flagrantly cheating or being academically dishonest


@acetylmandarin care to fill in some blanks for us?

 

[efle]

yes those are obvious examples. and a tutor can bring in materials, books, study guides, trick other students don't have. the point is schools cannot control the amount of information students have at their disposal.

That's not the same as having special access to course material others don't.

to me, a professor who hands back homework, with full answer keys, and then changes NOTHING about the homework semester to semester, knows what they are doing. in my udnergrad we got a speech before every semester in most classes outlining what is/is not allowed for exams. usually it was even on the syllabus. it seems to me if the prof was worried about people sharing old material they would have addressed it, not hidden behind vague agreements the school can use to apply broadly and possible unfairly.

Sure, and a professor that lets students sit right next to each other probably knows some will peek at their neighbor. This makes the prof apathetic/lazy, but doesn't excuse the students for peeking. It doesn't seem outrageous or unfair to apply the general clause. Did you have special access to course material from a source other than the instructor, that gives advantage over students without access to that material? Open and shut.

 

[DesitnationMD]

That's not the same as having special access to course material others don't.


Sure, and a professor that lets students sit right next to each other probably knows some will peek at their neighbor. This makes the prof apathetic/lazy, but doesn't excuse the students for peeking. It doesn't seem outrageous or unfair to apply the general clause. Did you have special access to course material from a source other than the instructor, that gives advantage over students without access to that material? Open and shut.

By that logic I can use the internet to find a great study resource related to the class, perhaps one even used by the prof themsevles to design their homeowrk or tests, freely available online. Or maybe I find practice test material that other people did not find. Could they have, maybe. I know have an advantage, via material NOT obtained by the professor, that gives me an advantage over others. Furthermore, in the OPs example, the information IS from the professor, directly. How is this access any more special than finding a good online resource that corresponds to your course? Apparently its well known, you just have to find it or ask for it. How about abusing adderall to study more effectively than others who do nto have access to it is that cheating?

what if the professor posts the homework solutions on a bulletin board every semester, and then takes it down when the class is over. If a student looks at it befroe they take the class, knowing the prof just reuses the same homework, are they a cheater? maybe not all kids noticed the bulletin board, or heard that the prof just reuses homework. lazy student, sure. Shortchanging themselves, prolly. Are they cheaters to you?

Not that I disagree with you, I just cringe at the rush to determine things to be so black and white. A god general rule of thumb I use is if it feels weird or uncomfortable, don't do it, just to be safe. That does not mean everything that fulls under that category is de facto cheating or academic dishonesty. I guess you would say the the students in OPs class who have access to old homework are cheaters. i woudl say that ENTIRELY depends on the rules of the class and the desires of the professor. Eve you admit there are degrees to material used. ocne you make the leap to accusing someone of cheating, you better have some clear criteria to back that up. Peeking during an exam at someone elses work, duh, using material from the class itself, which the prof knowingly gives back, with no requests to destroy or take back (lots of my prof took back exams after we viewed them so they COULD reuse them) to study, not so clear, at least not until i know what the prof requested and how the homework as obtained.

Some professors allow 1 single side page of notes to be used in exam (physics major here). Some kids are able to cram 4-6 pages of legible material onto the 1 allowed formula sheet. Does it violate the rules? Nope. Would it be considered cheating? Would that not be up to the professor to state or decide.

I reserve my judgement until I find out what the professor has stated or set forth in their class. I do not want to judge others so harshly without knowing what was/ was not allowed.

 

[deleted647690]

Are there any in-class tests to level the playing field?

this is an obvious statement that we all agree with i hope and shouldn't really need stating.

Yes, there are exams. However, the homework assignments have a significant impact upon our overall grade.

however, the situation OP stated is not one of what many would think of as cheating. Here you have a professor, who, if i am reading correctly, uses the SAME homework, hands them BACK and PROVIDES ANWER KEYS to the class, and then DOESNT EVEN CHANGE the answer keys. whats the cheating in studying off an old homework if the PROF is handing them back? did the prof ask the class nto to share? if not, i'd say its a very lazy prof and, again, competition donig what it does.

LizzyM, how would you weigh in on THIS situation that the op seems to be describing?

I agree. People have connections to friends who took the class before, and they send them files with answer keys. There are a select few people who seem to have access to these keys. It seems like on every homework assignment, most people try to go to those who they know have the answers.

Another part of this that makes me angry is that I've heard that some people with the keys sometimes use them as leverage to get things out of others, such as answers for other classes.

Where are you in every thread about studying from frat backlogs of exams??? I swear I'm in a very small minority sharing this view, both on SDN and at my school

To OP, aren't homeworks only going to be a small part of your grade compared to midterm and final exams? If I were you I'd try to get a copy of a key, then anonymously email it to the prof letting them know it's circulating.

The homeworks are a large portion of our grade.

therein lies the rub, right? Plenty of material may be available to some students and not others ($, computers, tutors, extra books etc...) The key is if the professor has ever made any comments or rules specifically regarding previous homework or exam material. Lazy or not, if there is no policy, I would contend the students who are doing it are not being dishonest. OP can you say whether the prof has ever made comments about it? I would expect the OP to have included a nugget like that in their post if it was the case.

I've never heard the professor make comments about keys. I think some of the TAs know though.

yes those are obvious examples. and a tutor can bring in materials, books, study guides, trick other students don't have. the point is schools cannot control the amount of information students have at their disposal. they can state at the outset what is or isnt allowed.

to me, a professor who hands back homework, with full answer keys, and then changes NOTHING about the homework semester to semester, knows what they are doing. in my udnergrad we got a speech before every semester in most classes outlining what is/is not allowed for exams. usually it was even on the syllabus. it seems to me if the prof was worried about people sharing old material they would have addressed it, not hidden behind vague agreements the school can use to apply broadly and possible unfairly.

we are talking about THIS class, with THESE details. I say ask the professor about the previous keys, I find it very hard to belvie they did NOT anticipate this, yet they chose to never say anything, to any class ever. According to OP this seems to have been going on for a while, with previous classes doing it. If this is new, that's different. What I am saying is with the details as they are now, I find it very hard to make a case that these students are flagrantly cheating or being academically dishonest


@acetylmandarin care to fill in some blanks for us?

I guess the professor does realize it. Some of the homework assignments are changed slightly, some are not. I suppose he doesn't really care and hopes that we choose not to use the old keys.

 

[DesitnationMD]

I agree....

I guess the professor does realize it. Some of the homework assignments are changed slightly, some are not. I suppose he doesn't really care and hopes that we choose not to use the old keys.

That's all you need to know. Keep not using them and tell a TA or the prof. Do it anonymously if you feel squeamish.

 

[efle]

By that logic I can use the internet to find a great study resource related to the class, perhaps one even used by the prof themsevles to design their homeowrk or tests, freely available online. Or maybe I find practice test material that other people did not find. Could they have, maybe. I know have an advantage, via material NOT obtained by the professor, that gives me an advantage over others. Furthermore, in the OPs example, the information IS from the professor, directly. How is this access any more special than finding a good online resource that corresponds to your course? Apparently its well known, you just have to find it or ask for it. How about abusing adderall to study more effectively than others who do nto have access to it is that cheating?

what if the professor posts the homework solutions on a bulletin board every semester, and then takes it down when the class is over. If a student looks at it befroe they take the class, knowing the prof just reuses the same homework, are they a cheater? maybe not all kids noticed the bulletin board, or heard that the prof just reuses homework. lazy student, sure. Shortchanging themselves, prolly. Are they cheaters to you?

Not that I disagree with you, I just cringe at the rush to determine things to be so black and white. A god general rule of thumb I use is if it feels weird or uncomfortable, don't do it, just to be safe. That does not mean everything that fulls under that category is de facto cheating or academic dishonesty. I guess you would say the the students in OPs class who have access to old homework are cheaters. i woudl say that ENTIRELY depends on the rules of the class and the desires of the professor. Eve you admit there are degrees to material used. ocne you make the leap to accusing someone of cheating, you better have some clear criteria to back that up. Peeking during an exam at someone elses work, duh, using material from the class itself, which the prof knowingly gives back, with no requests to destroy or take back (lots of my prof took back exams after we viewed them so they COULD reuse them) to study, not so clear, at least not until i know what the prof requested and how the homework as obtained.

Some professors allow 1 single side page of notes to be used in exam (physics major here). Some kids are able to cram 4-6 pages of legible material onto the 1 allowed formula sheet. Does it violate the rules? Nope. Would it be considered cheating? Would that not be up to the professor to state or decide.

I reserve my judgement until I find out what the professor has stated or set forth in their class. I do not want to judge others so harshly without knowing what was/ was not allowed.

The difference there is that you don't know the material to be course material/what the prof is using when you seek it out to study. If you had a friend of yours TAing who tipped you off that the prof was writing the exam based on practice problems from Website X and you then went and studied all of them, it'd be cheating.

I consider study drugs unethical from a different line of reasoning.

Does every student know the exams can be previewed the prior year, or do you have to be specially privy somehow? And are you allowed to take a picture or copy it? Can't imagine it would help you a whole lot to glance at a bunch of stuff you don't yet understand a year ahead of time.

I appreciate the effort to find grey area scenarios!

 

[deleted647690]

It's kind of like that book, Everyone Poops, except, Everyone Cheats

 

[Ad2b]

Yes, it happens everywhere. I was stunned when my very favorite professor of all time had a class full of these peeps. Thing is, those kids DID do better than me with the assigned homework stuff, and I got points deducted. They may very well have ended up with a better final grade than me.

BUT (and it's a biggie)...

the individual sits on the adcom for the university... he knows me well... who do YOU think is getting an LOR and who is not?

Do your best to be the best you, you can be. Get to know the professor if its a class you like and would like an LOR. Don't worry about them. Karma has a funny way of working things out.

~coming to you from one of the ultra-non-trads who has seen a lot 🙂

 

[Lucca]

The difference there is that you don't know the material to be course material/what the prof is using when you seek it out to study. If you had a friend of yours TAing who tipped you off that the prof was writing the exam based on practice problems from Website X and you then went and studied all of them, it'd be cheating.

I consider study drugs unethical from a different line of reasoning.

Does every student know the exams can be previewed the prior year, or do you have to be specially privy somehow? And are you allowed to take a picture or copy it? Can't imagine it would help you a whole lot to glance at a bunch of stuff you don't yet understand a year ahead of time.

I appreciate the effort to find grey area scenarios!

Interested to hear why you think study drugs are unethical. I agree with you, but I'd like to see your reasoning.

 

[Doudline]

In all likelihood, the professor already knows the answers are circulating, and doesn't care. Do you think no one has told him over the years?

Take it up to him once. If the situation doesn't change for the next exam or test, take it to the department's dean or to the ombudsman.

 

[El-Rami]

The OP never said anything about the professor giving back tests/answer keys. The students are likely acquiring answer keys they were never supposed to get in the first place and then passing them on to other students.

Regarding the issue of professors giving back exams/answer keys to students and letting them keep it, the problem is this is really a gray area. In many cases, professors might acknowledge that there are old exams/keys floating around and permit students (or even encourage them) to use them. These professors may make no effort to make sure that everyone has the same resources in order to ensure that it is fair for everybody, so students have to get them from their peers. In other cases, professors will make old exams/keys available to everyone in order to make it fair. Yet in other cases there are professors who explicitly state that it is not permitted and that old exams should be returned/only viewed during office hours.

Is it cheating in the aforementioned examples above? No, not when there is policy that permits it, but it is most definitely academic dishonesty when the professor (or university) has policies that explicitly forbid it. One can rail against said policies by arguing that they are unfair to students who don't know the right people, but if it's allowed, then it's allowed.

The #1 thing anybody should do in this situation is just to ask the professor if it's allowed. If they say 'yes,' well there you go. If they say 'no,' then you know that you cannot use them, and you are ethically bound to report people who you know do use them.

 

[italiancowgirl]

Everyone is fighting over what we think is cheating which actually doesn't matter at all. Many actions from borderline to blatant cheating can be construed as such and will ruin your future. If a teacher or dean feels you cheated, it really doesn't matter what you or I think on the sliding spectrum. Don't go near anything that is gray zone, don't risk sniffing around it, you don't get to say you didn't inhale. I would support informing the prof (anony if that is easier) and than doing your best to learn and build a strong relationship with the prof so you are successful now and later. GL and sorry, this first time swimming in cheaters is always unpleasant (well I mean it doesn't get more pleasant but you get a thicker skin).

 

[efle]

Interested to hear why you think study drugs are unethical. I agree with you, but I'd like to see your reasoning.

From one of the adderall threads

 

[GrapesofRath]

From one of the adderall threads

Im pretty likely to disagree with you on this, which is fine but Im interested in seeing if I understand your logic as you are pretty passionate about this. In other words, not doing this to debate and argue the merits of your view just to understand what your view is. Basically this is what it sounds like you believe:

Adderall, extra time on the MCAT etc are things that give certain people an unfair advantage and dont really level the playing field. The goal is to find the most talented people under standardized conditions/circumstances, not to adjust conditions to make it easier for some with disabilities.

I noticed in that thread you said "adderall without prescription". So it sounds like you dont have a problem with those who are given a prescription using it? IF so, then this is basically a determination made by docs and psychs as to who this is an unfair advantage and who it isnt? On an directly related side note while Im doing this, if I remember correctly in a thread a while back about IAs you had said that if you were accused of an IA that you knew you didnt do at all you would be willing to strongly consider not reporting it/deny it?(I can link you the thread if your interested)

Feel free to correct me if I have it wrong, elaborate, explain your reasoning more etc(espec if Im wrong about the part about hiding an incorrect IA). You can PM if you think itll be easier to talk about this more honestly.

As for the OP all Ill say is this, this isnt about ethics it's about weighing the pros and cons which is what every decision is about.

If in fact your school deems this as cheating, you know the consequences. Zero in the class, an IA or even an expulsion at the private schools. And for the potential reward, you know about hte grade boost. There is a decent chance though you are inflating the degree to which the teacher just recycles everything and now dependent those who are doing well on the class on it are etc.

As with everything in life you weigh the pros and cons and you make a decision you can live with the rest of your life. In this case, IMHO I dont see how anybody can say if this is cheating the potential consequence of an IA that will affect your career goals tremendously vs the potential consequence of a single B or even god forbid an F compare even if the odds of getting caught are low(ie <10%). Im a pretty forgiving person in many ways on many things. But it's a good bit harder to overlook and magically forgive when somebody knows going in the real consequences that exist in what they are considering yet still do it anyway.

 

[Sardinia]

@acetylmandarin My advice generally follows @NotaCop 's statement, since it's hard to appreciate it without experiencing it. I pursued biochemistry as an undergraduate despite going through a magnet high school program where I took around a college year's worth of US/EU history and politics (AP baby). After finishing the program, I was disgusted by graft and corruption, I didn't want to study another four years of it in college. I was in your shoes when I saw how much cheating went on in our Chemistry classes. Therefore, let me tell you that after some time you realize that the issue is systemic because ethical compliance is marginalized in lieu of performance results.

I suggest enrolling to the free edition of the Wall Street Journal and reviewing some articles on Mylan's tax inversion or if you're interested in developing a broader knowledge base looking at the Libor rigging scandal, the London Whale, or HSBC's money laundering which are all issues that have a common motif even in a field like medicine. As much as I understand that you perceive this to be an issue with the students who are cheating and how the institution handles it, what you need to grasp is that all systems can be exposed to be "fatally flawed." When you understand this and you come to terms with it, you realize that the only impact you can have is to be the variable input.

If there's any field to enter that makes you feel riddled by unfair or hard treatment, then it would be medicine. It's precisely due to these factors that medical schools make an attempt to select the exceptional as not everyone is cut off for the rigor of the field. Several of my professors told me varying reasons aside from academic rigor why they knew that medicine would be a bad fit for them. Academics is merely one part of the jig saw and over focusing on cheating blocks you from seeing the more important issues that administrators see when they evaluate students for admissions. In my humble opinion.

On the topic of amphetamine use, a rather sad case: http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/03/us/concerns-about-adhd-practices-and-amphetamine-addiction.html?_r=0

 

[efle]

So it sounds like you dont have a problem with those who are given a prescription using it?

As I said in the link, I don't care about whether it is prescribed or not ("fair" or not). I only care if it is an accurate representation of your abilities down the line. If you are going to continue using adderall throughout your life, then it's fine to use it in college, regardless of whether it is prescribed or bought at either time.

Someone who buys in college, then gets a script for the rest of their life.
Someone who buys their entire life.
Someone who has a script their entire life.

All of these are the same to me, and fine to be using. The only cases that I think are unethical are using it in college if you'll be ceasing use after.

if I remember correctly in a thread a while back about IAs you had said that if you were accused of an IA that you knew you didnt do at all you would be willing to not report it/deny it?

I don't recall the thread, but this does sound like something I'd say. If someone accused me of cheating because I aced a test, for example, and the ethics board agreed with them, I'd have no moral qualms hiding it (though I might still report it out of caution in case the false conviction is found later). To me, the best case for this process is to give the judges the best access to the truth, not show them what is official or "fairest".

 

[GrapesofRath]

If you are going to continue using adderall throughout your life, then it's fine to use it in college, regardless of whether it is prescribed or bought at either time.

All of that was pretty much what I was looking for thanks

Two quick things to think about a little

1) In response to what I quoted, I think many people who use it in college plan to use it well later on for their life because it has such a positive effect. I think once people get hooked, they plan to use it forever. It's just the effects tend to fade over time due to tolerance amongst other things.

2) I also think alot of people who need extended time on the MCAT will use that same argument you used to hide a bull**** IA of "Im interested in what's the best access to the truth" not what's "officially correct" in that they think extra time in their case is access to the "real truth" about them and their capabilities. To them, the MCAT isnt representative of what real medicine is like in that the MCAT tests in skills specifically they are hindered by without extra time in a way medicine wont(ie you wont need to spend 2X time to get the main points of reading a patient report or to talk to and diagnose a patient as you would on say an essay about Nietzhe's view on relativity or how the effect of Kisspeptin on GnRH secretion in overweight mice was tested and the limitations of the study like the MCAT asks). Whether reasonable or not, I think that's what many who need extra time would argue.

 

[efle]

1) I think many people who use it in college plan to use it well later on for their life because it has such a positive effect. I think once people get hooked, they plan to use it forever. It's just the effects tend to fade over time due to tolerance amongst other things.

I'd be interested to see how prevalent study drugs are at each level of the process. Med school maybe even more than college? Probably less and less after that.

2) I also think alot of people who need extended time on the MCAT will use that same argument you used to hide a bull**** IA of "Im interested in what's the best access to the truth" not what's "officially correct" in that they think extra time in their case is access to the "real truth" about them and their capabilities. To them, the MCAT isnt representative of what real medicine is like in that the MCAT tests in skills specifically they are hindered by without extra time in a way medicine wont(ie you wont need to spend 2X time to get the main points of reading a patient report or to talk to and diagnose a patient as you would on say an essay about Nietzhe's view on relativity or the effect of Kisspeptin on GnRH secretion in overweight mice like the MCAT asks)

That would be a novel argument for me to hear, usually what I see is "this is leveling the playing field" not "the MCAT is so different from medical school/practice that it is not dishonest to conceal concentration problems." Is it true that the effects of an attentional disability are only manifest with schoolwork and exam type stuff? I figured it was cognition in general, so that you're likely to zone out or go slowly or miss details etc, when reading a chart or drug overview just as much as looking at a figure and passage from a biomed paper for the MCAT.