A Freshman's Last Questions...

[RuralPhysician8]

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Ok, so I have been reading these forums often and posting where ever I felt I could be of help and I have learned a lot about the overall process of undergraduate to professional graduate school; however, there are a few things I could use some help understanding...

1. I understand that a post-bac is a 1-2 year post bachelor's degree program that often leads to another bachelor's, but what exactly is an SMP?

2. I have been getting a lot of "no" when it comes to asking for a shadowing position. I have found three offices within walking distance of my college so my plan is to email/mail them...
- My name is X, I am a pre-med from X college and I am interested in shadowing you. I have attached my resume to this email/letter to better aid you in making the decision and I will be calling your office on X date at X time to hear your decision.

^Good idea?

3. In addition to the MCAT, I would also like to take the GRE. When would be the preferred time to take the latter?

4. I have arrived at somewhat of a conundrum as to what I want my final career to be. MD/DO or DVM? Yes, I know, they are two very different branches of medicine. I was a volunteer for seven years at an exotic pet store (5th grade-12th) and I worked with rehabilitating a lot of ill snakes and other reptiles. Up until now, I believed it to have just been a hobby as I am also an avid snake keeper, but having a smaller workload this summer has allowed me to spend more time with my snakes; in addition to, I had a friend ask me to rehabilitate one of his specimens and I obliged. Those factors reminded me how much I enjoyed helping exotic fauna and now it is getting a little difficult coming to terms with the fact that in medical school and residency (I know vet school is just as much a commitment, but my activities would fit into my education) I will be lucky to have enough time to keep proper husbandry of my companions and gain more experience with other exotics. The other end of the problem is that I am still deeply interested in human medicine, I still enjoy explaining and researching the various conditions members of my family have and other diseases, which I find slightly more interesting than the pathology behind veterinary medicine. To put it simply, I like the idea of aiding my community by directly maintaining homeostasis in each individual person.
So any thoughts on how I should go about settling this issue? Besides shadowing, which is an obvious must.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[SN12357]

2. I have been getting a lot of "no" when it comes to asking for a shadowing position. I have found three offices within walking distance of my college so my plan is to email/mail them...
- My name is X, I am a pre-med from X college and I am interested in shadowing you. I have attached my resume to this email/letter to better aid you in making the decision and I will be calling your office on X date at X time to hear your decision.

I really think professional communication should be taught in high school. I hope you haven't sent this email yet, because it's pushy and entitled and will yield you no success.

You are asking for a favor. You want to ask that favor and present yourself in a way that minimizes inconvenience to the person you need the favor from. Do not say you are going to call them. To busy professionals, it's basically a threat to their precious, precious time.

Your first sentence is fine but you will want to add some fluff indicating why you want to shadow THEM, specifcally, probably mentioning their specialty. Do attach your resume but say nothing beyond 'my resume is attached'. ASK THEM IF THEY ARE WILLING TO HAVE YOU SHADOW THEM, DON'T SAY YOU'RE GOING TO CALL TO FIND OUT THEIR DECISION. And for god's sake, THANK THEM. Thank them for even considering it.

I'm giving you this advice because you're a freshman and still in the window when it's ok to not know these things yet. But learn it quick because otherwise you'll sabotage yourself over and over again in professional communication and never understand why.

 

[RuralPhysician8]

I really think professional communication should be taught in high school. I hope you haven't sent this email yet, because it's pushy and entitled and will yield you no success.

You are asking for a favor. You want to ask that favor and present yourself in a way that minimizes inconvenience to the person you need the favor from. Do not say you are going to call them. To busy professionals, it's basically a threat to their precious, precious time.

Your first sentence is fine but you will want to add some fluff indicating why you want to shadow THEM, specifcally, probably mentioning their specialty. Do attach your resume but say nothing beyond 'my resume is attached'. ASK THEM IF THEY ARE WILLING TO HAVE YOU SHADOW THEM, DON'T SAY YOU'RE GOING TO CALL TO FIND OUT THEIR DECISION. And for god's sake, THANK THEM. Thank them for even considering it.

I'm giving you this advice because you're a freshman and still in the window when it's ok to not know these things yet. But learn it quick because otherwise you'll sabotage yourself over and over again in professional communication and never understand why.

Thank you, of course I was going to add thank you in the letter. I just put the primary message in my first post. So you are saying my message should read...
"I am a premedical student at X institution and I would like to have the privilege to shadow you. I have attached my resume . "Fluff".

Thank you for your time,
Name"?
I ironically got the original approach from a guide to job hunting handbook, which is apparently worthless now. Thanks again.

 

[SN12357]

Thank you, of course I was going to add thank you in the letter. I just put the primary message in my first post. So you are saying my message should read...
"I am a premedical student at X institution and I would like to have the privilege to shadow you. I have attached my resume . "Fluff".

Thank you for your time,
Name"?
I ironically got the original approach from a guide to job hunting handbook, which is apparently worthless now. Thanks again.

Yes, much better!

Be very, very careful with job hunting handbooks. Many of them advocate really bad, pushy, 'salesman'-like strategies that people do not appreciate! For good job hunting (and other general, good professional behavior) advice, read the archives at askamanager.org.

If you hear nothing in reply to the email (give it at least a week), it may be worth one polite phone call. But definitely don't ever 'threaten' to call in a prior email.

 

[RuralPhysician8]

Yes, much better!

Be very, very careful with job hunting handbooks. Many of them advocate really bad, pushy, 'salesman'-like strategies that people do not appreciate! For good job hunting (and other general, good professional behavior) advice, read the archives at askamanager.org.

If you hear nothing in reply to the email (give it at least a week), it may be worth one polite phone call. But definitely don't ever 'threaten' to call in a prior email.

Thanks for the ask manager tip, plus shadowing advice.

 

[huskerdye]

1. I understand that a post-bac is a 1-2 year post bachelor's degree program that often leads to another bachelor's, but what exactly is an SMP?

Special master program---something you could do to help strengthen a medical school application

2. I have been getting a lot of "no" when it comes to asking for a shadowing position. I have found three offices within walking distance of my college so my plan is to email/mail them...
- My name is X, I am a pre-med from X college and I am interested in shadowing you. I have attached my resume to this email/letter to better aid you in making the decision and I will be calling your office on X date at X time to hear your decision.

You could also try looking at regional hospitals in your area. Try going to their websites and search for a 'shadowing' page or something along those lines... A lot of hospitals (at least when I was in college) would allow college students to shadow various physicians.

3. In addition to the MCAT, I would also like to take the GRE. When would be the preferred time to take the latter?

Hmmm.. I'm not sure how I would do this... I didn't want to study at all after I took the MCAT (end of junior year) so that one kind of depends on what you think is more important.

4. I have arrived at somewhat of a conundrum as to what I want my final career to be. MD/DO or DVM?

For MD/DO, see how your GPA/MCAT looks when the time to apply comes closer..

MD vs DVM, a lot of the required classes should be the same.. Research the requirements that medical schools and vet schools have and plan your college schedule accordingly (in terms of what classes you are taking).

You'll end up figuring out what you want to do 🙂 you still have plenty of time to decide! Good luck!

 

[Euxox]

1. I understand that a post-bac is a 1-2 year post bachelor's degree program that often leads to another bachelor's, but what exactly is an SMP?

The Official Guide to Special Masters Programs

2. I have been getting a lot of "no" when it comes to asking for a shadowing position. I have found three offices within walking distance of my college so my plan is to email/mail them...
- My name is X, I am a pre-med from X college and I am interested in shadowing you. I have attached my resume to this email/letter to better aid you in making the decision and I will be calling your office on X date at X time to hear your decision.

First off, I agree with what SN said. That email sounds way too pushy and you should rephrase it. Second, have you been contacting teaching hospitals or private practices? Doctors at teaching hospitals are, in my experience, much more likely to say yes because teaching is already part of their job description.*

*Yes, I know that not all doctors at teaching hospitals actually teach, but there will be some, at least.

3. In addition to the MCAT, I would also like to take the GRE. When would be the preferred time to take the latter?

It all depends on your schedule. Take it late enough in your college career that you are prepared, but early enough that you have your score back in time to apply for colleges. I know that you can see an estimate of your score on the GRE immediately after completing the exam, but I think that official scores are not ready until some time after the test date.

4. I have arrived at somewhat of a conundrum as to what I want my final career to be. MD/DO or DVM? Yes, I know, they are two very different branches of medicine. I was a volunteer for seven years at an exotic pet store (5th grade-12th) and I worked with rehabilitating a lot of ill snakes and other reptiles. Up until now, I believed it to have just been a hobby as I am also an avid snake keeper, but having a smaller workload this summer has allowed me to spend more time with my snakes; in addition to, I had a friend ask me to rehabilitate one of his specimens and I obliged. Those factors reminded me how much I enjoyed helping exotic fauna and now it is getting a little difficult coming to terms with the fact that in medical school and residency (I know vet school is just as much a commitment, but my activities would fit into my education) I will be lucky to have enough time to keep proper husbandry of my companions and gain more experience with other exotics. The other end of the problem is that I am still deeply interested in human medicine, I still enjoy explaining and researching the various conditions members of my family have and other diseases, which I find slightly more interesting than the pathology behind veterinary medicine. To put it simply, I like the idea of aiding my community by directly maintaining homeostasis in each individual person.
So any thoughts on how I should go about settling this issue? Besides shadowing, which is an obvious must.

The way you wrote things in this description makes it seem like you are much more interested in veterinary medicine. If that is the case, go for it. If you are unsure, the only way to become sure is, as you already said, to do a bit of shadowing in both fields.

 

[RuralPhysician8]

First off, I agree with what SN said. That email sounds way too pushy and you should rephrase it. Second, have you been contacting teaching hospitals or private practices? Doctors at teaching hospitals are, in my experience, much more likely to say yes because teaching is already part of their job description.*

*Yes, I know that not all doctors at teaching hospitals actually teach, but there will be some, at least.


The way you wrote things in this description makes it seem like you are much more interested in veterinary medicine. If that is the case, go for it. If you are unsure, the only way to become sure is, as you already said, to do a bit of shadowing in both fields.

I have called private practices as my primary doctor told me his hospital did not offer shadowing (it is a large teaching hospital). I am going to volunteer at another large hospital my area and I was asked on the application if there were any experiences I would like to have besides the usual patient contact and I put down, "if possible, I am interested in shadowing a physician". So I may have chance there in addition to the three offices.

On DVM vs. MD/DO, I have a strong interest in both. I love other animals and working with them; however, humans are obviously the most fascinating animals on the planet. I will admit though, DVM does look pretty attractive with the fact that beautiful Caribbean island schools are still viable and offer accelerated paths. I would also be avoiding the 2015 MCAT. I am going to shadow in both and see which area "pulls" me the most.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[bunnity]

I have called private practices as my primary doctor told me his hospital did not offer shadowing (it is a large teaching hospital). I am going to volunteer at another large hospital my area and I was asked on the application if there were any experiences I would like to have besides the usual patient contact and I put down, "if possible, I am interested in shadowing a physician". So I may have chance there in addition to the three offices.

On DVM vs. MD/DO, I have a strong interest in both. I love other animals and working with them; however, humans are obviously the most fascinating animals on the planet. I will admit though, DVM does look pretty attractive with the fact that beautiful Caribbean island schools are still viable and offer accelerated paths. I would also be avoiding the 2015 MCAT. I am going to shadow in both and see which area "pulls" me the most.

Thanks for the advice.

Seriously, don't make a huge life choice based on whether or not you have to take the MCAT! Spend some time in both fields (you'll need the hours to apply anyway) and see what really motivates you. I think you will find that the "mammal" part of the vet field is very different than the herp part - herp owners tend to be extremely knowledgeable about their pets and do their own treatments while there is a very different relationship with dog/cat/horse/bunny/bird owners... and then there is the whole food animal world which is totally different too. So you may well find vet med way more interesting or way less interesting when you get to experience some of the different career options. Come on over and read some on the pre-vet and vet forums - there is a lot of discussion about the more difficult aspects of the field (salary, student debt, new grads saturating the market) but also a ton of enthusiasm and love for vet medicine. If you search our forum there should be some threads on deciding med vs vet school.

Also, bunnies are the most fascinating animals on the planet.
Just sayin' 😛

 

[amazing tekkers]

https://www.meded.umn.edu/futuredocs/documents/The-Hand-of-a-Phenomenal-Pre-Med.pdf

Please look at page 44 in that url, it's a template letter to send to physicians you want to shadow, just enter your info

 

[RuralPhysician8]

I

Seriously, don't make a huge life choice based on whether or not you have to take the MCAT! Spend some time in both fields (you'll need the hours to apply anyway) and see what really motivates you. I think you will find that the "mammal" part of the vet field is very different than the herp part - herp owners tend to be extremely knowledgeable about their pets and do their own treatments while there is a very different relationship with dog/cat/horse/bunny/bird owners... and then there is the whole food animal world which is totally different too. So you may well find vet med way more interesting or way less interesting when you get to experience some of the different career options. Come on over and read some on the pre-vet and vet forums - there is a lot of discussion about the more difficult aspects of the field (salary, student debt, new grads saturating the market) but also a ton of enthusiasm and love for vet medicine. If you search our forum there should be some threads on deciding med vs vet school.

Also, bunnies are the most fascinating animals on the planet.
Just sayin' 😛

I was just pointing out some primary superficial traits between the two paths, I do not see the MCAT as a total deal breaker. Yeah, I have always taken care of any problems my reptiles experience; for reptiles, 8/10 times, you just need to correct an environmental factor and the animal's immune system does the rest. I have reviewed some of the Vet topics and about the only question I have is can I still expect the average starting salary of $40,000-48,000 if I immediately open my own business offering services in addition to dry goods?

Out of curiosity, what about bunnies is fascinating?

 

[dsoz]

It all depends on your schedule. Take it late enough in your college career that you are prepared, but early enough that you have your score back in time to apply for colleges. I know that you can see an estimate your score on the GRE immediately after completing the exam, but I think that official scores are not ready some time after the test date.

When/if you take the GRE, you get two parts of your score right there on the computer before you leave the room. The writing sample is the part you need to wait to get the scores for in about a month.

It is cometly unlike the MCAT where you walk out of the room not knowing how you did and having to stress for a month about your scores. It sucks.

Good luck with your decision. I really can't help you other than to follow both fields and decide which one makes you happier. Money is not everything. Quality of life and happiness is much more important.

dsoz

 

[whatever5]

In case your strategy to find someone to shadow doesn't pan out, here's what I did - I got my foot into the hospital's door by volunteering, and then after being there for a month and getting to know the doctors, ask them if you could ever shadow them before or after your shift. I've never had anyone say no. Additionally, they tend to have contacts in other specialties (so while I was an ER volunteer, I ended up getting to shadow docs in neuro and IM)

 

[bunnity]

I

I was just pointing out some primary superficial traits between the two paths, I do not see the MCAT as a total deal breaker. Yeah, I have always taken care of any problems my reptiles experience; for reptiles, 8/10 times, you just need to correct an environmental factor and the animal's immune system does the rest. I have reviewed some of the Vet topics and about the only question I have is can I still expect the average starting salary of $40,000-48,000 if I immediately open my own business offering services in addition to dry goods?

Out of curiosity, what about bunnies is fascinating?

Most people don't start their own business straight out of school because of the ridiculous debt and because of wanting mentorship for the first few years, so it's hard to say. If you did open one it would really just depend on how much money you made with the business.

If you were hired as an associate out of school, I think the numbers are around 65k for small animal (which would probably be similar for exotics, if you continue on that route) and a little lower for equine and food animal.

If you did an internship/residency you'd be looking at 20-30k for those years... an internship isn't going to really increase your salary for the rest of your career but a residency would.

My bunny obsession long preceded my medical interests but I just think it's cool how an animal that's basically the quintessential prey species is also so curious and mischievous and downright bossy. As far as medical things, their hind legs are so strong that they can break their own back. They have a crazy GI that is basically all cecum. They extract vitamins in their lower GI and then eat their poop to absorb them from the upper GI. They have a teeny little thorax but are incredible athletes. They sleep with their eyes open. I could go on and on but I think I'll be kicked out of pre-med-land!