A huge DO misconception

[DD214_DOC]

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I have noticed, in a lot of DO-related threads, that the "holistic" philosophy is usually just passed off as garbage. The typical rebuttle is, "MDs can practice holistic medicine, too". This is true, but there is a monumental difference in doing something and being trained to do something.

Sure, MDs can practice holism. But DOs are better and more effective when employing this philosophy. Why? Because that is how they are trained. Consider a few examples:

Anyone can drive an automobile, but only those who have been trained and experienced in driving are any good at it.

Anyone can be a counselor, but only those with formal training in counseling, such as clinical psychology, are effective. (and only they may legally call themselves, "psychologists")

Any physician may perform surgery, but only surgeons are any good at it.

See the trend?

 

[irish79]

You make the assumption that out of the 125 allopathic medical schools, that none of them take this holistic approach. I have a few friends at the Medical College of Wisconsin who are learning all about the biopsychosocial model and treating the whole patient--not just the disease. My friends that attend this school are always telling me about their profs stressing empathy and about going to talks stressing this issue (at AZCOM, we have never had a lecture on empathy).

Are you in medical school yet? Do you know for sure what we are taught in DO school and how it differs drastically from that of the MD's?

 

[deleted9493]

Empathy should be a part of all medical schools. After all, isn't that why we're putting in all this time to become doctors...to better humanity...to improve the health of those we come in contact with?

JKDMed is referring to a method of teaching that better prepares its students to see not only the physical state of the patient...but the environment that that patient lives in as well.


Empathy should be an underlying characteristic of all practitioners...whatever the degree may be.

 

[irish79]

You don't find it a little presumptuous of him to assume, yes ASSUME, that only DO schools have this "method of teaching that better prepares its students to see not only the physical state of the patient...but the environment that that patient lives in as well?" Unless one has researched this subject thoroughly, I think this conclusion shows a great deal of na?vet

 

[DD214_DOC]

My post was merely to counter the typical rebuttle of most anti-DO people. If you get more out of it than what I wrote, then that's your problem.

 

[irish79]

I took nothing more from your post than what you wrote. My response was merely a response to you, a rebuttal if you will...

 

[Shinken]

irish79, in your signature quote, it should be "existence." I don't think "existance" is a word.

 

[irish79]

What are you talking about?

irish79, in your signature quote, it should be "existence".

Also, when using a period with quotation marks, it should go inside the quotation marks, not outside.

 

[Runtita]

Simma down now!

 

[Shinken]

Ah yes, the beauty of using the "edit" button. You're welcome. You won't seem like a fool correcting other people's spelling mistakes while your signature had a glaring one too. Yes, I'm perfectly aware that when you edit your signature it changes it in all your posts. You're not fooling me!



Besides, what are YOU talking about? My post above is correct!

 

[deleted9493]

Generally speaking, you have to believe that it is true that DO schools place considerably more emphasis on holistic care...than their allopathic counterparts do. If you seriously believe that this is not the case, then I have a story for you about a boy named Ignoramus....
JKDmed, I believe you to be absolutely correct in your logic/conclusion. Irish79 is either really bored or hails directly from the mother country (Ireland, that is).

 

[Shinken]

I personali veliebe dat the bast mayoryti oph ostiopathyc fisishyans do engaje in hollystyk medyzyne. Yust mi persoenall ekspiriense.

 

[mcandy]

just wondering how empathy is taught? Are we talking the tools of empathy. I know it took me a long time to develop true heartfelt empathy for my patients. For a long time I felt like people brought bad things upon themselves (I am probably not conveying this idea appropriately,take it with a grain of salt)...I have a developed a new outlook with maturity, but I don't think my change in heart could have been taught. Just curious.

 

[irish79]

If you are referring to me, I never said empathy could be taught. On the contrary, I don't believe it can be. I said that the subject of empathy is always being stressed.

As for the broad sweeping generalization that all Osteopathic physicians are taught a holistic approach to medicine and allopathic physicians are not, I feel it is exactly that, a generalization--which is the true sign of an "Ignoramus." I am curious how you came to such an all-encompassing conclusion.

Do you people believe in the generalization that Osteopathic pre-meds are stupid because they generally have lower GPA's and MCAT scores? Or that Osteopathic medical students are stupid because they score much lower than allopathic medical students on the USMLE (only 69% of Osteopathic students passed the USMLE in 2001)? I think pre-allo people are wrong to think this and I think you are wrong to assume that all allopathic schools are deficient in their abilities to produce physicians who use a holistic approach.

 

[bigmuny]

I have two friends at two different MD programs, and what they are being taught is almost identical to what I am being taught with the exception of omt and different curriculum structure(i'm in class alot more than they are, which sucks). They have the same touchy-feely classes as me, and do the same"patient centered" interviews. They also have lectures on CAM the same as me. These ideas are not novel, nor are they strictly osteopathic. What do you guys think they teach at MD programs? How to be cold and insensitive? You really should talk to some MD students.

 

[deleted9493]

Generalizations are not statements of universitality. I purposefully placed "generally speaking" at the beginning of my last post so you would see (and hopefully comprehend) that I was not making an absolutist statement.

How many things in life are universally true? Not many...and nobody here assumed that "all US allopathic schools are deficient in their abilities to produce physicians who use a holistic approach."

 

[bullhorn]

Originally posted by irish79
Do you people believe in the generalization that Osteopathic pre-meds are stupid because they generally have lower GPA's and MCAT scores? Or that Osteopathic medical students are stupid because they score much lower than allopathic medical students on the USMLE (only 69% of Osteopathic students passed the USMLE in 2001)? I think pre-allo people are wrong to think this and I think you are wrong to assume that all allopathic schools are deficient in their abilities to produce physicians who use a holistic approach.

I am confused 😕

I thought osteopathic students take the COMLEX primarily and then a good deal take both. Could this 69% be just the osteopathic students that took the USMLE as opposed to passed? I have always heard that DO students did better on the USMLE than MD students (surprisingly as some pre-allo and allo students say)....

I am not necessarily disagreeing with you...just confused and looking for clarification as a premed person....

 

[bigmuny]

DO's have a 69-70% pass rate for first time test takers on step 1 vs. 90-92% for US MD students. Those who take step 2 do better though still not as good as MD students(I think only about 1/2 of those who took step 1 end up taking step 2). This info can be found on the nbme/usmle website. We, as a group, don't do better on any part of the usmle. I don't know where people get the idea that we do.

 

[VentdependenT]

This thread blows😴

 

[Shinken]

This is an "MD vs DO" thread in disguise.

 

[DD214_DOC]

If you think this is an MD vs DO thread, you're completley missing the point. I hope none of you ever have to interpret a medical chart.

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

As busy as I've been in med school, I've forgotten the fun I used to have in these petty arguments in the SDN forums...

great for a laugh now and again🙄

 

[bullhorn]

Originally posted by bigmuny
DO's have a 69-70% pass rate for first time test takers on step 1 vs. 90-92% for US MD students. Those who take step 2 do better though still not as good as MD students(I think only about 1/2 of those who took step 1 end up taking step 2). This info can be found on the nbme/usmle website. We, as a group, don't do better on any part of the usmle. I don't know where people get the idea that we do.

thanks for clarifying for me. i checked out the site and i am unclear about where the notion that do students do better than md students on the step 2 (which is what i had heard).

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

Originally posted by bigmuny
DO's have a 69-70% pass rate for first time test takers on step 1 vs. 90-92% for US MD students. Those who take step 2 do better though still not as good as MD students(I think only about 1/2 of those who took step 1 end up taking step 2). This info can be found on the nbme/usmle website. We, as a group, don't do better on any part of the usmle. I don't know where people get the idea that we do.

Part of the reason for this is that the DO students train for the COMLEX, not the USMLE. It is a different test. Since it is not taken by all DO students, the USMLE results are not representative of the same group. Also, it is usually taken with little or no break after taking the COMLEX. A good analagy would be like taking two days of MCAT and following it up with the DAT or GRE. I bet you wouldn't do as well either.

 

[Amy B]

Originally posted by WannabeDO
Part of the reason for this is that the DO students train for the COMLEX, not the USMLE. It is a different test. Since it is not taken by all DO students, the USMLE results are not representative of the same group. Also, it is usually taken with little or no break after taking the COMLEX. A good analagy would be like taking two days of MCAT and following it up with the DAT or GRE. I bet you wouldn't do as well either.

Well then, this is a bit scary to me. Since VCOM requires we take both for graduation requirements I wonder if they are going to train us to take both. Perhaps this is something I should ask them about.😱

 

[Tbonez]

KCOM has something like a 94-95% pass rate for USMLE step 1. I hear they were actually visited by members of that organization to find out why their pass rates were > those of average MD students.

 

[irish79]

Yeah, I bet they were curious what was going on at KCOM.... just kidding. I heard that same thing when I was there for my interview. I think people from AZCOM historically do fairly well on it too.

 

[Amy B]

Well maybe the higher rates at KCOM will help us since our new dean was at KCOM before she took over VCOM. Perhaps she will bring her wisdom of the boards to her new students.😎

 

[Doctor Peloncito]

Originally posted by Amy B
Well then, this is a bit scary to me. Since VCOM requires we take both for graduation requirements I wonder if they are going to train us to take both. Perhaps this is something I should ask them about.😱

Have faith in your school. You guys are required to take both tests, I'm sure you'll be adequately prepared. Most schools don't require this though. And the people who do take both tests just aren't prepared for the task. The people who are ready for it seem to do fine. Plus the kcom stat should be a little of a relief.

WBDO

Russell

 

[exmike]

Originally posted by irish79
You make the assumption that out of the 125 allopathic medical schools

There are 126 now. 😀

 

[irish79]

Are there? Has there always been 126 or did a new one just open? Thanks for the correction.

 

[exmike]

Cleveland Clinic Lerner College of Medicine will start its first class next year as an "independent" institution. It used to be a special Case Western program. They're still affiiliated.

 

[ckent]

i seriously doubt if the training at DO schools includes anything more holistic then at my MD school. What is holistic anyways? Is it taking a thorough HPI and social history and seeing how that correlates with the patient's disease process? Is it recognizing that your CHF patient is depressed and that's why he seems to be having chest pain all the time? I haven't noticed the DO residents at my school spending any more time or asking any additional questions of patients at my school, so I don't understand how you can say that you are more "holistic" and "not just treating symptoms" when DO's and MD's take the same medical history and *should* end up with the same treatment plans and prescribe the same medicines. It's silly to say that one physician is more holistic then others when they all just end up doing the same thing in practice.

 

[Goofyone]

Originally posted by ckent
i seriously doubt if the training at DO schools includes anything more holistic then at my MD school. What is holistic anyways? Is it taking a thorough HPI and social history and seeing how that correlates with the patient's disease process? Is it recognizing that your CHF patient is depressed and that's why he seems to be having chest pain all the time? I haven't noticed the DO residents at my school spending any more time or asking any additional questions of patients at my school, so I don't understand how you can say that you are more "holistic" and "not just treating symptoms" when DO's and MD's take the same medical history and *should* end up with the same treatment plans and prescribe the same medicines. It's silly to say that one physician is more holistic then others when they all just end up doing the same thing in practice.

You're absolutely right. 'Holistic' is hype. It's called doing a good social history, which all doctors should do (I'm a year 2 DO, I know what I'm talking about). I have several friends at MD schools, the curricula aren't significantly different aside from scheduling differences and OMT classes.

 

[irish79]

AMEN!

I think the difference is that many of the people who were posting for the "DO's are more holistic" are still pre-meds. Most are still unaware of what osteopathic medical school is like and how little it differs from most allopathic schools.

 

[moo]

As an MD student, I actually get quite offended when DO wannabes (and the AOA) spout this sort of rhetoric. I have nothing against DOs but everytime someone mentions that because they are a DO they are more holistic than I am (hence, by virtue of their degree, implying that they are more caring, etc.) I really get offended.

The degree doesn't make the doctor. We have had one DO give us a couple lectures this block and he was absolutely horrible. He was late (like 10 minutes) both times and didn't bother to apologize and seemed to really have an attitude. My friend last year also had a DO for a physical exam class and he was incompetent in teaching... Now would I say all DOs are like this? No! There are bad apples wherever you go and osteopathic medicine is not immune.

And don't ever tell us that we don't care about the social history, psych issues, etc. We are taught to inquire about not only diseases, but also mood swings, family issues, etc. For example, if a patient is old and is in the hospital because of a fall, we inquire about whether she has people around to take care of her. This is all a part of the review of systems. I don't think DO schools have a patent on this sort of an interview.

 

[fabiolablake]

Originally posted by moo
As an MD student, I actually get quite offended when DO wannabes (and the AOA) spout this sort of rhetoric. I have nothing against DOs but everytime someone mentions that because they are a DO they are more holistic than I am (hence, by virtue of their degree, implying that they are more caring, etc.) I really get offended.

The degree doesn't make the doctor. We have had one DO give us a couple lectures this block and he was absolutely horrible. He was late (like 10 minutes) both times and didn't bother to apologize and seemed to really have an attitude. My friend last year also had a DO for a physical exam class and he was incompetent in teaching... Now would I say all DOs are like this? No! There are bad apples wherever you go and osteopathic medicine is not immune.

And don't ever tell us that we don't care about the social history, psych issues, etc. We are taught to inquire about not only diseases, but also mood swings, family issues, etc. For example, if a patient is old and is in the hospital because of a fall, we inquire about whether she has people around to take care of her. This is all a part of the review of systems. I don't think DO schools have a patent on this sort of an interview.

moo,

You are right and I don't think DOs should go around stating that they are better than MDs. Many premed students are used to defending themselves because not as many people know what a DO is in relation to an MD. Many times we have to defend our position, but you are right about there being bad DOs too. Just because we are taking a little different path to get to the same destination doesn't make either degree better. We both work hard and it is egocentric to think we are better than MDs. I always tell people when they ask, that there are good MDs and bad MDs, that goes the same for DOs. Sorry if you were offended by our comments, they should be stated in a better fashion. Take care.

Blake

 

[ganglion]

Originally posted by moo
As an MD student, I actually get quite offended when DO wannabes (and the AOA) spout this sort of rhetoric. I have nothing against DOs but everytime someone mentions that because they are a DO they are more holistic than I am (hence, by virtue of their degree, implying that they are more caring, etc.) I really get offended.

The degree doesn't make the doctor. We have had one DO give us a couple lectures this block and he was absolutely horrible. He was late (like 10 minutes) both times and didn't bother to apologize and seemed to really have an attitude. My friend last year also had a DO for a physical exam class and he was incompetent in teaching... Now would I say all DOs are like this? No! There are bad apples wherever you go and osteopathic medicine is not immune.

And don't ever tell us that we don't care about the social history, psych issues, etc. We are taught to inquire about not only diseases, but also mood swings, family issues, etc. For example, if a patient is old and is in the hospital because of a fall, we inquire about whether she has people around to take care of her. This is all a part of the review of systems. I don't think DO schools have a patent on this sort of an interview.

You have certainly "hit the nail on the head". Unfortunately it will be a long time coming before the idea of one party being more holistic than another is removed from mainstream thought. The "holistic" gimmick was a great selling tool and still is, I wonder how long it will take to dissapate.

 

[DD214_DOC]

When every MD school teaches its students this way. A few MD schools that teach their students this "holistic" way of medicine doesn't mean they all do.

 

[moo]

YOu think a "few" MD schools teach this way? Man, you've got a lot to learn about medical education.

I'm not going to argue with you. But take a hint from your DO colleagues that are actually in medical school and in practice. There's not a hell of a whole lot of difference between the ways we practice medicine.

You can continue to buy into this AOA nonsense. I won't try to convince you otherwise because it's pointless.

Good night.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Have you examined the method of teaching at every MD school in the U.S.? I was simply pointing out the fact that nobody can make this assumption based upon their collective experiences at a few MD schools. Maybe they all do teach the same holistic methodology, but I don't know -- I haven't been a student at every medical school, and neither have you.

I hope you comprehend medical charts better than forum posts, otherwise your patients will be in serious trouble.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

please stop with this whole...blah blah blah stuff...it's getting old.

 

[NDESTRUKT]

no one honestly cares except to get their point across and have someone say "yeah ok, i admit, you're right" and no one's gonna do that anyway, so...yeah...no more dissing.

refrain from offending other people and refrain from being offended by other people's posts

 

[Teufelhunden]

This is all a bunch of crap. A bunch of my professors as an MS1 and MS2 were MDs. Now, as an MS3, almost half my attendings are MDs. If it wasn't for the initials on the lab coats, I'd never know the freaking difference. That's because, there is no difference.

Is a DO surgeon going to perform a Whipple and different than an MD? Is an MD internist going to treat DKA differently than a DO? Maybe...maybe in a family practice setting a small, small percentage of DOs might do a little OMT on some patients....wow...there's your big difference.

Let's be honest, the only real difference between DOs and MDs is that ON AVERAGE, MDs did a little better on MCATs and college GPAs. No one can deny that in general, this is the case. I have no qualms in admitting this. Thing is...in the end...years down the road when we're all in practice...who freaking cares that Dr. Smith got a B in Organic Chem II and Dr. Jones got an A?

Who gives a sh|t that Dr. Smith got a 9 on his verbal on the MCAT, and Dr. Jones got an 11? How the **** is that gonna bear on any medical outcome?

Y'all "feeling me" on this?

God...won't this debate EVER go away?

 

[Dr JPH]

Originally posted by Teufelhunden


God...won't this debate EVER go away?

No. That's why it's best to stay out of it.

 

[bobo]

For once I agree with JPH. This thread is MD vs DO in disguise - I think, because there is so much garbage here that I can't bother with reading it all.

This JKD character is obviously a tool, another clueless pre-med spouting worthless claptrap all over this board. Give it a rest. How holistic someone is depends on their own personal beliefs, not some ridiculous class they took or words of wisdom some doc spouted forth your second year of medical school when you are busy studying neuroanatomy. Let it rest.

 

[ganglion]

Originally posted by bobo
For once I agree with JPH. This thread is MD vs DO in disguise - I think, because there is so much garbage here that I can't bother with reading it all.

This JKD character is obviously a tool, another clueless pre-med spouting worthless claptrap all over this board. Give it a rest. How holistic someone is depends on their own personal beliefs, not some ridiculous class they took or words of wisdom some doc spouted forth your second year of medical school when you are busy studying neuroanatomy. Let it rest.

 

[DD214_DOC]

Originally posted by bobo
For once I agree with JPH. This thread is MD vs DO in disguise - I think, because there is so much garbage here that I can't bother with reading it all.

This JKD character is obviously a tool, another clueless pre-med spouting worthless claptrap all over this board. Give it a rest. How holistic someone is depends on their own personal beliefs, not some ridiculous class they took or words of wisdom some doc spouted forth your second year of medical school when you are busy studying neuroanatomy. Let it rest.

If you read the entire thread, then maybe you would have an idea what is actually going on here. The argument isn't "who is more holisic than whom" but the differences in assuming a holistic philosophy and being taught to practice a holistic philosophy. You guys wanted a DO vs MD thread and you turned it into one. Shame on you.

If you think there's no difference in doing something and being taught how to do something, then you're the tool. Perhaps you would like to offer up some evidence in this discussion, rather than avoiding the issue by attacking its existence?

 

[Shinken]

If you think there's no difference in doing something and being taught how to do something, then you're the tool. Perhaps you would like to offer up some evidence in this discussion, rather than avoiding the issue by attacking its existence?

How's this (straight from the allopathic American College of Physicians). I guess not only does JKDMed have a point, but some people owe him an apology.

http://www.acponline.org/journals/news/nov03/communication.htm

 

[bobo]

JKD you are such a Cock.