A/I interview season

[dmcg]

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Looking to plan ahead for my schedule in the fall. I know that many A/I interviews take place in September, but does anyone know how much earlier or later interviews have traditionally taken place?

Thanks in advance.

 

[AI2015apps]

I think the general interview season for A/I is September and October, with some interviews in late August. I am not sure if early November would happen or not. Are you applying next year? Good luck!

 

[bronx43]

Is the AI job market still terrible? Just curious.

 

[AI2015apps]

Yes. A friend of mine left A/I fellowship last year (it was her first yr of fellowship) to work as a hospitalist because of a lack of job opportunities. She was looking for private practice. In my case, I'm not at all interested in private practice (more interested in lab research) so I think I should be ok hopefully.

 

[bronx43]

Yes. A friend of mine left A/I fellowship last year (it was her first yr of fellowship) to work as a hospitalist because of a lack of job opportunities. She was looking for private practice. In my case, I'm not at all interested in private practice (more interested in lab research) so I think I should be ok hopefully.

Good to know that I made the right call doing rheum instead...

You should be good. I hear there's a dearth of academic A/I people.

 

[Spt30]

Good to know that I made the right call doing rheum instead...

You should be good. I hear there's a dearth of academic A/I people.

N=1 here, no problem getting/finding private practice openings in major metropolitan areas.

 

[Spt30]

Yes. A friend of mine left A/I fellowship last year (it was her first yr of fellowship) to work as a hospitalist because of a lack of job opportunities. She was looking for private practice. In my case, I'm not at all interested in private practice (more interested in lab research) so I think I should be ok hopefully.

Hospitalist over A/I..no thank you

 

[bronx43]

Hospitalist over A/I..no thank you

Not hospitalist over A/I. Hospitalist over unemployed.

Not that there aren't ANY jobs out there. It's just very very limited, and if you have any geographic restraints, then you're probably hosed.

 

[Spt30]

Not hospitalist over A/I. Hospitalist over unemployed.

Not that there aren't ANY jobs out there. It's just very very limited, and if you have any geographic restraints, then you're probably hosed.

Like I said, I have been looking and finding private practice jobs in desirable metropolitan areas.

 

[bronx43]

Like I said, I have been looking and finding private practice jobs in desirable metropolitan areas.

Paying how much? Just curious to how it compares to a few years back. A big practice in my area (metro of 2 mil) had openings a few years back but it was largely a predatory situation where the new grads may or may not have been offered partnership tracks, but the sole partner always refused to give up equity and just used them as cheap labor to generate revenue for himself. That's the problem with saturated job markets... it's not just the number of job offers, but the business implications of those offers.
Honestly, if I went into A/I, I would have opened up my own shop, but that would have been a huge pain in the ass. Just the paperwork alone would have made it worse than residency.

 

[bashwell]

Interesting discussion! Just curious, how's the market like for rheum?

If the market is good, I wouldn't be surprised if rheum becomes increasingly competitive, since rheum seems to have all the other desirables (at least from what I've seen in my limited experience): some of the best and nicest doctors I've met were rheum; the science behind it seems really interesting; it can be both cerebral and procedural; the patients often seem very grateful; lifestyle seems great; and pay seems to be above average.

 

[Spt30]

Paying how much? Just curious to how it compares to a few years back. A big practice in my area (metro of 2 mil) had openings a few years back but it was largely a predatory situation where the new grads may or may not have been offered partnership tracks, but the sole partner always refused to give up equity and just used them as cheap labor to generate revenue for himself. That's the problem with saturated job markets... it's not just the number of job offers, but the business implications of those offers.
Honestly, if I went into A/I, I would have opened up my own shop, but that would have been a huge pain in the ass. Just the paperwork alone would have made it worse than residency.

Big HMO group had a starting pay of 250k with benefits for 5 day work week. The group I will be joining starts off at 200k per year w/benefits for 3-4 days of work per week. Partner after 1 year. Partners make any where from 250-500k per year, depending on how busy you are.

Unfortunately there are a lot of sketchy allergist out there looking to make money off unsuspecting new grads. I have heard of the same scenario you described. One practice was always hiring someone new every year and were always at the national meetings trying sucker a graduating fellow. They had a horrible reputation in their area and the practice was all about the $$$.

 

[bronx43]

Interesting discussion! Just curious, how's the market like for rheum?

If the market is good, I wouldn't be surprised if rheum becomes increasingly competitive, since rheum seems to have all the other desirables (at least from what I've seen in my limited experience): some of the best and nicest doctors I've met were rheum; the science behind it seems really interesting; it can be both cerebral and procedural; the patients often seem very grateful; lifestyle seems great; and pay seems to be above average.

Market for rheum is good. Large markets are obviously more saturated, but there are a ton of jobs out there. Just go to mdsearch or any other large recruiting website and look at the number of job openings. While this is obviously NOT indicative of the actual number of jobs present in the market, it is a good barometer to the overall health of the job market for a particular field. Rheum, if you take a look, has a great job to fellows ratio. But, it may be more difficult to find a single specialty practice, since those are far more desirable for a variety of reasons.

From what I've heard, rheum is getting more competitive (though still not very competitive overall), and the pay is going up. For me, the thing about rheum is that tons of treatments are looking to pop up in the next 5-10 years. It may be a long shot, but if they ever come up with some biologic that you can use to treat osteoarthritis, then it'll be the next lucrative IM sub-specialty.

Also, you treat overall pretty healthy ppl. You do have your crazy fibro patients, but to be honest, once you develop a relationship with them, they are some of the easier patients to deal with. They see you once every 4-6 months and you tell them to keep doing what they're doing and you sympathize with them. One of our attendings runs a solely FM practice, and it's quite possibly the easiest clinic I've ever had as a resident. The interaction is literally like this. "Hi Ms. Smith, how are you doing?" "Terrible. I'm hurting all over." "Ok, well keep exercising and taking gabapentin. We'll see you in 6 months." "Ok, sounds good."

And lastly, I find it fascinating. Lupus nephritis? Scleroderma renal crisis? Familial Mediterranean Fever? Love it.

 

[Spt30]

Market for rheum is good. Large markets are obviously more saturated, but there are a ton of jobs out there. Just go to mdsearch or any other large recruiting website and look at the number of job openings. While this is obviously NOT indicative of the actual number of jobs present in the market, it is a good barometer to the overall health of the job market for a particular field. Rheum, if you take a look, has a great job to fellows ratio. But, it may be more difficult to find a single specialty practice, since those are far more desirable for a variety of reasons.

From what I've heard, rheum is getting more competitive (though still not very competitive overall), and the pay is going up. For me, the thing about rheum is that tons of treatments are looking to pop up in the next 5-10 years. It may be a long shot, but if they ever come up with some biologic that you can use to treat osteoarthritis, then it'll be the next lucrative IM sub-specialty.

Also, you treat overall pretty healthy ppl. You do have your crazy fibro patients, but to be honest, once you develop a relationship with them, they are some of the easier patients to deal with. They see you once every 4-6 months and you tell them to keep doing what they're doing and you sympathize with them. One of our attendings runs a solely FM practice, and it's quite possibly the easiest clinic I've ever had as a resident. The interaction is literally like this. "Hi Ms. Smith, how are you doing?" "Terrible. I'm hurting all over." "Ok, well keep exercising and taking gabapentin. We'll see you in 6 months." "Ok, sounds good."

And lastly, I find it fascinating. Lupus nephritis? Scleroderma renal crisis? Familial Mediterranean Fever? Love it.

I actually considered rheumatology as well. There are combined fellowships in A/I and rheum. I also considered this, but from what I saw most practiced one specialty over the other and it is more for the academically inclined.

There are some overlap between the two. In fellowship I had a couple of patients with periodic fevers; although these cases are extremely rare. In actual practice I work more with ENT and dermatology.

Both in my view are excellent fields with great lifestyles. A/I had less inpatient work (if any) and that clinched it for me. 🙂

 

[Carbocation1]

Market for rheum is good. Large markets are obviously more saturated, but there are a ton of jobs out there. Just go to mdsearch or any other large recruiting website and look at the number of job openings. While this is obviously NOT indicative of the actual number of jobs present in the market, it is a good barometer to the overall health of the job market for a particular field. Rheum, if you take a look, has a great job to fellows ratio. But, it may be more difficult to find a single specialty practice, since those are far more desirable for a variety of reasons.

From what I've heard, rheum is getting more competitive (though still not very competitive overall), and the pay is going up. For me, the thing about rheum is that tons of treatments are looking to pop up in the next 5-10 years. It may be a long shot, but if they ever come up with some biologic that you can use to treat osteoarthritis, then it'll be the next lucrative IM sub-specialty.

Also, you treat overall pretty healthy ppl. You do have your crazy fibro patients, but to be honest, once you develop a relationship with them, they are some of the easier patients to deal with. They see you once every 4-6 months and you tell them to keep doing what they're doing and you sympathize with them. One of our attendings runs a solely FM practice, and it's quite possibly the easiest clinic I've ever had as a resident. The interaction is literally like this. "Hi Ms. Smith, how are you doing?" "Terrible. I'm hurting all over." "Ok, well keep exercising and taking gabapentin. We'll see you in 6 months." "Ok, sounds good."

And lastly, I find it fascinating. Lupus nephritis? Scleroderma renal crisis? Familial Mediterranean Fever? Love it.

Hey Bronx, is MDsearch your favorite recruiting website, or are there others you use to get a feel for the market? MDsearch shows 4600 openings for hospitalist... the job market for hospitalist sound pretty good to me. 430 for Rheum, and 600 for Gas (I guess the doom and gloom in gas hasn't panned out yet?)

 

[bronx43]

Hey Bronx, is MDsearch your favorite recruiting website, or are there others you use to get a feel for the market? MDsearch shows 4600 openings for hospitalist... the job market for hospitalist sound pretty good to me. 430 for Rheum, and 600 for Gas (I guess the doom and gloom in gas hasn't panned out yet?)

MDsearch is one of the bigger ones, but there are others like practicelink, or MDjobsite. For the most part, these will list the crappier jobs that need advertising. However, I think it's a good overall barometer for the market. The truly in demand specialties will have a TON of jobs listed on these sites, but the specialties with crappy job market will have few. That isn't to say that you can't find a good job that isn't listed - it's just more difficult.

Also, the important thing to look for is job to trainee ratio. So, if you look at the number of rheumatology jobs (430) versus number of fellows (200), that's a >2:1 ratio, which is good. If you look at anesthesiology, there are over 1000 trainees per year, but there are only 600 posted jobs. That's about a ratio of 0.6, which is so-so. If you look at radiology jobs, there are only 180, but there are 770 residents per year. That's a ratio of 0.23. Awful.

Again, obviously not indicative of whether or not YOU will find a good job in these fields, but it's a rough statistical estimation.

 

[bashwell]

MDsearch is one of the bigger ones, but there are others like practicelink, or MDjobsite. For the most part, these will list the crappier jobs that need advertising. However, I think it's a good overall barometer for the market. The truly in demand specialties will have a TON of jobs listed on these sites, but the specialties with crappy job market will have few. That isn't to say that you can't find a good job that isn't listed - it's just more difficult.

Also, the important thing to look for is job to trainee ratio. So, if you look at the number of rheumatology jobs (430) versus number of fellows (200), that's a >2:1 ratio, which is good. If you look at anesthesiology, there are over 1000 trainees per year, but there are only 600 posted jobs. That's about a ratio of 0.6, which is so-so. If you look at radiology jobs, there are only 180, but there are 770 residents per year. That's a ratio of 0.23. Awful.

Again, obviously not indicative of whether or not YOU will find a good job in these fields, but it's a rough statistical estimation.

Thanks @bronx43, very helpful! 🙂 By the way, when we're looking for the trainee numbers each year, is the NRMP match data the best place to go to see how many trainees there will likely be graduating each year? Or is there another or better source to use? I believe the NRMP match data only show how many are accepted into a specialty or fellowship, not how many graduate each year. It's possible not all who are accepted will necessarily graduate in the same specialty they started off in or necessarily finish their fellowship. But it's probably a small enough number that we can still safely presume that most of the people who match into a specialty or fellowship will be more or less the same number as how many will graduate or finish in their specialty or fellowship?

 

[bronx43]

Thanks @bronx43, very helpful! 🙂 By the way, when we're looking for the trainee numbers each year, is the NRMP match data the best place to go to see how many trainees there will likely be graduating each year? Or is there another or better source to use? I believe the NRMP match data only show how many are accepted into a specialty or fellowship, not how many graduate each year. It's possible not all who are accepted will necessarily graduate in the same specialty they started off in or necessarily finish their fellowship. But it's probably a small enough number that we can still safely presume that most of the people who match into a specialty or fellowship will be more or less the same number as how many will graduate or finish in their specialty or fellowship?

No problem, man.
I think it's safe to assume that most people who match into a specialty will graduate, though there are always exceptions. However, this number is likely to be insignificant and negligible for the purposes of our discussion here. One thing to keep in mind, though, is that not all residents in a specialty will actually go into said specialty, but not necessarily drop out. What I mean is, you can't look at the number of IM graduates every year and compare it to the number of hospitalist jobs out there, because only about 20-25% of graduates will be a hospitalist (maybe moreso nowadays but I don't have the actual data). For sub-specialties with a terminal training path, you can safely assume that the number of graduates will be the number of job seekers out there. Every rheumatology fellow will come out and be a rheumatologist. If you look at radiology, the only sub-specialization that provides them with a different job is IR. Everything else (neuro, breast, MSK, etc) will show up as a job under "radiology." So, the fact that they have another training pathway takes pressure off their diagnostic radiology market, but not by enough to make the market good (IR isn't a huge field with a lot of trainees).

 

[bronx43]

I actually considered rheumatology as well. There are combined fellowships in A/I and rheum. I also considered this, but from what I saw most practiced one specialty over the other and it is more for the academically inclined.

There are some overlap between the two. In fellowship I had a couple of patients with periodic fevers; although these cases are extremely rare. In actual practice I work more with ENT and dermatology.

Both in my view are excellent fields with great lifestyles. A/I had less inpatient work (if any) and that clinched it for me. 🙂

Which programs are combined? I was looking around right before I applied, but I didn't find any actual combined fellowships. They were usually the same division, but no specific training program that offered both. But, you're right. There isn't a huge need for both, and having double certification doesn't really get you anywhere in terms of income potential or even academic potential.

Did any of your co-fellows or just fellows you know go into industry? I've always wondered about how that gig would be in terms of lifestyle, income, level of intellectual stimulation, etc. One of the adjunct faculty members of allergy at my institution was working for a pharmaceutical company, but he was older, and I never got a chance to ask him about it.

 

[Spt30]

Here's one program. https://www.urmc.rochester.edu/medicine/allergy/students-fellows/fellowships.aspx

You are right, there aren't that many combined programs. Then again, there aren't many allergy fellowships to begin with. The two people I know who have done both fellowships are both doing allergy.

I had both co-fellows and fellows I know of who have gone into industry. They are usually more research oriented and some of the smartest people I have met. A couple of them don't really like patient care, which makes sense. I don't really know how much they got paid, but I have heard it was probably 150-200k or s0 for 40 hours of work. However, I know one person who works for a pharmaceutical company who is now a multi-millionaire because of stock options. He has been with the company for 20 years and has an MD/Phd.

 

[Carbocation1]

MDsearch is one of the bigger ones, but there are others like practicelink, or MDjobsite. For the most part, these will list the crappier jobs that need advertising. However, I think it's a good overall barometer for the market. The truly in demand specialties will have a TON of jobs listed on these sites, but the specialties with crappy job market will have few. That isn't to say that you can't find a good job that isn't listed - it's just more difficult.

Also, the important thing to look for is job to trainee ratio. So, if you look at the number of rheumatology jobs (430) versus number of fellows (200), that's a >2:1 ratio, which is good. If you look at anesthesiology, there are over 1000 trainees per year, but there are only 600 posted jobs. That's about a ratio of 0.6, which is so-so. If you look at radiology jobs, there are only 180, but there are 770 residents per year. That's a ratio of 0.23. Awful.

Again, obviously not indicative of whether or not YOU will find a good job in these fields, but it's a rough statistical estimation.

Damn, Rheum looks pretty good and sounds like a great choice. Cardiology on the other hand... well an IC guy just posted in that forum yesterday that he is strongly considering switching to Hospitalist. Crazy.

 

[sky_pink]

How is the A/I peds job market?