A list of average debt of D.O. and M.D. medical schools - Touro tops the list

[OnMyWayThere]

It's interesting how most of the osteopathic medical schools are on top...

http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/webextras/brief/sb_med_debt_brief.php

Whose graduates have the most debt? The least?

How much should you expect to borrow? On average, medical school grads who need to take out loans start their residencies with debt of $100,000--and that's not counting any college loans. This table shows the average amount of debt incurred by borrowers in the Class of 2005, from highest to lowest.

Touro Univ. College of Osteopathic Medicine (CA) $182,000
Rosalind Franklin University of Medicine and Science (IL) $174,932
Philadelphia College of Osteopathic Medicine $172,491
Nova Southeastern U. Col. of Osteopathic Med. (FL) $165,110
U. of New England Col. of Osteopathic Medicine (ME) $164,516
New York Medical College $163,000
Drexel University (PA) $160,488
Tufts University (MA) $158,336
New York College of Osteopathic Medicine $158,000
Col. of Osteopathic Medicine of the Pacific (Western University) (CA) $154,572
West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine $148,147
Des Moines U. Osteopathic Medical Center (IA) $146,689
University of Southern California (Keck) $146,300
University of Chicago (Pritzker) $144,900
A.T. Still University of Health Sciences (Kirksville) (MO) $144,801
Creighton University (NE) $144,229
Mich. State U. Coll. of Osteopathic Medicine $141,850
Boston University $141,681
Mercer University (GA) $141,006
Jefferson Medical College (PA) $140,916
Temple University (PA) $140,266
Lake Erie College of Osteopathic Medicine (PA) $140,000
University of Miami (Miller) (FL) $139,100
Albany Medical College (NY) $138,897
Rush University (IL) $136,663
George Washington University (DC) $136,500
Michigan State University $136,461
Oklahoma State University Center for Health Sciences $136,000
Loyola University Chicago (Stritch) $134,929
Georgetown University (DC) $134,482
University at Buffalo--SUNY $134,121
Northwestern University (Feinberg) (IL) $132,346
University of Vermont $131,945
University of Wisconsin--Madison $130,000
University of Rochester (NY) $129,342
Pikeville Coll. School of Osteopathic Medicine (KY) $128,000
Wake Forest University (NC) $126,634
Medical University of Ohio $125,473
Ohio University $124,795
Oregon Health and Science University $124,486
University of Pittsburgh $123,256
Case Western Reserve University (OH) $123,100
Howard University (DC) $120,829
Stony Brook University (NY) $120,300
University of Minnesota Medical School $119,868
University of Cincinnati $119,355
Medical College of Wisconsin $119,340
University of Maryland $118,700
University of Oklahoma $118,000
Texas Tech University Health Sciences Center $117,482
Morehouse School of Medicine (GA) $116,518
Virginia Commonwealth University $115,314
Emory University (GA) $114,078
SUNY--Syracuse $113,231
Wayne State University (MI) $113,000
University of Michigan--Ann Arbor $110,738
Indiana University--Indianapolis $110,723
Southern Illinois University--Springfield $109,255
Ohio State University $109,139
East Tennessee State Univ. (Quillen) $109,000
Medical University of South Carolina $108,952
University of Missouri--Columbia $108,805
University of North Dakota $108,710
University of Colorado--Denver and Health Sciences Center $105,755
University of South Dakota $104,497
UMDNJ--School of Osteopathic Medicine $104,005
UMDNJ-Robert Wood Johnson Medical School $103,897
Vanderbilt University (TN) $103,200
University of Tennessee Health Science Center $103,193
UMDNJ-New Jersey Medical School $103,118
Harvard University (MA) $102,625
University of Pennsylvania $101,318
Columbia U. College of Physicians and Surgeons (NY) $100,970
University of Nebraska College of Medicine $100,875
University of South Florida $100,823
University of Iowa (Carver) $99,812
University of Arkansas for Medical Sciences $98,582
University of Texas Medical Branch--Galveston $98,517
Northeastern Ohio Univ. College of Medicine $98,494
Univ. of Texas Health Science Center--Houston $98,345
University of Illinois--Chicago $97,556
University of Kentucky $97,171
University of Alabama--Birmingham $96,786
New York University $95,935
Johns Hopkins University (MD) $95,919
West Virginia University $95,308
Yeshiva University (Einstein) (NY) $95,000
Yale University (CT) $94,568
U. of N. Texas Health Sci. Center (Texas Col. of Osteopathic Medicine) $93,207
Texas A&M Univ. System Health Science Center $93,152
University of New Mexico $92,687
Washington University in St. Louis $92,501
University of Massachusetts--Worcester $92,069
Mount Sinai School of Medicine (NY) $91,460
Brown University (RI) $91,174
Cornell University (Weill) (NY) $91,048
University of Kansas Medical Center $89,949
Dartmouth Medical School (NH) $86,500
University of South Carolina $86,311
University of California--Los Angeles (Geffen) $86,122
University of Washington $85,953
University of Arizona $85,706
University of Connecticut $79,000
University of Virginia $78,790
University of California--San Francisco $76,573
University of Florida $75,975
U. of Texas Southwestern Medical Center--Dallas $75,400
Duke University (NC) $74,790
University of North Carolina--Chapel Hill $74,605
University of California--Davis $69,345
University of California--Irvine $69,000
Baylor College of Medicine (TX) $67,679
University of California--San Diego $66,642
Mayo Medical School (MN) $65,772
University of Utah $65,386
Medical College of Georgia $63,907
East Carolina University (Brody) (NC) $63,793
Stanford University (CA) $61,566
Uniformed Services Univ. of the Health Sciences (Hebert) (MD) $0

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[Kubed]

Yeah! Go Touro...... wait a min

 

[glorytaker]

Whenever I see a list like this with private schools on the top, I just think of what the Flexner report said about private medical schools.

 

[CatsandCradles]

Uniformed Services Univ. of the Health Sciences (Hebert) (MD) $0

😱 😱 😱 😱

 

[Idiopathic]

Whats really interesting is how good the schools on the bottom are. I remember when I interviewed at Duke, they said their average grant for someone on financial aid was 60% of the total cost of attending. Thats what the big boys can offer, I guess.

 

[DragonWell]

People always talk about how expensive WVSOM is - $72,000/year!! Is this 4real?
$45,000 for tutition, etc. It seems a little odd that they're #11 on the list. Almost makes me think that the list reflects cost of living in the area as much/more than tuition...Anyone have any insight?

 

[OnMyWayThere]

People always talk about how expensive WVSOM is - $72,000/year!! Is this 4real?
$45,000 for tutition, etc. It seems a little odd that they're #11 on the list. Almost makes me think that the list reflects cost of living in the area as much/more than tuition...Anyone have any insight?

Well the report is the average... and not many out of staters would attend WVSOM because of that tution. And yes, it is true: http://wvsom.edu/StudentAffairs/FinancialAid/FABudget.htm but that includes room & board, books, etc.

 

[emtji]

Well the report is the average... and not many out of staters would attend WVSOM because of that tution. And yes, it is true: http://wvsom.edu/StudentAffairs/FinancialAid/FABudget.htm but that includes room & board, books, etc.

this also reflects the student body itself. tufts tends to have a ton of rick folk who can pay full tuition. but being expensive and in the middle of boston, it should be #1 on the list.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Does noone see it as a problem that 6 out of 10 of the "most expensive" schools are Osteopathic medical schools?

I think this says alot about these schools' motivations. Education vs profit - I think the numbers speak for themselves, especially when our colleges are such the minority..

And Touro has how many branch campuses now? Is it 8 or 10??

Thank God I went to one of the few public schools - TCOM is way down there on this list, the least expensive Osteopathic school listed 👍 👍

jd

 

[DeLaughterDO]

Uniformed Services Univ. of the Health Sciences (Hebert) (MD) $0

😱 😱 😱 😱

This school is (as stated in the name) for military only - the pay for school with their skin, not their pocketbooks.

 

[Richie Truxillo]

West Virginia School of Osteopathic Medicine $148,147

woo hoo!

WVSOM representing 😉 ROFL

Go out-of-staters!

-Richie

 

[scpod]

I think this says alot about these schools' motivations. Education vs profit - I think the numbers speak for themselves, especially when our colleges are such the minority..

It isn't about profit. The schools aren't making money off of your tuition. In fact, your tuition doesn't even pay for the total cost of your education. Schools get money from endowments, clinics, gifts, and research dollars to help fund your education as well. The schools who don't have access to those other monetary avenues are either forced to have higher tuition, make deals with the community, or cut back on services. LECOM-Bradenton, for instance, doesn't have research dollars, but the state of Florida gave them $325,111 last year in exchange for giving in-state students a $1,000 break on tuition. Their out-of-state tuition is less than $26,000. Some schools have tuition of over $40,000, but it costs more than that to educate you in a year, and they're not making a profit.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

It isn't about profit. The schools aren't making money off of your tuition. In fact, your tuition doesn't even pay for the total cost of your education. Schools get money from endowments, clinics, gifts, and research dollars to help fund your education as well. The schools who don't have access to those other monetary avenues are either forced to have higher tuition, make deals with the community, or cut back on services. LECOM-Bradenton, for instance, doesn't have research dollars, but the state of Florida gave them $325,111 last year in exchange for giving in-state students a $1,000 break on tuition. Their out-of-state tuition is less than $26,000. Some schools have tuition of over $40,000, but it costs more than that to educate you in a year, and they're not making a profit.

I don't believe this whatsoever. For example, we have 200 students in our class paying over $35,000 a year. That is $7,000,000 a year per class x 4 class = $28,000,000 a year in revenue. Many teachers teach multiple subjects and I highly doubt the overall overhead of the school is more that $28 million a year. Especially with 3rd and 4th year students having much less expense (I understand the training hospitals get reimbursed more from the state than the school). And about LECOM being non-profit, someone was PMing me that the owners have a private jet...

 

[DragonWell]

I don't believe this whatsoever. For example, we have 200 students in our class paying over $35,000 a year. That is $7,000,000 a year per class x 4 class = $28,000,000 a year in revenue. Many teachers teach multiple subjects and I highly doubt the overall overhead of the school is more that $28 million a year. Especially with 3rd and 4th year students having much less expense (I understand the training hospitals get reimbursed more from the state than the school). And about LECOM being non-profit, someone was PMing me that the owners have a private jet...

I know this link has been posted before, but it seems pertinent: Where Tuition Goes.

Of course these numbers are referring to allopathic med schools, so how closely they reflect DO schools is debatable: "For public schools, the percentage of medical school revenue that is derived from tuition and fees is about 3% on average; for private medical schools, the percentage is about 5-8%. However, there is a wide range in the percentage of total revenue that comes from student payments, anywhere from 1% to 44%."

I agree $28 million seems like a staggering amount of revenue for one year, but the expenses are probably equally unimaginable; WVSOM lists ~40 faculty on their website. Assuming a professor takes home ~$100,000 a year, that's $4 million just for faculty payroll! Without seeing the breakdown of the actual expenses and revenue for the schools, the discussion is like trying to solve a fermi problem with no data.

 

[MossPoh]

I have no idea about the numbers...but it is always surprising where this money goes sometimes. It isn't always a raw profit that can just be thrown into whatever they want. Do they make a sizeable sum of money? Probably...but I guarentee there are tons of expenses and whatever else that nobody ever thinks of. A thousand dollars here and there can really add up after a while. Just facility matience takes a lot more money than people would expect many times. I think a more obvious indicator that they are in it for the money more than the education would be if it were like some of the carib schools that just recruit as many people as possible to start out with and then weed them out quickly(not knocking caribs...they just have a habit of attracting people that were or never really will be prepared for medschool..the docs they do turn out are generally very good)...or if tons of people just bombed the boards and failed out constantly but they still charged an obscene amount of money.

 

[Charlie Bravo]

Whats really interesting is how good the schools on the bottom are.

I'm sure there are a lot of people at the "good" schools who can afford to pay their way w/o taking loans...

 

[scpod]

I don't believe this whatsoever. For example, we have 200 students in our class paying over $35,000 a year. That is $7,000,000 a year per class x 4 class = $28,000,000 a year in revenue. Many teachers teach multiple subjects and I highly doubt the overall overhead of the school is more that $28 million a year. Especially with 3rd and 4th year students having much less expense (I understand the training hospitals get reimbursed more from the state than the school). And about LECOM being non-profit, someone was PMing me that the owners have a private jet...

A lot is paid out for professor's salaries, of course. Paying for the best costs a lot. Physicians are well-compensated in order to make up for the difference between what they would be making in private practice. Yet, there are all the other expenses as well. The building, the equipment, lab supplies (cadavers, etc.) security, transportation, the library, technology services, utility bills (ever heated, cooled, or lighted a 100,000 sf building before?) security, staff salaries (admissions, financial aid, counseling, secretaries, custodial, security, maintenance), office equipment, maintenance, cleaning, repair, lawn care, taxes, insurance, mortgages, etc. It is truly naive to believe that a medical school can operate on 28 million dollars a year.

BTW, if LECOM could afford a private jet and only charge 25,000 a year in tuition, then I say let them have it. Of course, I've never seen that private jet, have you?

 

[NonTradMed]

I'm sure there are a lot of people at the "good" schools who can afford to pay their way w/o taking loans...

I don't believe this is true. Are many of these kids middle class? Probably. But are they rich enough that their parents can foot most of the bill for med school? I doubt it.

Many top private med schools (and colleges) have alot of money and can afford to be generous to kids after they accept them.

I saw this when I was applying for college when my biggest grant/scholarship package was from the most prestigeous school I applied to----I ended up paying the same amount for tuition for a private, "top ten" university that many state schools charge for education.

I think universities like Duke and Harvard, while expensive on the surface, is merely the 'sticker' price of the education and students get a far steeper discount if accepted and can demostrate need. My roomate got into WashU med school, and was offered a substantial scholarship for it, we thought she must have been so smart, but it turned out the school offers most people some type of grant for tuition. I will be attending my instate med school and they have said point blank they can't offer most of us *any* sort of scholarship (due to budget costs the last few years).

 

[It'sElectric]

I know this link has been posted before, but it seems pertinent: Where Tuition Goes.

Of course these numbers are referring to allopathic med schools, so how closely they reflect DO schools is debatable: "For public schools, the percentage of medical school revenue that is derived from tuition and fees is about 3% on average; for private medical schools, the percentage is about 5-8%. However, there is a wide range in the percentage of total revenue that comes from student payments, anywhere from 1% to 44%."

I agree $28 million seems like a staggering amount of revenue for one year, but the expenses are probably equally unimaginable; WVSOM lists ~40 faculty on their website. Assuming a professor takes home ~$100,000 a year, that's $4 million just for faculty payroll! Without seeing the breakdown of the actual expenses and revenue for the schools, the discussion is like trying to solve a fermi problem with no data.

Your provided link does mention DO schools, and it's an incredibly key point that the article makes:

Allopathic medical schools generally derive a very small percentage (10% or less) of their total revenue from tuition. However, osteopathic medical schools depend more on tuition (15% to almost 50% of their revenue).(6) This is because osteopathic medical schools generally do not receive as much grant money (research funding), government funding, or hospital revenue as allopathic institutions. Due to changes in our health care system, the economy, and other external factors, practice plans and hospital revenue account for increasing portions of total revenue, while grants (research funding) are decreasing. For example, below is a graph illustrating changes in three areas of revenue over the past three years. These changes have a significant impact on the three-legged stool of academic health centers: teaching, research, and clinical practice.(6)

 

[MacGyver]

Your link above is worthless because it only shows revenues, not expenses.

If you want to prove where the money is going, you have to have a chart on what the med schools spend money on, in addition to the revenue chart.

Just because tuition is only 10% of all revenues DOES NOT eliminate the possibility that med schools are price gouging students for profit.

 

[CatsandCradles]

I'm going to WVSOM this comming August, so naturally I have been curious about a lot of things on the school. One of them is the school's budget. Since it is a public school, I looked online at West Virginia's higher education allocation.

WVSOM recieved about $30.5 million in state budget in 2006. I found this information here:http://www.wvbudget.gov/opdet/hepc.pdf

Now if WVSOM has increased its class size, let's pretend that they enroll 140 students. Also we'll assume that half of them are out of staters paying the $47,000

Just from the out of staters: $3.3 million
When multiplied by 4 classes: $13.2 million

From in state students paying $18,000: $1.26 million
When multiplied by 4 classes: $5 million

That comes out to about: $48.7 million for the fiscal year of 2006 if you assume the school is not reciveing any money from outside sources. If you add in random things like alumni giving and endownments, perhaps the school is getting another $1 or $2 million.

Conclusion:

It looks like WVSOM is pretty much a state supported school that gets most of its money from the state, (about 61%). Student tutition might be covering about 35% and 4% comming from other sources. Of course I am not an accountant, so all of this could be wrong.

But this break down does resemble with the information in the link that bodymechanic provided us:

Allopathic medical schools generally derive a very small percentage (10% or less) of their total revenue from tuition. However, osteopathic medical schools depend more on tuition (15% to almost 50% of their revenue).(6) This is because osteopathic medical schools generally do not receive as much grant money (research funding), government funding, or hospital revenue as allopathic institutions. Due to changes in our health care system, the economy, and other external factors, practice plans and hospital revenue account for increasing portions of total revenue, while grants (research funding) are decreasing. For example, below is a graph illustrating changes in three areas of revenue over the past three years. These changes have a significant impact on the three-legged stool of academic health centers: teaching, research, and clinical practice

It would be interesting to see, I suspect, the vast differences in budget for West Virginia's three medical schools. If I remember correctly, WVU medical school randomly derives $10 million annually from a pop soda tax each year. That's a lot of soda and a lot of money just comming out of random sources.

Both Marshall University Medical school and WVSOM ran into budget trouble back in the late 1980s. For a lot of medical schools, the late 80s and 90s were some really bad times. So its interesting to see how they have come so far.

 

[DrBMX]

There are two things about WVSOM that I found.

1. The class of 2005 had about 70-80 people. 60% of them are instate. Therefore, the average debt was quite low. But for the class of 2010 with 200 people, and more than 50% are out of state, you'll see WVSOM be on top of the list in 2010.

2. Ranking in US new and reports about medical school (in anything) is almost useless. The US New and Report sent questions to medical schools, and then compiled them as ranking.

 

[It'sElectric]

Your link above is worthless because it only shows revenues, not expenses.

If you want to prove where the money is going, you have to have a chart on what the med schools spend money on, in addition to the revenue chart.

Just because tuition is only 10% of all revenues DOES NOT eliminate the possibility that med schools are price gouging students for profit.

How can you say it's "worthless"? Whether or not it shows expenses as well doesn't completely negate the fact that it compares allopathic to osteopathic and states what should be the obvious, that osteopathic schools don't receive the kind of outside funds that allopathic schools do. Thus, a great deal more of the finances rely on the tuition. That's all fairly fundamental.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

NSUCOM which is #4 is a nonprofit college

 

[OnMyWayThere]

NSUCOM which is #4 is a nonprofit college

Here is a fine example of how "non-profit" is not really a "non-profit" organization http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/416559.html

 

[scpod]

Here is a fine example of how "non-profit" is not really a "non-profit" organization http://www.newsobserver.com/104/story/416559.html

Do you really think that you can compare an insurance company to a medical school? An insurance company sells a "product" and their ultimate goal is to make as much as is possible. That's not what a medical school does.

Besides, the article says that the executive salaries were recently increased and are now on par with similar non-profit and for-profit comanies in the area. The average "man-on-the-street" is always going to feel that an executive is overpaid and that the company spends way too much money on things. Yet, BCBS of NC is within the limits for similar companies.

 

[OnMyWayThere]

Do you really think that you can compare an insurance company to a medical school? An insurance company sells a "product" and their ultimate goal is to make as much as is possible. That's not what a medical school does.

Besides, the article says that the executive salaries were recently increased and are now on par with similar non-profit and for-profit comanies in the area. The average "man-on-the-street" is always going to feel that an executive is overpaid and that the company spends way too much money on things. Yet, BCBS of NC is within the limits for similar companies.

You can't compare the two but it shows how "not-profits" are indeed profitable.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Why are neither CCOM or AZCOM on there?

 

[scpod]

Why are neither CCOM or AZCOM on there?

USNews does almost everything by survey. If they failed to reply to the survey, then they wouldn't be on it.

 

[sddoc]

Darn... Lecom didn't even make the Top 20 🙁 . Oh well, I guess 22 is pretty respectable. 😛

I've never seen the private jet, but then again, I've never seen the Lecom atrium either and I'm pretty sure that it exists! Actually, since the top 2 administrators have salaries of over $350,000 per year, they can probably afford their own jet! I, on the other hand, am so far in debt, that I will probably be lucky to have anything better than my 2000 Cavalier with 138,000 miles on it! 🙄

 

[tucomnvms1]

I'm gonna make a school that only costs $100 dollars for tuition for the 4 years.... and everyone that applies gets in, no questions asked!

 

[osli]

I guess I'll never understand how these averages are actually achieved.

For instance, tuition at KCUMB is near 150,000 for the four years. Minimum living expenses get that to 200,000. Using their own living expenses budget, it would be more like 225,000. Yet they report the average debt being around 100,000 for graduating students.

How in the hell is that possible? KCUMB, like most other osteopathic schools, doesn't give out generous grants or scholarships. And there aren't a whole lot of public and private scholarships out there for medical students. Am I really supposed to believe that at least half the class, each and every year, is fully supported by parents or other outside sources, both for tuition and living expenses? Are half the students on Health-Corps or military scholarship programs? I doubt that.

Something doesn't smell right.

 

[UserNameNeeded]

And do these average debt loads take into account the interest that accrues on most student loans during the time they're in school? That should add up to thousands of extra dollars above and beyond the tens of thousands actually borrowed by graduating medical students.

 

[osli]

Indeed. With current interest rates, the amount you borrow in the first year damn near doubles if you wait until the end of a 5 year residency program (I guess 4 might be the average?) before beginning repayment.

 

[medicine1]

I think the real question is this: With DO schools pushing for primary care, while charging an enourmous amount for tuition, how can they expect their graduates to work in rural settings, underserved areas, and lower paying fields like pediatrics and family practice? I know of doctors that went bankrupt working in rural areas, while having to pay back their loans, and mal-practice fees.