A politically charged question, just want to know if anyone else considered this

[TecmoBowl]

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Hey,
So what do we think about "Immigration"? I believe in equity (no not Socialism), but that all of us have to follow the law/rules etc., and pay taxes.

In my hospital's OB suite, I cannot tell you how many babies are born, some of them are the 5th, 6th kids of patients with no insurance, possibly from an "Illegal" origin, be it Latin/South America, Asia whatever.

I think a lot of these people are abused to begin with, in a sense that they are paid essentially "slave" wages so I think to myself that doing such "free" work is the least we can do for them.

BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY, I am concerned about the long term consequences. This is a growing percentage of the population (no not just Hispanics, though that is the group everyone thinks of first), that is forming a large voting base. Now, the kids probably grow up in inopportune circumstances, no education (especially now), and have poor income outlook. Next, they form an angry voting base. Along comes some schmuck politician who says, "Hey, I"m for you abused guys/gals. Vote for me." The educated (i.e., us) are now SOL!!

That possibility pisses me off more than anything. What is the Government going to do about this issue?

Republicans are DEFINITELY not in our favor. Consider that we're going to be taking care of the old baby boomers soon...i.e, Medicare. Just look at what happened to the recent Medicare reimbursement bill. It only passed the second time it was put to vote, thanks to the Dems.

I don't know that either party is really ultimately in our favor. I just want to know which party is committed to upholding certain principles and morals which make (made?) this country great. Do things legally, pay taxes- that's all I want you know...but it's become a free for all. Anesthesiologists taking advantage of other Anesthesiologists, Wall Street screwing the world, a certain "socially accepted" form of slavery in the form of employing Illegal aliens for ****ty pay and baby boomers who have drained the last bit of everything from the world we're taking over, who now expect us to take pay cuts to provide more for them.

Man....was it always this bad?

 

[starsop93]

Man....was it always this bad?

No, but it WAS that bad from the 1890's to the crash in '29. That's what is (somewhat) repeating itself.

Hell, if there aren't any jobs, immigration will take care of itself. It already is.
Also, every wave of immigration has been made up of primarily poor, uneducated people from countries in despair. Most of them have, in 2 or 3 generations, become as successful as anyone else in the US. I'm not too concerned that Hispanics will be any different, except for the fact that the less educated increasingly are the most reliable voting block for Republicans!

 

[Lonestar]

wait a minute. Are you saying republicans are uneducated??? Where did you get that from??? Just look at the voting block of your party. And before you guys make any judgements, I am not white.

As far as the principles that this country was founded on, lets see. Our founding fathers escaped european countries and hated the idea of double taxation. Guess what, we are taxed doubly (state and federal) and taxes continue to go up regardless. Taxes go up less when repubs are in power and they jump up significantly when dems are in power. One example, it is almost given that gas taxes and gas prices will go up under this administration. Prices will go up b/c of this cap and trade scheme that the dems are looking for. Keep giving your hard earned money to the goverment. That will solve everyone's problems. worked well for europe didn't it.

As far something constructive, poverty will never be erased from this country. Get that through. A few will always have more than many. Question is do you want to live in a country that punishes success?? (>60% tax rate). Try the flat tax. This will eliminate many of your neighbors and many corporations that are not paying their fair share. Joe Biden payed 3K in taxes on a high income (how is this possible?????). But the dems will never go for this, because they realize that they will not have enough of our money to spend on. We need a consumption tax (buy a mercedes, well you are gonna get taxed up the wazoo).

 

[Bertelman]

We need a consumption tax (buy a mercedes, well you are gonna get taxed up the wazoo).

You're not satisfied with the current tax system. Great. No one is. But to say that this can be fixed by enacting a flat tax, followed by taxing luxury items, is ludicrous.

WTF are successful people supposed to do with their money? Recouping the lost tax revenue with a "consumption tax" is no different than our current system, it just sounds more palatable. "Oh, we won't make you pay any more taxes than your poor cousins, until you actually try to spend your money."

Remember that our country runs on consumerism. Why in the world do you think economists use holiday spending patterns to gauge the economy? Punishing people for spending their money will result in economic stagnation, lost jobs, etc.

I actually thought your post was going to make sense this time. I was disappointed again.

 

[PerolaNegra]

Many immigrants these days are crossing the border from Mexico. We have many mexicans where I live. They are hardworking good people. They tend to be very skilled in their jobs. Also, they tend to do jobs even Americans do not want to do.

But, then again, immigration is a problem because for one its a national security issue. And, two, there are issues of insecurities that these people face that need to be addressed.

What is America doing to push and pressure Mexico into addressing these issues of insecurities (in economic, health, food, political, personal, education etc) that their own people are facing? If Mexico addressed these issues and provided for these kinds of securities, people would not be crossing the border. The answer is not to always legalize thousands of illegal immigrants, but to condemn the countries from which they are fleeing and strongly encourage or demand that they address the issues their people are facing and work to fix them.

 

[toughlife]

Many immigrants these days are crossing the border from Mexico. We have many mexicans where I live. They are hardworking good people. They tend to be very skilled in their jobs. Also, they tend to do jobs even Americans do not want to do.

But, then again, immigration is a problem because for one its a national security issue. And, two, there are issues of insecurities that these people face that need to be addressed.

What is America doing to push and pressure Mexico into addressing these issues of insecurities (in economic, health, food, political, personal, education etc) that their own people are facing? If Mexico addressed these issues and provided for these kinds of securities, people would not be crossing the border. The answer is not to always legalize thousands of illegal immigrants, but to condemn the countries from which they are fleeing and strongly encourage or demand that they address the issues their people are facing and work to fix them.

Can you give me one good reason Mexico or any other country whose citizens come to the states have to improve their systems so their people don't flee?

I am sure you know those countries rely on the billions of dollars on remittances that are sent there every year by their citizens living here. Why in the world would they want to do anything to jeopardize that?

 

[PerolaNegra]

Can you give me one good reason Mexico or any other country whose citizens come to the states have to improve their systems so their people don't flee?

I am sure you know those countries rely on the billions of dollars on remittances that are sent there every year by their citizens living here. Why in the world would they want to do anything to jeopardize that?

Unless you're a fugitive or escaping some crazy person, most people flee a country because of the insecurities they face within that country that the country fails to provide.

And, furthermore, in the interest of the U.S., Mexico and any other country should improve their systems and institutions. Did it ever occur to you that illegal aliens crossing the border is a security issue that should be of concern to the U.S.? That could also cause hositilities between nations? Or unrest and instability? Most flee to escape harships of their own country, not because they just feel like leaving. So why not pressure those countries to address these issues (and even give them guidance on how to do so) their people face as well as to not allow for hostilities between nations? Its good for the sake of both nations.


edit: re-reading your statement it seems rhetorical or sarcastic somewhat. disregard my comment.

 

[toughlife]

Unless you're a fugitive or escaping some crazy person, most people flee a country because of the insecurities they face within that country that the country fails to provide.

And, furthermore, in the interest of the U.S., Mexico and any other country should improve their systems and institutions. Did it ever occur to you that illegal aliens crossing the border is a security issue that should be of concern to the U.S.? That could also cause hositilities between nations? Or unrest and instability? Most flee to escape harships of their own country, not because they just feel like leaving. So why not pressure those countries to address these issues (and even give them guidance on how to do so) their people face as well as to not allow for hostilities between nations? Its good for the sake of both nations.


edit: re-reading your statement it seems rhetorical or sarcastic somewhat. disregard my comment.

That's my point. Many of them are not interested in changing because the flow of cash will stop coming from the north. They'd like to keep it that way. Hck, if I was the president of one of those countries and you were a citizen there, I wouldn't want you there. I would want you here, working and sending me money.

 

[isoman2000]

As long as our system rewards hard work and effort, and many other countries are poor and/or do not reward a persons efforts and provide no path upward people will come in droves. And for the most part they are the ones we want, the ones who are willing to take a chance, willing to work and willing to grab every opportunity they can, in time they are invested in the system thus greatly negating the concern of the original poster.

 

[Bertelman]

Many immigrants these days are crossing the border from Mexico. We have many mexicans where I live. They are hardworking good people. They tend to be very skilled in their jobs. Also, they tend to do jobs even Americans do not want to do.

Your screen name suggests hispanic (Italian?) descent, or at least knowledge of the spanish language.

This comment does not.

For starters, these dark-skinned immigrants you refer to are as likely to be Honduran, Venezuelan, Nicaraguan, Columbian, etc. They may actually be passing through the U.S./Mexico border, but they are not by default Mexicans.

To think that the U.S. can "pressure" these countries to improve conditions for their citizens is at once idealistic, naive and quasi-imperialistic. It's as though you believe these countries are completely oblivious to the hardships facing their citizens. "Oh, you mean our citizens are unhappy and fleeing for the limitless opportunity of the U.S.? And you want them to stop? Oh, so sorry. We'll get right on those problems, model our country after yours, and put a stop to those pesky immigrants. Sorry we let that get out of hand."


Don't forget the U.S. uses many of these countries to produce goods cheaply, process our waste, etc. To tell them to improve their own conditions so we don't have to deal with their population face-to-face would be a slap in the face.

 

[PerolaNegra]

That's my point. Many of them are not interested in changing because the flow of cash will stop coming from the north. They'd like to keep it that way. Hck, if I was the president of one of those countries and you were a citizen there, I wouldn't want you there. I would want you here, working and sending me money.

You make a very good point. But, that does not mean the U.S. shouldn't stand its ground. In addition, would it not be in the best interest of a country to not create hostilities especially with a major power? To say that Mexico has incentive to not stop the fleeing of their people is to imply that they are taking advantage of the United States thus making them opportunist. Why would or should America allow themselves to be taken advantage of at the their own expense? Legalizing illegal aliens are not going to help consequential effects Americans face due to illegal immigration so why not give a country the guidance and tools to address their internal issues? You say Mexico would want people sending them money from America but don't you think they would want in their own best interest to be a thriving, prosperous state because their is incentive in it? Isn't that a goal of any state? And, isn't addressing the internal issues important for political support or else there is risk of dissent, unrest and/or rebellion? Thus making them vulnerable.

I think you make a good point, but at the end of the day, it is in the best interest of a country to have stability and securities (economic,health, jobs, food, school etc) because their is incentive in it then to have their people flee and send them money.

 

[urge]

Stop blaming the Mexicans for our troubles.

We want cheap stuff, thus we need cheap labor. There are plenty of jobs but they only pay a few bucks/hr. Americans don't want to work those. The Mexicans are more than happy to do them.

That rich guy in California gets to enjoy cheap tomatoes, cheap wine, cheap maid service, cheap construction work.... The only thing they trade for it is free healthcare for immigrants.

If you want to fix the problem then pay $5/ tomato, $100/bottle of wine, etc, so that an American can make $20/hr with healthcare, vacations, and retirement paid.

You cannot have your cake and eat it at the same time.

 

[lord_jeebus]

Given that I (and many of us, I imagine) am decended from poor immigrants who weren't well-educated and dealt with decades of inopportune circumstances for the sake of their progeny, who are now mostly very successful and putting more into society than they receive as taxpayers and consumers - it is hard for me to say that similarly motivated foreigners should not also have that chance.

 

[PerolaNegra]

Your screen name suggests hispanic (Italian?) descent, or at least knowledge of the spanish language.

This comment does not.

For starters, these dark-skinned immigrants you refer to are as likely to be Honduran, Venezuelan, Nicaraguan, Columbian, etc. They may actually be passing through the U.S./Mexico border, but they are not by default Mexicans.

I said Mexicans where I live. I am not speaking on other hispanics. I do not think you should be so bold to tell me who lives in my community and who does not.

To think that the U.S. can "pressure" these countries to improve conditions for their citizens is at once idealistic, naive and quasi-imperialistic. It's as though you believe these countries are completely oblivious to the hardships facing their citizens. "Oh, you mean our citizens are unhappy and fleeing for the limitless opportunity of the U.S.? And you want them to stop? Oh, so sorry. We'll get right on those problems, model our country after yours, and put a stop to those pesky immigrants. Sorry we let that get out of hand."


Don't forget the U.S. uses many of these countries to produce goods cheaply, process our waste, etc. To tell them to improve their own conditions so we don't have to deal with their population face-to-face would be a slap in the face.

It is not naive actually. Pressure and encourage. It is in the best interest of the US and the other country. I did not say the other countries will do anything at the United States whim. I said if they evaluate the issue they will see what is in their best national interest. This is the role of all states to do so.

 

[urge]

It is not naive actually. Pressure and encourage. It is in the best interest of the US and the other country. I did not say the other countries will do anything at the United States whim. I said if they evaluate the issue they will see what is in their best national interest. This is the role of all states to do so.

That's just childish.

 

[PerolaNegra]

That's just childish.

I do not know what you mean by that. The way I see it, encouraging the other state to work on its internal issues means they can develop more progressively. And, it is good for the U.S. because there is less threat to their security (not knowing who is coming into country without background check; jobs shortages etc).

 

[urge]

I do not know what you mean by that. The way I see it, encouraging the other state to work on its internal issues means they can develop more progressively. And, it is good for the U.S. because their is no threat to their security (not knowing who is coming into country without background check; jobs shortages etc).

So very childish.

Why do you think people emigrate? - They need money.

For Mexico to stop emigration they need LOTS of money. Do you think the money is gonna come out of the mexican president's behind? You cannot make a country rich just by "encouraging" them. America is broke. We don't even know how to deal with our own problems. Yet, you suggest that we can tell other countries how to fix theirs.

That's the kind of things a 5 y/o would say.

 

[coprolalia]

PN,

I gotta say this thread is really stupid. It appears that even you yourself don't know where you stand on the issue. For example, first you say this...

I think a lot of these people are abused to begin with, in a sense that they are paid essentially "slave" wages so I think to myself that doing such "free" work is the least we can do for them.

Then, you go on to say this...

I just want to know which party is committed to upholding certain principles and morals which make (made?) this country great. Do things legally, pay taxes- that's all I want you know...but it's become a free for all.

Which is it? We should do this "free" work for "slaves" who illegally sneak into our country because it's "the least we can do for them"? Or, people should "do things legally, pay taxes" to prevent a "free for all"?

You seem confused where you even stand.

Look, this has nothing to do with who should or should not get healthcare. Anyone in this country should get healthcare, all the healthcare they need, if they are willing to pay for it. This should stand regardless of where the person is from, what color their skin is, and whether or not they are here illegally.

This whole concept that everyone is entitled to the "million-dollar work-up" is the concept that is flawed. We need to do a better job of telling people what their total healthcare costs is estimated to be based on their diagnosis, and require a retainer (just like our good-natured, always helpful, and humanitarian professional lawyer colleagues do) before we offer full services.

We need to get over this idea that everyone deserves healthcare without the willingness to contribute to its cost. You say you believe in "equity", but having some people pay for the cost of others is far from equitable. What that's actually called, more succinctly, is socialism.

If they can't pay for the care they receive here, they shouldn't come here and expect it. They should swim back across that river and have their damn babies in their home country. Why do you think a large part of the reason they come here in the first place? To have a baby that (a) will get excellent healthcare they aren't going to pay for and (b) to have an "instant citizen" of the United States. This whole idea that simply if you're born in the U.S., even to illegal immigrants, you're an automatic citizen is a stupid one.

I have no sympathy - none whatsoever - for people who are in this country illegally. Sure, some of them sneak in here to make a better life for themselves. But, still doesn't make it right. And, I can equally assure you that a large number of them are that are here are up to no good. I've seen it firsthand.

No sympathy. If we have a problem with the willingness of our citizens to do hard labor in some spinach field in south Texas, that's our problem - and not one we should solve by turning a blind eye to someone sneaking over an unguarded section of the U.S. border. You don't see Canadians "sneaking" into the U.S. in search of a better life, do you?

-copro

 

[PerolaNegra]

So very childish.

Why do you think people emigrate? - They need money.

For Mexico to stop emigration they need LOTS of money. Do you think the money is gonna come out of the mexican president's behind? You cannot make a country rich just by "encouraging" them. America is broke. We don't even know how to deal with our own problems. Yet, you suggest that we can tell other countries how to fix theirs.

That's the kind of things a 5 y/o would say.

I said encourage them to address the issues their people are facing. To build infrastructures within their state that allow for progression and development (and if they need money there are measures of getting it). I did not say stop emmigration by Mexico spending more money on security around their borders. If a country works on alleiving their domestic problems then people will stop having reason to flee. Its not like these things take a short time to do. It takes time.

Which is why I asked by the way, for example, what is Mexico doing to alleiviate the domestic problems that cause people to flee? What kinds of measures are they taking?

I do not think these are things of a 5yr old words. I still have family "back home" who struggle because of an incompetant government that does not aid the internal issues present in the country. I hate that people flee all the time. Its sad especially because they are willing to put their lives on the line to escape. They do not want to flee but do it because they feel they have to. The government needs to take progressive iniative so that people do not feel the need to flee.

 

[PerolaNegra]

PN,

I gotta say this thread is really stupid. It appears that even you yourself don't know where you stand on the issue. For example, first you say this...

Then, you go on to say this...

Which is it? We should do this "free" work for "slaves" who illegally sneak into our country because it's "the least we can do for them"? Or, people should "do things legally, pay taxes" to prevent a "free for all"?

You seem confused where you even stand.

Look, this has nothing to do with who should or should not get healthcare. Anyone in this country should get healthcare, all the healthcare they need, if they are willing to pay for it. This should stand regardless of where the person is from, what color their skin is, and whether or not they are here illegally.

This whole concept that everyone is entitled to the "million-dollar work-up" is the concept that is flawed. We need to do a better job of telling people what their total healthcare costs is estimated to be based on their diagnosis, and require a retainer (just like our good-natured, always helpful, and humanitarian professional lawyer colleagues do) before we offer full services.

We need to get over this idea that everyone deserves healthcare without the willingness to contribute to its cost. You say you believe in "equity", but having some people pay for the cost of others is far from equitable. What that's actually called, more succinctly, is socialism.

If they can't pay for the care they receive here, they shouldn't come here and expect it. They should swim back across that river and have their damn babies in their home country. Why do you think a large part of the reason they come here in the first place? To have a baby that (a) will get excellent healthcare they aren't going to pay for and (b) to have an "instant citizen" of the United States. This whole idea that simply if you're born in the U.S., even to illegal immigrants, you're an automatic citizen is a stupid one.

I have no sympathy - none whatsoever - for people who are in this country illegally. Sure, some of them sneak in here to make a better life for themselves. But, still doesn't make it right. And, I can equally assure you that a large number of them are that are here are up to no good. I've seen it firsthand.

No sympathy. If we have a problem with the willingness of our citizens to do hard labor in some spinach field in south Texas, that's our problem - and not one we should solve by turning a blind eye to someone sneaking over an unguarded section of the U.S. border. You don't see Canadians "sneaking" into the U.S. in search of a better life, do you?

-copro

What? Why are you saying PN? I did not say those things.

 

[toughlife]

I said encourage them to address the issues their people are facing. To build infrastructures within their state that allow for progression and development (and if they need money there are measures of getting it). I did not say stop emmigration by Mexico spending more money on security around their borders. If a country works on alleiving their domestic problems then people will stop having reason to flee. Its not like these things take a short time to do. It takes time.

Which is why I asked by the way, for example, what is Mexico doing to alleiviate the domestic problems that cause people to flee? What kinds of measures are they taking?

I do not think these are things of a 5yr old words. I still have family "back home" who struggle because of an incompetant government that does not aid the internal issues present in the country. I hate that people flee all the time. Its sad especially because they are willing to put their lives on the line to escape. They do not want to flee but do it because they feel they have to. The government needs to take progressive iniative so that people do not feel the need to flee.

So do you or anyone in your family send money to your relatives back home?

 

[Bertelman]

I said Mexicans where I live. I am not speaking on other hispanics. I do not think you should be so bold to tell me who lives in my community and who does not.

I think you don't know what you are talking about. I lived in a border state for most of my life. The hispanics that migrated there could not be categorically described as Mexican. They were also from a variety of Central and South American countries. Most Americans are so blissfully unaware of the rest of the world, that any person with Hispanic features is automatically deemed Mexican. It is surprising in your case because your diction suggests English is not your native language. Thus, your strong desire to limit American immigration is puzzling.

I'm not being bold. I'm just pointing out that you seem to want to help these people, yet you really don't understand who they are.

 

[PerolaNegra]

So do you or anyone in your family send money to your relatives back home?

Yes. Because we have to help our family. Because the government is incompetant and corruptive. Because they love to take advantage of those in diaspora knowing they are going to send money to help their families. But, it would be better (and there is more incentive) if the government addressed internal issues and worked on being economically and socially progressive.

 

[PerolaNegra]

I think you don't know what you are talking about. I lived in a border state for most of my life. The hispanics that migrated there could not be categorically described as Mexican. They were also from a variety of Central and South American countries. Most Americans are so blissfully unaware of the rest of the world, that any person with Hispanic features is automatically deemed Mexican. It is surprising in your case because your diction suggests English is not your native language. Thus, your strong desire to limit American immigration is puzzling.

I'm not being bold. I'm just pointing out that you seem to want to help these people, yet you really don't understand who they are.

In certain cities and regions there are big populations of certain people. It may be a significant Irish community, Philipino community, Nigerian Community, Brazilian community etc. Here we have a large Mexican community. Again, all I have to say to you is that you do not know me or where I live to speak on the people that live here. So what you think and don't actually know means nothing.

 

[coprolalia]

What? Why are you saying PN? I did not say those things.

You're right. My comments were directed to TecmoBowl. Your post was immediately above mine and I just typed your screen name by accident.

Well, TecmoBowl, you started this thread. Any comments? You claim to be an attending, after all. All I can say is you must be at an academic center or working for an AMC.

-copro

 

[TecmoBowl]

Being an Attending doesn't mean Jack****, either at an Academic center or an AMC. It just means I'm a Certified Sheep following the rest of the herd! It's in no way personally directed to anyone or any group, just an inner moral issue that I've had, and I wondered if I'm the only one?

I'm just a bit confused- we went into Medicine because aside from making a living doing good things (mostly), it pays well and is somewhat stable (I know this is open to debate).

Now, I don't want to think about or decide who gets healthcare and who doesn't- we would be failing in our duties probably if we approached each case that way.

Sometimes, I just feel like I"m further propagating some messed up things, in this case "illegal immigration", legitimate taxpayer burden, further obscuring of the voter base (why should someone who is the product of illegal origins determine the fate of someone who came from a rule abiding background)? Yeah I know someone out there is going to say Native Americans are the true original citizens etc. etc., but the bottom line is we live in the here and now, and there are certain rules that we are expected to follow.

I'm just wondering how to come to grips with my daily duties- it's not my job to make political or social decisions, but the system is flawed, and it is taking me (us) in to further continue that flawed path.

I don't care about what Mexico does or what other countries do- I just care that we are being asked (forced?) to partake in something that doesn't make sense in principle, broken laws. It's really a moral dilemma that I shouldn't be having and to me, anything that doesn't seem right, probably isn't right.
I am making all these people (Joe the Plumber!!) who have NO idea what goes on in the health care system to pay for things that they probably don't believe in, and it doesn't feel right to me. But this is the way of things I suppose, we all pay for things we don't believe in. I shouldn't think of these things in my job as a Physician, but I can't seem to ignore some of my concerns, especially when it comes to OB.

This is in no way a Republicans vs Democrats issue to me, I don't care how much Biden paid in taxes, but really I think the issue I bring up that preoccupies me in a microcosm, is something that will loom large in our lifespan (one of many I guess). But, Ron Paul baby! bummer!

 

[coprolalia]

I am making all these people (Joe the Plumber!!) who have NO idea what goes on in the health care system to pay for things that they probably don't believe in, and it doesn't feel right to me.

People have no concept of what constitutes "basic healthcare" versus "the million-dollar work-up". I've said before on this forum, and I'll say it again (paraphrasing):

(1) EMTALA has completely ruined and blurred the distinction of who should get treatment, and how much.

(2) Lack of meaningful tort reform has become a de facto mandate that we need to do everything for every patient, regardless of the perceived futility of our care or the patient's willingness to adhere to our recommendations.

(3) Not disclosing what procedures and medications will cost to a patient, before they are given, has paternalized and taken individual choice out of the equation.

(4) Expecting that everyone who presents to the hospital will get 100% definitive care is going to break the current healthcare model and ruin healthcare.

(5) For-profit private insurance, who has no incentive to pay claims and every incentive to deny coverage (giving their top executives massive year-end bonuses in succesfully accomplishing those things) is ruining healthcare.

(6) The "no risk/no mistakes" model advocated by organizations like JCAHO, and their "solutions" that only create more problems and bureaucracy as well as stifle innovation, are ruining healthcare.

(7) Blurring of the patient-physician relationship to include a "you must do this" in every aspect of patient care along all lines of patient interaction, from the CNA to the dietician to the pharmacist (etc.), is ruining healthcare.

(8) A policy of "everyone gets treatment, we'll worry about the bill later", unlike our dental colleagues, is ruining healthcare.

(9) "Protocolizing" the delivery of treatment, the "one size fits all" model, while potentially creating or increasing certain efficiencies for routine cases, is ruining healthcare, especially when ancillary staff interpret those protocols to mean you, as a physician, can't or aren't allowed to go off the script (and then they threaten to write you up, report you, etc.).

(10) Being required to give treatment, or withold treatment, because it is the law or individual hospital practice (e.g. no privileges to perform abortions, let alone even discuss the option with a patient, at a Catholic hospital, etc.) is ruining healthcare.

When lawyers and politicians have successfully and completely emasculated us and essentially reduced us to glorified technicians, I'm quitting the profession. Until then, they'll have to fight me, kicking and clawing, to the bitter end...

-copro

 

[maldini99]

We need to get over this idea that everyone deserves healthcare without the willingness to contribute to its cost. You say you believe in "equity", but having some people pay for the cost of others is far from equitable. What that's actually called, more succinctly, is socialism.

If they can't pay for the care they receive here, they shouldn't come here and expect it. They should swim back across that river and have their damn babies in their home country. Why do you think a large part of the reason they come here in the first place? To have a baby that (a) will get excellent healthcare they aren't going to pay for and (b) to have an "instant citizen" of the United States. This whole idea that simply if you're born in the U.S., even to illegal immigrants, you're an automatic citizen is a stupid one.

I have no sympathy - none whatsoever - for people who are in this country illegally. Sure, some of them sneak in here to make a better life for themselves. But, still doesn't make it right. And, I can equally assure you that a large number of them are that are here are up to no good. I've seen it firsthand.



-copro

I agree with this. I am a legal immigrant and I am sick of all those stories about the deported Latino/European/Asian families and how it is so horrible for them that they don't have a home now. If you have a head of the family that consciously makes a decision to do something illegal (immigrate), and put his/her family at risk, they will get what they deserve. Before I came to US my family had to sell everything they owned and relocate, so that I could afford school. I have been paying taxes and these ridiculous out of state tuition rates, without the ability to get any loans or work off campus.

And then they want to come up with a law to legalize immigrants that have been in the states for x number of years. If you ask me, I'd deport all of their as ses where they came from.

 

[kraphtymac]

First of all, some basic watching for anybody asking this question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

American can't continue to support illegal immigration. They MUST come here legally, and they MUST be plugged into the system. It is ridiculous to suggest that we should continue to allow illegal immigration. These countries are NOT sending their best and their brightest. They are sending laborers who are removing 2/3 of the money they earn from our society, not paying taxes, and using up our tax-based resources that are established for CITIZENS.

 

[badasshairday]

First of all, some basic watching for anybody asking this question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

American can't continue to support illegal immigration. They MUST come here legally, and they MUST be plugged into the system. It is ridiculous to suggest that we should continue to allow illegal immigration. These countries are NOT sending their best and their brightest. They are sending laborers who are removing 2/3 of the money they earn from our society, not paying taxes, and using up our tax-based resources that are established for CITIZENS.

Illegal immigration supporters are ridiculous. They all take about legalizing all illegals... what about the people who came here legally? I know a family who has done everything legally and the right way, but are still waiting for their green card after 8 years of being here on a visa paying taxes and not living off of the system.

 

[Bertelman]

First of all, some basic watching for anybody asking this question:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7WJeqxuOfQ

American can't continue to support illegal immigration. They MUST come here legally, and they MUST be plugged into the system. It is ridiculous to suggest that we should continue to allow illegal immigration. These countries are NOT sending their best and their brightest. They are sending laborers who are removing 2/3 of the money they earn from our society, not paying taxes, and using up our tax-based resources that are established for CITIZENS.

1) National ID system

2) Stop American citizens from hiring illegal immigrants, they'll quit coming.

If we don't give them what they are looking for, they'll go home. It's easy to say we'll build a wall, but until we remove the incentives for their immigration, they'll always find a way to arrive.

 

[isoman2000]

governments are not sending these people, they are sending themselves, they are risk takers and hard working for the most part, nobody supports illegal immigration but we need a realistic immigration policy as well.

 

[Planktonmd]

I agree with this. I am a legal immigrant and I am sick of all those stories about the deported Latino/European/Asian families and how it is so horrible for them that they don't have a home now. If you have a head of the family that consciously makes a decision to do something illegal (immigrate), and put his/her family at risk, they will get what they deserve. Before I came to US my family had to sell everything they owned and relocate, so that I could afford school. I have been paying taxes and these ridiculous out of state tuition rates, without the ability to get any loans or work off campus.

And then they want to come up with a law to legalize immigrants that have been in the states for x number of years. If you ask me, I'd deport all of their as ses where they came from.

Do you think that people put their family at risk by choice???
You are saying that your family sold everything they own to relocate, do you think that these people who you want to deport have anything to sell??
People cross the desert and risk their lives because they are desperate, because they have no other choice.
If you were lucky and your parents found a legal way to come to this country that does not give you the right to criticize people who are not as lucky as you are.
And if you say that your family sold everything to relocate to this country this makes me think that you probably came because you won a visa through the stupid visa lottery system, do you think winning the visa lottery makes you a better immigrant than the poor guy who did not win and had to cross the desert to get here???
Does winning the lottery make you a better person??

 

[maldini99]

Do you think that people put their family at risk by choice???
You are saying that your family sold everything they own to relocate, do you think that these people who you want to deport have anything to sell??
People cross the desert and risk their lives because they are desperate, because they have no other choice.
If you were lucky and your parents found a legal way to come to this country that does not give you the right to criticize people who are not as lucky as you are.
And if you say that your family sold everything to relocate to this country this makes me think that you probably came because you won a visa through the stupid visa lottery system, do you think winning the visa lottery makes you a better immigrant than the poor guy who did not win and had to cross the desert to get here???
Does winning the lottery make you a better person??

Right, right i see what you're saying. so just because you don't have a choice, it's ok to do something illegal, hell while you're at it, if they are short with the money while in the states, why don't they just rob a few places (it's ok since they don't have a choice), just to get on their feet. IT'S OKAY, YOU GOTTA DO WHAT YOU GOTTA DO.

You think if I had a green card (won on the lottery, haha) that I would still be paying out of state tuition and be restricted to work on campus?! Why dont you re-read my post, and try to draw conclusions (working on campus,out of state fees=no green card=still international student). Hopefully you will realize from that that I am by myself here, and that my family is still back home living in 300 sq ft (renting), waiting for me to do something here. LEGALLY!!!
so i guess the "stupid green card lottery" theory goes out the window...(and me being better than illegal immigrants, haha)

I think I do have the right to criticize the illegal immigrants. Because it makes me look like an idiot by doing things by the book when there are other ways that are way easier.

If in medical school someone cheated their way through, while you worked really hard on the other hand, and in the end you guys get the same grades (or residency or whatever), would you be mad, or would you say he/she didn't have a choice?!

 

[maceo]

Stop blaming the Mexicans for our troubles.

We want cheap stuff, thus we need cheap labor. There are plenty of jobs but they only pay a few bucks/hr. Americans don't want to work those. The Mexicans are more than happy to do them.

That rich guy in California gets to enjoy cheap tomatoes, cheap wine, cheap maid service, cheap construction work.... The only thing they trade for it is free healthcare for immigrants.

If you want to fix the problem then pay $5/ tomato, $100/bottle of wine, etc, so that an American can make $20/hr with healthcare, vacations, and retirement paid.

You cannot have your cake and eat it at the same time.

very good insight.

You should run for office.

Americans want their hotel beds made in the morning, and a totally spotless room when they come back to their rooms and they dont wanna pay more than 79 dollars for their room.

If it werent for immigrants this would not be able to be done. We couldnt even find americans to do the job let alone pay them 15 bucks an hour to do it with benefits. Immigrants even illegals contribute greatly to the economy.

All americans want is the corner office with a computer screen and and money flowing into their bank account. and they want it NOW. No work involved.