A question about masters degree and counseling/clinical psychology

[Wolfy2449]

My first plan was to immediately go from bachelors to a psyd/phd but because i am not sure if i will be able to have enough time/money to get there fast enough i need some information about masters degrees just so i can have a plan b and be able to find work faster.


My psychology teacher told me that with a masters you can do counseling which is a little limited compared to a phd/psyd because you mainly focus on solving the problems people have now or giving guidance instead of analyzing and trying to find whats the true issue/reason people act that way and like she said i would not be satisfied with something like that since i like to go into detail and find the true mental issue/pattern behind a certain behavior.
So my question is are there any masters programs(because i havent searched yet) that focus on clinical psychology instead of counseling and also allow you to get licensed after graduation? So hopefully i can find a work and be able to at least partially pay for a phd/psyd program.


Also since psychology is such a popular field and i am sure there are many people with a masters degree are there any big issues with finding employment with a masters? I know every job has problems but i would like a more detailed view of the current situation.(Also whats the employment rate for masters and whats the rate for psyd/phd?)

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[LivingOffLoans]

In states where you can get licensed at the master's level, you can perform psychotherapy in the same manner as any doctorate level clinician. There are very few to no differences between the two when it comes to clinical counseling. If you're not interested in research, assessment, and don't want to be a professor, and you just want to be a therapist, then just quit at your master's degree if your state allows you to get licensed with one. To do otherwise and get a doctorate because you want to call yourself doctor is foolish, a waste of time, and a loss in money over your lifetime earnings. There are many advantages to being a master's level clinician, including an easier time getting on insurance panels (because master's rates are cheaper than a doctorate) and a competitive edge in job acquisition (for the same reason: $).

 

[Psychadelic2012]

My psychology teacher told me that with a masters you can do counseling which is a little limited compared to a phd/psyd because you mainly focus on solving the problems people have now or giving guidance instead of analyzing and trying to find whats the true issue/reason people act that way and like she said i would not be satisfied with something like that since i like to go into detail and find the true mental issue/pattern behind a certain behavior.

I think your overall plan is a good idea and I agree with LoL. I did this myself--a licensable master's in clinical psychology (good training in assessment, I did a thesis and a practicum). When I graduate, if I don't get into a doctoral program, I'm still employable either as a clinician or research professional, and I can go into private practice eventually. They're out there. Do a Google search.

However, what your psychology teacher said doesn't make sense, was very unclear, or was misinterpreted. The major difference between masters- and doctoral-level training is that doctoral-level clinicians specialize in assessment and testing. By assessment, I mean their scope of practice includes issuing and interpreting batteries of diagnostic tests. Either practitioner will "analyze" the client's problem, as that is the only way to determine how to treat them--this analysis doesn't have to be testing, it can be done several ways. There is also an argument for doctoral-level clinicians adopting a specific clinical specialty, although any level of practitioner can certainly do this.

 

[mrscruff]

You may want to look into a 48-60 credit hour Master's in Counseling Psychology or Clinical Psychology (with a thesis) for the purpose becoming a Psychological Examiner (that's the title in TN, but I'm not sure if it's different in other states.).

You would then have the educational credentials to perform counseling services (under the supervision of another licensed professional until you gained enough hours to become a Senior Psychological Examiner, at least in TN anyway), but you would also be qualified to perform the legally protected Psychology tests/ examinations such as Stanford-Binet IQ, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, and other psychometric, diagnostical tools. Make sure that the program mandates practicum and internship experiences, however, because you wouldn't want to graduate only to discover that your state's license requires 600 hours or so of clinical experience!

On this career path, you get the job prospects of counseling with the self-edifying opportunity to conduct APA-restricted psychological testing (something your LPCs, LMFTs, and LCSWs will not have the authority to perform). Also, as a Master's-level clinician, you will probably be more desirable to agencies and insurance companies than a pure Licensed Psychologist. Why? You will virtually have the same abilities and authorities (minus the intense research background and teaching credibility) but at a salary/fee level that the organization can afford to shell out on a regular basis.

Hopefully, this route will make you feel more fulfilled than the more straightforward options available. Additionally, becoming a Psych. Examiner with a counseling emphasis should give you many marketable skills (a combination of theory, practice, and research literacy). If the doctorate still appeals to you later, then you should be in good shape to enter into a program with not only more experience, but also more financial sources.

Time, money, and the job market are essential to consider, especially these days. And I agree with the others: getting a doctorate solely for a title and some sense of pride is an impractical and short-sighted perspective. If a degree doesn't match your career passions and/or aspirations, then it is not worth it.

Hope this helps! 😀

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

You may want to look into a 48-60 credit hour Master's in Counseling Psychology or Clinical Psychology (with a thesis) for the purpose becoming a Psychological Examiner (that's the title in TN, but I'm not sure if it's different in other states.).

You would then have the educational credentials to perform counseling services (under the supervision of another licensed professional until you gained enough hours to become a Senior Psychological Examiner, at least in TN anyway), but you would also be qualified to perform the legally protected Psychology tests/ examinations such as Stanford-Binet IQ, the Minnesota Multiphasic Personality Inventory, and other psychometric, diagnostical tools. Make sure that the program mandates practicum and internship experiences, however, because you wouldn't want to graduate only to discover that your state's license requires 600 hours or so of clinical experience!

This isn't common in other states, so YMMV about being able to do any psychological assessment. I actually have never heard of this, but I'm not familiar with all of the different state requirements and allowances. If you want to do assessment, go through all of the proper training of a doctoral program, as the above sounds like a loophole that does not allow for proper training.

 

[mrscruff]

This isn't common in other states, so YMMV about being able to do any psychological assessment. I actually have never heard of this, but I'm not familiar with all of the different state requirements and allowances. If you want to do assessment, go through all of the proper training of a doctoral program, as the above sounds like a loophole that does not allow for proper training.

I apologize if I come across as defensive, but I would not call it a "loophole" if such training has been recognized by a state health board, requiring similar course requirements, supervision, and continuing education just like any other Master's clinician. Such a label is inappropriate for those who choose this career path and do as well of a job as the doctoral clinician. Arkansas has a similar job title, and Psych. Examiners in general seem to be synonymous with a Psychological Assistant.

I understand your meaning of "proper training" when it comes to going through a doctoral program governed by a respected body, but I was simply listing a legitimate alternative. Each individual, of course, has to research the route that he or she wants to take, and I believe that such a process requires that all options be layed upon the table. Using the phrase "get a doctorate" as a cure-all is a highly simple answer that does not always take into account a person's time, money, and personality. Even in the worst-case scenario, the route which I have suggested offers financial prospects, marketability, and preparation for a future docorate, most of which must be postponed while working towards a doctorate degree that may not even include a fellowship or an assistantship. Even taking the National Counselor Examination would be an option under this hypothetical plan.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Also, as a Master's-level clinician, you will probably be more desirable to agencies and insurance companies than a pure Licensed Psychologist. Why? You will virtually have the same abilities and authorities (minus the intense research background and teaching credibility) but at a salary/fee level that the organization can afford to shell out on a regular basis.

It sounds like you want the ability to practice like a doctorally trained psychologist....but without having to do the training. The difference between a Masters and a Doctorate IS NOT JUST research and the ability to teach. People need to stop posting this because it is not true. Doctoral training is not just adding some research classes and TA'ing some courses. The authority is quite different, particularly in regard to insurance billing, supervision, and a host of other areas.

I've lectured at the MS, Specialist, and Doctoral level....and the training is Apples v. Oranges v. Pears. There are large differences between the depth and breadth at each level, even if all three programs have a course named "Adult Assessment." The goals and objectives for each group is different. For instance, having an in-depth discussion about the psychometric properties of the WAIS-IV compared to the Woodcock Johnson is not something that would be appropriate outside of a doctoral class because of the required statistical understanding. This level of understanding is required for proper test selection.

I had a case the other day where I had WJ scores from a patient's childhood, and I had to sort out how they compared to a WASI that was done awhile back, and then to my neuropsych battery. If I don't understand the underlying psychometric properties of each assessment, I cannot properly compare the data and account for the variance in what and how each assessment measures what it is proported to measure.

I apologize if I come across as defensive, but I would not call it a "loophole" if such training has been recognized by a state health board, requiring similar course requirements, supervision, and continuing education just like any other Master's clinician.

*edit*

Nevermind....we should just agree to disagree.

 

[Wolfy2449]

Hmm so the main difference between clinical psychologist with masters or phd/psyd is that phd can teach and conduct research so if i am mainly interested in therapy a phd/psyd would only help me at increasing my chances for employment right? There arent any other big differences?
Both can get licensed psychologist after they graduate and start working


Also, masters in counseling and masters in clinical psychology are 2 different things correct?

 

[wigflip]

Hmm so the main difference between clinical psychologist with masters or phd/psyd is that phd can teach and conduct research so if i am mainly interested in therapy a phd/psyd would only help me at increasing my chances for employment right? There arent any other big differences?
Both can get licensed psychologist after they graduate and start working


Also, masters in counseling and masters in clinical psychology are 2 different things correct?

Hi Wolfy,

I think you'd benefit from combing through a variety of threads on both the masters and doctoral psych forums. This would help you clarify the differences between masters level and doctoral level training, licensure, and careers. A few quick notes:

1. Masters level practitioners aren't "psychologists"--that term is reserved for doctoral level practitioners.

2. People with masters degrees can teach and do research (the latter provided that they have human subjects approval from the relevant institutions). You'll discover more nuances about the fields by taking some time with the various threads on these two forums. Good luck!

 

[LivingOffLoans]

Hmm so the main difference between clinical psychologist with masters or phd/psyd is that phd can teach and conduct research so if i am mainly interested in therapy a phd/psyd would only help me at increasing my chances for employment right? There arent any other big differences?
Both can get licensed psychologist after they graduate and start working

Also, masters in counseling and masters in clinical psychology are 2 different things correct?

There really is no difference that I know of between a clinical and counseling master's degree. If you're looking to do psychotherapy, either will be fine.

A doctorate will not increase your chances for employment (at least not in psychotherapy). Quite the opposite. As I said above, master's clinicians are cheaper for employers and insurance panels to pay, so you will actually have an advantage over doctorates in this area. If you want to teach at a university though, you have a better chance with a doctorate. You could still teach at community colleges though with a master's.

After you graduate, you will not be allowed to get licensed right away. You will have to do anywhere from 1-2 years of additional clinical hours after graduation before you can sit in on the licensure exam. However, you will be paid for your work. It will be a lot better than your practicum placement or internship, both of which rarely even offer a stipend.

 

[Wolfy2449]

Hmm i mainly asked about differences because from the things i read online counseling and clinical psychology are 2 different things. Counseling is mainly guidance and help dealing with problems instead of investigating the issue deeply.

So even after i get my masters degree i need to find some work, i assume work in clinics since you dont have a license??? and i assume you need a supervisor right??

And when you get the license you are a licensed psychotherapist??since you are not a psychologist with a masters.

Also it says that with a masters you can be mft/lpc/lpa but isnt there any more general tree where you can work with individual patients with different issues at a clinical level??(Clinical level mainly because i am still confused from the whole counseling vs clinical psychology thing based on what i found)

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Hmm i mainly asked about differences because from the things i read online counseling and clinical psychology are 2 different things. Counseling is mainly guidance and help dealing with problems instead of investigating the issue deeply.

So even after i get my masters degree i need to find some work, i assume work in clinics since you dont have a license??? and i assume you need a supervisor right??

And when you get the license you are a licensed psychotherapist??since you are not a psychologist with a masters.

Regardless of the degree, there will be a period of time after you receive your degree, but before you are license where you will have to complete hours towards your licensure. During this time you would work somewhere under the supervision of a licensed person in that field (so Licensed Counselor if you were a counseling student, etc). As for your title, it will be in line with your degree:

Social Work = Licensed Social Worker
Mental Health Counselor = Licensed Mental Health Counselor

etc.

Also it says that with a masters you can be mft/lpc/lpa but isnt there any more general tree where you can work with individual patients with different issues at a clinical level??(Clinical level mainly because i am still confused from the whole counseling vs clinical psychology thing based on what i found)

There are degrees (MS in Counseling, MS in Social Work, MS in Family Therapy, etc) and then there are licensures (LMHC, MSW, LMFT, etc.). As for your patient population, you are only restricted by your scope of practice (what you have been trained to do), not really your license. If all of your training was for individual counseling, you probably shouldn't jump right into family counseling until you get some mentorship working with families...but you aren't legally forbidden from working with families.

Each degree is based on training within a specific discipline, which haved their own theories and approaches to therapy. For instance, I know an MFT program that teaches primarily how to work with families, and they use a "solution-focused" approach to therapy. You can see whatever patients you want (legally), and you can practice whatever approach you want, though you need to make sure that you are doing so ethically. They have whole courses that teach this stuff, but the above is a quick and dirty explanation.

 

[wigflip]

Regardless of the degree, there will be a period of time after you receive your degree, but before you are license where you will have to complete hours towards your licensure. During this time you would work somewhere under the supervision of a licensed person in that field (so Licensed Counselor if you were a counseling student, etc).

Note that it takes some people longer to complete their post-degree, pre-licensure hours than others, and in some states where there are particularly grueling budget issues (like CA), you may finish your hours only to find that the system is backed up and your ability to become licensed is deferred for months. Not trying to sound gloomy, just suggesting that the path can be a little longer than anticipated...

 

[shanonlee]

Hmm i mainly asked about differences because from the things i read online counseling and clinical psychology are 2 different things. Counseling is mainly guidance and help dealing with problems instead of investigating the issue deeply.

So even after i get my masters degree i need to find some work, i assume work in clinics since you dont have a license??? and i assume you need a supervisor right??

And when you get the license you are a licensed psychotherapist??since you are not a psychologist with a masters.

Also it says that with a masters you can be mft/lpc/lpa but isnt there any more general tree where you can work with individual patients with different issues at a clinical level??(Clinical level mainly because i am still confused from the whole counseling vs clinical psychology thing based on what i found)

To save yourself time and confusion, your best bet would be to define specific career goals and then do some independent research to determine how they can be accomplished. I know that I want to be in private practice as either an LPC, or LMHC. I recently transferred from a clinical counseling program into a mental health counseling program for several reasons. I was uninspired by my curriculum. I want to be able to read, analyze and apply research results - but I don't want to go in too much depth designing research projects and compiling statistical data. The clinical counseling program wasn't a good match for me. As a consequence, I will also pursuing a PsyD and not a PhD. I've read that that may disqualify me from teaching at a university level and that it is easier to receive funding/aid for PHD programs - but I am ok with that. For practical purposes, I am currently interviewing for positions within various residential treatment facilities where I can be exposed to a clinical environment and accumulate supervision hours when needed for licensing. I would not waste my time on any program that is not a licensure program, whether or not you intend to become licensed immediately. Verify school accreditation and ensure the program prepares you to meet your state licensing requirements. Best wishes on whatever you decide.

Sidenote: I recently began pre-marital counseling and received way more referrals for Masters-level clinicians than Doctoral-level. AND everyone lists themselves as "Doctor" - go figure.

 

[paramour]

This isn't common in other states, so YMMV about being able to do any psychological assessment. I actually have never heard of this, but I'm not familiar with all of the different state requirements and allowances. If you want to do assessment, go through all of the proper training of a doctoral program, as the above sounds like a loophole that does not allow for proper training.

T4C, I'm not sure how common it is but, for the record, I actually have heard of it as my master's degree technically made me eligible to do the same (i.e., go be a psych examiner) if I were to go complete additional supervision requirements first.

Psych examiners are allowed to administer and interpret tests, although dependent upon the facility, there are some places that prefer you simply administer and then rely upon a psychologist to evaluate your results. They're also allowed to make recommendations, treatment plans, etc.

Of course, having said all of this, even though I could technically use my master's degree to go out and do this, I also do not believe that the education and training I received at that time was adequate to administer/interpret any psych tests without a helluva lot of additional education/training. Perhaps the additional supervision requirement they require afterward would be adequate, but I highly doubt it after having gone through my doctoral program and the education/training to do those exact things there.

 

[LivingOffLoans]

Not trying to sound gloomy...

and yet every post I have seen from you, I have gotten the 'gloomy' impression.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

It looks like TN ammended their statutes to discontinue the licensure of Psychological Examiners:

Title 63 Professions Of The Healing Arts
Chapter 11 Psychologists
Part 2 General Provisions​

Tenn. Code Ann. § 63-11-207 (2011)
63-11-207. Qualifications and application to practice as examiner -- Expiration of period to issue licenses -- Certification of psychological assistants.

(4) No new psychological examiner licenses shall be issued for applications received by the board after December 31, 2004.

This clause appears to nullify the opportunity to become a Senior Psychological Examiner for anyone who isn't already a licensed as a Psychological Examiner, as it requires at least 5 years of practice and supervision as a Psychological Examiner before you can apply for "Senior" status.

I thought this was the case, as I looked up TN licensing laws last year for a possible job opportunity, and I remember having to wade through a ton of statutes to find the licensure requirements.

 

[paramour]

It looks like TN ammended their statutes to discontinue the licensure of Psychological Examiners:

I'm not from TN 😉, and I know my state still allows for them (as do a few other places that I know of--not that I suspect they're all that common).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I'm not from TN 😉, and I know my state still allows for them (as do a few other places that I know of--not that I suspect they're all that common).

mrscruff originally referenced TN, which is why I referenced TN. I've read through more state's licensure requirements than I care to remember (part of the fun job hunting process), I just couldn't remember if TN was one of them. 😀

 

[paramour]

mrscruff originally referenced TN, which is why I referenced TN. 😀

Yep, I know. Simply letting you know they still exist in places other than the backwaters of TN (granted, we're still in the backwaters).

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Yep, I know. Simply letting you know they still exist in places other than the backwaters of TN (granted, we're still in the backwaters).

I really like TN! I've never been to Knoxville, but Nashville is on my short list of places I wouldn't mind working. 😀

 

[wigflip]

and yet every post I have seen from you, I have gotten the 'gloomy' impression.

Zing! Well played.

And thanks for reminding me to not bother to offer commiseration again the next time you post about your 50K/year debt load and none-too-bright classmates.

 

[paramour]

I really like TN! I've never been to Knoxville, but Nashville is on my short list of places I wouldn't mind working. 😀

Although I'm not from TN, I've lived there previously and I have relatives in some redneck towns here & there, so I am a bit familiar with the state. I have no desire to live in The South again, however, but there are parts of TN that aren't so bad. Nashville is a decent enough area, and some of its 'burbs are "really" nice. (Of course, I could be basing this primarily upon my interest in hockey and their version of the "mountains." )

 

[LivingOffLoans]

Zing! Well played.

And thanks for reminding me to not bother to offer commiseration again the next time you post about your 50K/year debt load and none-too-bright classmates.

Take it for what it is. You contribute good knowledge around here, but my experience of your posts is a lack in optimism. But maybe I am just projecting 😕