A question about PM&R and Interventional Spine

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Happy613

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Hi!

I was hoping if someone could explain to me what the deal is with PM&R and interventional spine? I am planning on applying for a PM&R reisdency and I was a bit concerned by some of the things I have read on this message board regarding the ability of rehab docs to do these procedures in the future.

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PMR-Pain fellows can do anything that any ANES-Pain fellow can do. Pluses and minuses to both. My biased opinion as a PMR-Pain guy is that I am a much better diagnostician than my ANES counterpart, we have the same interventional skills (varies widely based on training- not on background, and personal abilities/aptiutude), and if a difficult patient loses an airway on the table- I call 911 and try my best to secure the airway, the ANES doc does what they do with much more aplomb.

PMR-Pain is not going away, it is growing by leaps and bounds. The future will be one of political contention, run by small minded people who care little about the patients and lots about protecting "their turf".

My 2cents.
 
lobelsteve said:
PMR-Pain fellows can do anything that any ANES-Pain fellow can do. Pluses and minuses to both. My biased opinion as a PMR-Pain guy is that I am a much better diagnostician than my ANES counterpart, we have the same interventional skills (varies widely based on training- not on background, and personal abilities/aptiutude), and if a difficult patient loses an airway on the table- I call 911 and try my best to secure the airway, the ANES doc does what they do with much more aplomb.

PMR-Pain is not going away, it is growing by leaps and bounds. The future will be one of political contention, run by small minded people who care little about the patients and lots about protecting "their turf".

My 2cents.
Let me start by acknowledging that I am a gadfly, and always seem to do this with minimal tact. That said, let me take issue with my colleague -

PM&R is a little field in terms of number of practitioners, but encompasses a huge array of foci (EMG, TBI, SCI, stroke, pain, spine, sports, etc, etc, etc). Anesthesia is similarly broad in its scope. In the main (yes Steve, I know you were a pain doc from your nascent development on, but for most of us) most or us garner the vast majority of our knowledge base and skill sets during our fellowships. How you got to your fellowship is less important than that you are interested enough to actively acquire the knowledge to be a highly skilled diagnostician, clinician, and interventionalist.

I know lots of incredibly smart interventionists who are anesthesia trained, and lots who are PM&R trained. I know an equal number of each I would not trust to an injection on a dead cat. The PM&R myth that we are better suited to be good at this line of work stems from out need to puff ourselves up as no one knows what the heck a physiatrist is, or what we do. Rather than making overly broad generalizations regarding interventionists as a whole, lets look at the individual practitioner, and focus on his knowledge and skills. Belittling our colleagues and their training lowers us, and makes for a fractious, rather than integrated field.

Pain docs snipe at each other all the time. Some folks on this board profess to want to work together, and then in the next breath belittle whole classes of others in the field.

I see no reason why you can't be a good pain doc, whether you do an anesthesia, PM&R, or other residency, so long as, at the end of the day, you care about doing quality work.

Rodney King said:
Can we all get along?
 
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lobelsteve said:
PMR-Pain fellows can do anything that any ANES-Pain fellow can do. Pluses and minuses to both. My biased opinion as a PMR-Pain guy is that I am a much better diagnostician than my ANES counterpart, we have the same interventional skills (varies widely based on training- not on background, and personal abilities/aptiutude), and if a difficult patient loses an airway on the table- I call 911 and try my best to secure the airway, the ANES doc does what they do with much more aplomb.

PMR-Pain is not going away, it is growing by leaps and bounds. The future will be one of political contention, run by small minded people who care little about the patients and lots about protecting "their turf".

My 2cents.

First of all, I am a pain fellow and an Anesthesiologist which is not anesthesia only. In fact, It should be called a periopertive medical specialist. In the OR, I am the cardiologist, endocrinologist, and any other ologist you can think of. My job is to keep the surgeons from succesfully killing the patients. Furthermore, depending on your training and your knowledge you and anyone else regardless of their feild may be better than you. Your bias is incorrect and I guarantee you that on any day of the week I can go head to head with you you clinically and diagnostically in the medical field for any sick patient you may have. Not to say that every anesthesiologist can do that or that every PMR specialist can do that.
If you think that just securing the airway your done, you definately dont know anything about medicine. Check your skills before entering the room please.

I dont understand why there is this crap b/w gas and PMR. We are both in feild and should respect each other.
 
C'mon guys. There are local turf wars (see the recent posts), and their are national turf wars of both academics and politics. My comments regarding ANES better able to manage an airway should be taken as a compliment. I do not know any PM&R trained folks getting adequate exposure MAC, intubation, combitube, etc. I also do not know any anesthesia programs training their residents in musculoskeletal care, sports medicine, and CAM.

If somebody could standardize a competition for diagnostic abilities between PM&R residents vs. anesthesia residents, I'd through down some coin on the rehab guys. Maybe a dumb old jock who has been playing amaterur orthopod for too many years before going to med school, but a recall learning a lot in my training as it relates to MSk, nothing as it relates to Pain, and less than nothing about regional/airway/OR anesthesia.

Not trying to start a flame war, but I believe it is the purview of PMR to be better MSk than ANES. I'd say the exact same thing for interventional radiology and neurology. The training is geared differently.

Now PAZ, if you did not get good training in residency about MSk, blame your PD. I blamed mine so much.....well that is another story. I typed 😴 so much...
 
Perhaps PASSOR should add a more expansive airway training course....I have taught airway management for a couple of years at PASSOR but I see the need for more. On the other hand, wouldn't it be nice if ISIS taught a good musculoskeletal exam. Of course weekend warrior courses will not create proficiency in either area, but perhaps musculoskeletal training will teach us to look beyond the top 10 differential diagnoses of low back pain and instead concentrate on mechanics. On the other hand additional airway training for PM&R may not make a slick intubationist, but perhaps would avert disaster by having additional tools to use in the tool kit. Lets take the skills we have and find a way to share with one another in formal courses.....
 
I've talked to friends in Anes and wantedto setup to come by their OR's just to watch them tube people. Mallampati, IDS, Lemon all mean nothing to me clinically as I have zero exposure. If I ever have to, I will be relying on ACLS skills and that makes me feel bad for my patient. I am competent, but nowhere near as skilled as I would like to be. I would gladly go to a weekend warrior course if it had CME and was for airway management for the practicing physician. 🙁

I would gladly teach a MSk medicine course. 1 day axial spine, 1 day joints.
We can even skip the whole eponynomous lecture and that would save hours listing the names of orthopods who rename tests if they do it with the pinky finger extended vs close in to the hand. 😀
 
lobelsteve said:
I've talked to friends in Anes and wantedto setup to come by their OR's just to watch them tube people. Mallampati, IDS, Lemon all mean nothing to me clinically as I have zero exposure. If I ever have to, I will be relying on ACLS skills and that makes me feel bad for my patient. I am competent, but nowhere near as skilled as I would like to be. I would gladly go to a weekend warrior course if it had CME and was for airway management for the practicing physician. 🙁

I would gladly teach a MSk medicine course. 1 day axial spine, 1 day joints.
We can even skip the whole eponynomous lecture and that would save hours listing the names of orthopods who rename tests if they do it with the pinky finger extended vs close in to the hand. 😀

Kudos to lobelsteve for candidly identifying areas where he sees room for improvement. Although I have only been following this list for a brief time, lobelsteve is the first to show the spirit I was hoping to find. Honest appraisal of one's skills instead of puffing up behind convenient fronts -- this the approach which will enable us candidly identify any areas of shortcomings missed by our respective fields and to ultimately provide the highest quality of spine intervention care, whether our training be pmr, anesthesia, radiology, etc. based.

Humility is a virtue, it is the still small voice behind the clamour of the voices of "power," "money," and "presige."
 
Happy613 said:
Hi!

I was hoping if someone could explain to me what the deal is with PM&R and interventional spine? I am planning on applying for a PM&R reisdency and I was a bit concerned by some of the things I have read on this message board regarding the ability of rehab docs to do these procedures in the future.


I really wouldn't worry too much about it. While this is something that many young Physiatrists are definitely paranoid about, Musculoskeletal Medicine and Non-operative spine care is dominantly popular amoungst graduating Physiatry residents at the present time.

It's difficult to shut down an entire specialty, more so one that now has produced significant contributors to academic pain medicine and spine care.
The demand for pain (or spine) docs with good musculoskeletal and interventional skills is high, and in my opinion, cannot be adequately met by the restricted yearly number of graduating ACGME pain fellows.
 
md2k said:
I dont understand why there is this crap b/w gas and PMR. We are both in feild and should respect each other.

Some of the best pain medicine collaborations I have seen (in major metropolitan areas) occur in private practice. Experienced anesthesiologists working with experienced Physiatrists.

Why is that? Isn't that ass backwards? What's up with academics in pain medicine?

At my institution, patients referred for treatment of back or neck pain are run through surgeons, anesthesiologists, neurologists and physiatrists over a course of 8 months.
They get a cookie cutter course of PT, followed by a trial of TCAs and opioids, followed by the standard algorithm of diagnostic blocks and procedures, followed by an EMG or 2, followed by a PMR eval for functional restoration.

During fellowship interviews last year at institutions where PM&R and Anesthesia both did interventional procedures, there was often an atmosphere of "yeah, our way, and what those guys down the hall are doing"

Now, I know some institutions actually practice what they preach (interdisciplinary that is), but anyone with vastly different experiences?
 
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